Communism fell, will capitalism be next?

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posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 11:46 AM
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I'm from the uk and I was drunk one night and wrote this on another forum about a month back.

Read below:-


Start our own Political Party or Political revolution? Should We? I mean I'm serious about this! I mean we are all fed up to the back teeth of Tories and Labour being very incompetent, We need a decent alternative and sure the majority do. Nothing in this world or our country seems to go right. Our country/world is in decline! Everybodies at each others throats. Lots of people are not happy with their lifes and very unsure about their futures. I see a class and generation war coming on very soon because todays generation wont be sure they will have a pension. Capitalism is the main colprit for global terrorism, disasters, famine, poverty and world problems.


Reading it again now and got me thinking. I'm getting a feeling as communism has fallen in alot of countrys like russia. Do you think capitalism will fall in the westen world like in the U.s and europe next? I'm getting a feeling this could happen. How would this effect the world and what will replace it?

what do you reckon?

cheers cb.




posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:01 PM
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Coolbreeze its interesting that you made this post here. are you familiar with some of the online documentation on the New World Order / illuminati /masons?

i cant give you a link but if you research it you will find that there are conspiracy theories that both capitalism and communism were "created" and will be "destroyed" and replaced with a new system ...which would actually be the "New World Order." Goes along the lines of thesis and antithesis with the final result being NWO.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:07 PM
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ok i got off my lazy ass and got you some links:


www.cuttingedge.org...
www.biblebelievers.org.au...

both pretty cool links explaining what i was trying to get at earlier.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:11 PM
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ok i got you some links:


www.cuttingedge.org...
www.biblebelievers.org.au...

both pretty cool links explaining what i was trying to get at earlier.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:20 PM
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Communism fell because it was ideology flawed and couldn't compete against capitalism.

Capitalism will mostly likely continue to hundreds of years if not longer, there isn't anything practical to replace it.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:28 PM
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For better or worse, capitalism is based on human greed, which is something that will always be around. In one form or another, capitalism has been present since civilization began, and will be with us until it ends.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by apw100
For better or worse, capitalism is based on human greed, which is something that will always be around. In one form or another, capitalism has been present since civilization began, and will be with us until it ends.


Capitalism focus's human greed and puts it into a productive form.
Sadly the huge corporations have become so greedy they have ascended above standard capitalism and become super-capitalists, which means extra corrupt, power lust etc



posted on Nov, 3 2004 @ 04:07 PM
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I agree there must come a change. The sooner the better!

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"Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable." - John F. Kennedy

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Maybe it is time to summarize most of today's problems.
Pollution (cars, factories, farms), corruption (companies, politics, rich individuals, organisations), wars, unexplained sicness/deaths, social unrest, thiefs, madmen and terrorists.

Except sicnesses, madmen and maybe terrorists, these problems is caused by money:

pollution
-factories does it to save money for their (often) already rich owners.
-cars (boats, plains) because oil companies benefit from it and car companies are afraid to change their production to make electric cars; people might not buy electric cars.

corruptions, wars, theft
-In africa they fight over gold and diamond because of its value
-Bush fight for oil for its value to his friends (wich is corruption too)
-theft everywhere. It is done by many otherwise normal people and it cause anger and social unrest among the rest of us.
-police (and fbi) is misused by politicans and/or rich for their own causes. Fbi have prevented many americans from engaging in political protest marches. I would have to view this as corruption as police and fbi should not be engaged in politics.

All this happens because of money. So what would happen if we change form a money-depending society to money-free one?
Factories would have no reason not to build pollution filters for air and water.
Car companies could safely make only electric cars. And there don't have to be as many car factories as there is now.
Bandit armies in afrika would no longer have a reason to fight each others/goverments as it would be pointless (they fight over gold and diamond resourches). The bandit groups would hopefully disband.
What use is oil for electric cars? One still need some for airplains and rockets, but the pollution would be nothing compared to now.
No reason to steal when one don't have to. Or if some fool steal anyway one can easily replace the missing item.

History shows that our money society does not work. For hundred of years we have tried in various ways to make it work. Well, it's soon 2005 and it still don't work! (all the poor, all the homeless, all suffering and deaths caused by money prove (for me anyway) that the money society does not work. Some insane people might think it must be like that, but I, at least, can not accept such a wiew of it)
Money is only a thing. It is we who make it, not the other way around. When a thing make so much trouble for us as money do, I'd say; let us throw it away! A society need people to work, not money. Even today society is made up by people (we are affected by friends, colleagues, local politicans or organizations deciding things that influece us) for people. Money is only playing an indirectly role in this; they might decide to demolish your house for the new road as it's cheaper for them than making it go around your house. So my hope is that we don't need to change the world upside down in order to change from money-depending to money-free society.
My thought is that money-free society will be just like now; only remove banks, insurance companies and stock markeds and you're there. I could be wrong and we might have to change or organize society differently and that is why I don't suggest we switch to money-free permanently just yet. I suggest we could try it out for 10 years, maybe. I like round numbers


So my suggestion is;
we try money-free society for a 10 years periode. In those years we can try different aproach of how to organize it and find one wich most are happy with. A countrys population must decide if they want to be a part of this money-free expriment.
As it is a test periode all money, prices, taxes and all is frozen at the time of the change.
When those 10 years nears its conclusion we'll see what we've learned and tell the population. Then the population can choose to 1. try it for new 10 years, 2. go back to money-society, 3. continue money-free society forever after.

What is needed for money-free society to work;
jobs. No matter what kind of society we invent; people must work. It's no trouble; we (I am an industry worker) need something to do anyway or we get bored (we=people like me/you/all). I was unemployed for 5 years in the 90's and I can tell you; you don't want to live like that. It's boring not to have anything to do and depression sets in. Others need a job for social network.
organizations. Politics; someone must decide where to build houses, where to build factories or whatever, giving permission to start companies and so on. Police; all crime does not end with the end of money. Even murder will still happen (hate, jealousy, accidents) and other trouble (rape, fire and so on). Hobbies; people need something to do when they are not working.
people. Secrets won't run a society; only by telling people about this money-free idea will they become aware of it and act on it if neccesary.
involvement. I can not make money-free society happen. I am after all only one. All will have to do their part or one can forget about it (all; most people). People values things that require much work by themselves more than what is handed over without any effort.


The next step.

So now some work for money-free society so what now? How can the money-free countries be organized?

I prefer decentralizing of power. Most people would find politics more interesting to engage in if their local politicians and parties make the decisions for their area. Now it is often the capital politicans who make the decisions.
I have two suggestions how we could organize politics;

1. People vote for politicans in their local city or rural area. Then those politicans choose whom of them will represent their town or rural area in the county. That is right, only one of them should be neccesary to represent the population there.
.b Then the politicans in the county choose wich one of them will represent their population in the state/country.
.c Further I'd like those politicans for the state/country to choose one of them to represent their population in that part of the world. This means that the existing unions becomes obsolete/unneccesary. So there would be one person talking for England, one for Espain, one for Island and so on.
.d And lastly that group of politicans choose one of them to represent their part of the world, so in the world-government there would be one from africa, one from asia, one from europe, one from north ammerica, one from south america. When we begin to settle and make towns in space and on the moon and Mars they will also have a seat in the world(s) government (one from Mars, one from the moon and so on). And when the population on colonized planets grow into many towns I guess it will be neccesary to have a world government for each planet and possibly make a star government with one politican from each populated planet. And if we meet other people ('aliens') from other starsystems I imagine they'll make a Milkyway government with politicans from each starsystem...

2. as above, but it is the population in each country that vote for whom will represent them in the county and country. but 1c and 1d above will still have to be done that way.

My reasoning to choose only one to talk for his county/country/worldpart is that he represent the interests of his/her people and area. One people is one people and it should not matter who many they are. I see no logic in having hundreds of politicans for each area as they all usually have the same opinions anyway. And having only one increases the chance minorities of being heard, wich they are not today.
And it will be more easy for people to get to know the top politicans when their numbers is limited. People need to get to know the person talking for them in order to trust him/her. Trust is more important then numbers.
Politicans representing countries with many different cultures will of course speak for them all, not just his own. Nobody know everything so there's always room for learning


Actually I think politics should be organized this way even if we don't go for money-free society



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 02:19 PM
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Every system has flows. Communism has not failed. look at China it is growing with a new kind of communsim. Capitalizm will fall later on too just like alot of monachys and others. People will always chnage stuff. People already start to stand up against government.

Out,
Russian



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Russian
Every system has flows. Communism has not failed. look at China it is growing with a new kind of communsim. Capitalizm will fall later on too just like alot of monachys and others. People will always chnage stuff. People already start to stand up against government.

Out,
Russian


Well, to call modern China "communist" isnt really accurate. In a truly communist state, such as N.Korea, all business and industry is owned and run by the state. In a communist state, free enterprise is not allowed. In China however, it is(to a point). China should be looked at as a state that is very socialist, but is moving toward a free market economy.
Also, by definition(www.thefreedictionary.com...), capitalism and true communism cant co-exist.



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 03:36 PM
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a communist country never existed.NK is a dictatorship.

in a real communism country there is no state and no money.



posted on Nov, 7 2004 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by Coolbreeze
Reading it again now and got me thinking. I'm getting a feeling as communism has fallen in alot of countrys like russia. Do you think capitalism will fall in the westen world like in the U.s and europe next? I'm getting a feeling this could happen. How would this effect the world and what will replace it?

what do you reckon?

cheers cb.

Actually communism will be the socio-economic system to replace capitalism. You may say BHWAAA?? But this is basically the way things are expected to go. For on communism has never existed, when you say that Communism fell that was actually a different form of capitalism suitably named, State Capitalism. The whole "Cold War" thing was actually a competition between the two major forms of capitalism state and bourgeois. As we can easily se the bourgeois form won out.


Originally posted by UK Wizard
Communism fell because it was ideology flawed and couldn't compete against capitalism.

State capitalism fell because it was simply more flawed than the bourgesis form. Communism has yet to exist.


Originally posted by apw100
For better or worse, capitalism is based on human greed, which is something that will always be around.

Yes greed will always exist; the capitalistic system however transfers that greed into an self destructive competition. Greed can be put to much more productive uses.


Originally posted by apw100
In one form or another, capitalism has been present since civilization began, and will be with us until it ends.

Riiight, then please explain tribal communism, slave societies, and feudalism then.



posted on Nov, 7 2004 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by socrepLT

Originally posted by apw100
In one form or another, capitalism has been present since civilization began, and will be with us until it ends.

Riiight, then please explain tribal communism, slave societies, and feudalism then.


I think what apw100 is trying to say is... that even in the first civilizations, there were markets of a sort... places where people would trade one commodity (usually something that they grew or crafted) for another, hopefully for a profit (although their definition of profit was probably different from ours).



posted on Nov, 7 2004 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by DarkSide
a communist country never existed.NK is a dictatorship.

in a real communism country there is no state and no money.


I always thought the Smurfs had a communist system. Each smurf had some kind of job in the village (I think Smurfette was the recreation coordinator, if you get my drift) and there never seemed to be any cash transactions. Only the wizard, Gargamel I think, was on the lookout for gold.

And what about Star Trek? Is there any geek analysis of the federation's economy? I thought they were concerned that everyone had meaningful, appropriate work, plenty to eat, etc and self-expression. There must be something to glean out of that fantasy universe


On an even sillier note - I randomly opened a book of old English folk tales I have, to a story about a worn out old horse who's owner tossed him to the curb because he couldn't work any more. A passing fox asked what's up and the horse replied that greed and loyalty cannot live under the same roof. The story ended happily of course, but that little bit struck me as a sad truism in light of the coming 4 more years.



posted on Nov, 7 2004 @ 11:05 PM
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Capitalism if left to it's own devices must inevitably fail as the interest payable on the debt that has been created will spiral out past the value of the earth and everything on it.

Every since the late 1920's every dollar that has been created in Western Economies has required the payment of interest, this means that even if all the money in the world was repaid tommorrow we would all still be massively in debt.

The reason why it's so hard to get ahead in this day and age is that we are all chasing around working really hard to repay interest debt for money that does not, has not and will not ever exist.

The reason why capitalism will not fall is because, as we have seen, the world bank will simply cancel debt where it see's that countries simply have no capacity to pay. What this means, in effect is that, a system which is fatally flawed, can be perpetuated indefinetly by inconsistently and subjectively applying "rules" that the powers that be make up as they go along.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 12:39 AM
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The popularity of communism really began to grow in the mid-19th century when capitalism was at its height. this growth in popularity frightened the bougeosie and many welfare reforms began to take place (VERY slowly), culminating in the welfare state. now that capitalism has no ideological/socio-economic competition it is reverting to its untamed self. This can be seen both at home (for us that live in capitalist nations) and abroad, note the recent growth in imperialistic grabs for profit.

what prevents the fall of capitalism at this point is the non-existence of a competitive doctrine.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by veritas93
I think what apw100 is trying to say is... that even in the first civilizations, there were markets of a sort... places where people would trade one commodity (usually something that they grew or crafted) for another, hopefully for a profit (although their definition of profit was probably different from ours).

That is not unique to capitalism then, even under communism there will be a market and exchanges of sorts. Capitalism is (like the others) just a different way to create/exchange goods and services, it did not create the idea and is not exclusive to it and as such is not a defining aspect.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 02:24 AM
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There hasn't been a true communist country yet, so communism has yet to fall as it has yet to be implemented.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by socrepLT
That is not unique to capitalism then, even under communism there will be a market and exchanges of sorts. Capitalism is (like the others) just a different way to create/exchange goods and services, it did not create the idea and is not exclusive to it and as such is not a defining aspect.



Actually, the example that I provided perfectly fits the definition of capitalism provided by dictionary.com. As others have posted...



There hasn't been a true communist country yet...


A market suggests private ownership, at least to some degree. In a true communist system, nothing is owned by the individual... everything is owned by the "community" no matter how large or small. Things are not traded, they are redistributed.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 02:43 AM
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I've got news for you.

Capitalism already has fallen.

Subsidization has now entered almost every US market.

We have had to resort to government aid in order to compete with socialist economies.

Remember this: Whenever you confront an enemy, you yourself tend to become the epitomy of the very nature you hate of that enemy.





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