Dutch Filmmaker Theo Van Gogh Murdered

I don't want to talk bad about the Maroccans, but I can say that I've seen friendly Turkish people (played basketball with one), Afghan people (they're cool), Iranians, Lebanese, Egyptians. But most of the Maroccans I've seen were hostile. I'd talk to to them, but I'd be careful with my words.

For the Americans who are following this thread (all three of us ), I thought I would give this update.

www.washtimes.com...

It's sad that there has been little coverage here in the U.S. and even less interest. Last night at a dinner party I brought up the subject (the entire group is composed of OSU staff, yet none were even aware of the assassination, much less the political implications).

The rest of the world can now carry on...

snip from the letter in question
full text

www.zachtei.nl...

Islam is like a whithered plant, which has been rendered by the years-long pressure and extreme high temperatures, a diamond.

A whithered plant which is formed by the fancies of time into the strongest jewel on this Earth. A jewel on which the hardest hammer breaks itself.

AYAAN HIRSHI ALI YOU SHALL BREAK YOURSELF ON ISLAM !

You and your companions know very well that the current Islamic youth is a rough diamond that only needs smoothing, so that it may spread her all-invading light of Truth. Your intellectual terrorism will not stop this, on the contrary you will only hasten it.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
You don't know him personally, so you don't know how he really is. Point is, he remains popular in the whole of Europe. Does he have to be arrogant for that? He couldn't care less about the Dutch media because of the way they've been treating him from the beginning.

So how do you want him to act friendly to the Dutch press and not "arrogant" as you say it, while they kick him in the ass all the time???

And when he plays good, everybody's mouth is SHUT!!! No mention of it. Give him a break.

Bandit, the man wrote a book.
He thinks he is a legend, and that's really fine with me, but in the netherlands people really hate it when famous people get too full of themselves (even if you don't miss penalties like he did) , it has nothing to do with skincolor.

This act reminds me of how Larry Flint was shot and paralyzed by a White Supremacist (acting under the veil of some form of Christianity as all White Supremacists do) angry over Larry depicting interracial sex in his magazine. Not sure how people can think that Islam needs to be eradicated when there are many, many instances of Christians doing the same things.

And here comes the neo-nazi backlash:

edition.cnn.com...

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- A suspected bomb has blown the front door off a Muslim elementary school in a southern Dutch town and shattered windows across the street, days after a suspected Muslim radical killed a Dutch filmmaker, police said.

So an extremist kills a filmmaker to get a message across to another person (as evident from the letter he left), as a response to that, the other group of extremists (probably neo-nazis) bomb elementary school, to get the message across to islamic extremists

What we need to do is put them all together in a cage and let them sort it out, without killing innocent people in process.

*shakes head*

Originally posted by paperclip
So an extremist kills a filmmaker to get a message across to another person (as evident from the letter he left), as a response to that, the other group of extremists (probably neo-nazis) bomb elementary school, to get the message across to islamic extremists

Uhm, I don't think this were neo nazis.
I do condemn the act, but after Theo's death this was to be expected.
People are angry. Angry with muslims and angry with the government not doing enough about the extremists.

I get very tired of people trying be all "politically correct" when obviously the Islamic religion is the only religion bringing us this amount of extremists and death.

While muslims are saying they condemn the killing, they also say (when cameras are not recording) that Theo van Gogh got what he deserved.
And this is not an incidident, neither out of the mouth of so called extremists.

In the netherlands, several Islaimic schools received warnings for teaching their children hatred and teaching things in relation to the Jihad.
And these are just the schools the government knows about. Seeing how the governments secret service sucks at this moment, there may very well be many more schools, churches and institutions where this is the case.

Seriously, we (the netherlands) as a country have always been tolerant towards other cultures and religions, we allowed them to build the largest moskee in Europe in our country, funded by the goverment (all taxpayers pay for that) , and tried to motivate them to be part of out culture and learn our language, but it seems to me we have been too tolerant towards a culture and a religion that is not tolerant at all.

"don't make the good muslims suffer from bad muslims actions"

How about don't make people get killed by the many extremist muslims over here?!
I mean what's more important?!

The result and consequences of many many extremists muslims can not just be a "we condemn it" from the good muslims, there has to be a real consequence to protect normal citizens against the extremist individuals of this religion, even if this means a part of the freedom of the good muslims is taken away.

So far, majority of EU citizens have managed to keep calm and open mind about these issues, but it is evident that it won't last long. This is a problem that has to be dealt with both on EU level and on national levels.
The recent elections in several german provinces where neo nazi party has won a significant number of votes, should be a warning and a reason to try to deal with the situation in civilised manner before it is too late.

I happen to live in one of these provinces although I am not German. The neo-nazi�s here did not win so much because of the imigrant topics. Of course it always is on their agenda. Main thing why they won votes is because the current Government kinda screws things up. Reforming the current social system will hit these provinces hard while they have it allready very difficult. I am speaking of Eastern Germany. There is a very high number of employment here etc. etc. but.... there is not much to do here about Turkish people ie. living here, about Polish people living here and so. (Do not feel offended if you happen to be Turkish or Polish, I only named 2 groups of immigrants who are here in number) And of course where people are living under rather difficult circumstances and so, the facists are there to blame the current Government and to blame everything else so they gain votes. Also the fact that young people here do not seem to go a bit serious to school makes them vulnerable for these ideas.
But what I wonder really about is how OLD Germans here feel. How do they feel about the situation? Do they support facism or not? Being a foreigner here I keep a close look on the situation so I will be prepared to the necessary.

IMO you can not compare the situation here with ie. Holland, Belgium, Sweden..

@ Jakko.

Sorry but your Government indeed needs to do something about the violence. Since you seem to live in Holland you will probably beware of "zinloos geweld!" translation is: " useless violence". These acts were Dutch killing Dutch however I do not see you speaking about that. Now a man with rather racistic vieuws get killed, which is indeed a shame and not fair, and the rest is forgotten and the whole country comes on the street?
Problem seems to be not only between the different Religions and Nationalities in Holland Jakko. Your Government has to protect her citizens not from extremists but from violence in general!

Jakko, I see where you are coming from, but I think you are exagarating a bit.
This was just one man, murdered by another man. It wasn't some kind of islamic revolution with 1000s of dead people.
The extremist viewpoints are present in society , but active violent implementation is very rare. The freedoms of muslims have already been limited, and most of us don't mind that. You should see the procedure I have to go through every year here in Austria to renew my visa. I really don't mind that as long as its purpose is to increase security here.

While muslims are saying they condemn the killing, they also say (when cameras are not recording) that Theo van Gogh got what he deserved.

How do you know this? Have you talked with every muslim in your country?

The result and consequences of many many extremists muslims can not just be a "we condemn it" from the good muslims

What do you want them to do? Go on a killing spree? They are limited by laws of a democratic society and by their own moral obligations too.
Besides, do you go out and protest, try to chage laws, every time a drunken driver kills someone? Or a pedophile priest gets a slap on the wirst and nothing more for his actions? How many times have you protested against christian neo-nazis who have, on several occasions, beaten immigrants to death?

Countries have laws and police to take care of such people and these elements of goverment are, in some cases, equaly weak towards all forms of extremism. That is something that has to be dealt with.
Another problem is that in democratic society with freedoms, goverment is not responsible for actions of individuals. You can't stop all killings, all evil. It would take an extreme form of totalitarian society to do this. You can't blame whole group of people and discriminate them just because a few of them are nuts.

And it is not many many extremist muslims, if it were that many you would be dead right now.

Theo Van Gogh was a victim of Muslim Extremist Terrorism.

Van Gogh describes "Submission" as a pamphlet against violence against women in Islamic societies. In it, four women - their scarred bodies visible through a transparent gown and with Koranic verses daubed on them – tell their gruesome stories. The film sparked widespread commotion among Holland's large Muslim community and led to a series of death threats. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was given round-the-clock protection from the Dutch security services. Van Gogh rejected police protection.

The Co Producer of the fim in question is an Arab women herself.
www.rnw.nl...

I hope this woman is saved.

Originally posted by Calibre
I happen to live in one of these provinces although I am not German. The neo-nazi�s here did not win so much because of the imigrant topics. Of course it always is on their agenda. Main thing why they won votes is because the current Government kinda screws things up. Reforming the current social system will hit these provinces hard while they have it allready very difficult. I am speaking of Eastern Germany. *snip*

Yes, I am aware of that. I was focusing on immigration issue because of the topic of this thread.

You are right, it is the anger towards goverment too.
When the conservative party here in Austria, Joerg Heider's FPO, won the elections in 2000, a lot of people saw it as a victory of anti-immigrant policy. But a lot of austrian voters voted for him because of economy and because they were not satisfied with how social democrats were leading the country. They are pushing both agendas and they appeal to economicaly lower classes of society.

Voting for conservative parties is not always the solution though, that being very much evident here in Austria: Heider got his chance, screwed up worse then social democrats, and has now lost all support.

Originally posted by Jakko
Bandit, the man wrote a book.
He thinks he is a legend, and that's really fine with me, but in the netherlands people really hate it when famous people get too full of themselves (even if you don't miss penalties like he did) , it has nothing to do with skincolor.

During Euro 2000 four years ago I have personally read many racial insults directed at him and other Surinamese players in the Dutch national team. They wanted an all white team again. Some people even dared to say that only caucasians could play football. That' what I read with my own eyes on the forums of football websites (voetbal.nl and vi.nl) I can say that they have become a lot more tolerant since then though.

And he does have a right to say how good he is. In the rest of Europe they don't call him arrogant. And furthermore at 16 he was the youngest player ever to play in the Dutch honor division. He was the youngest player to have played 50 games for the Dutch team. They called him rookie of the century. The only player to have won three champions league trophies with three different teams. etc.. etc... But often when he touches a ball in a Dutch stadium, they booo him hard.

I haven't finished writing this post yet. I have to go to work.

Rich. Get your facts straight. You only quote one source. Van Gogh was known for his rather racistic vieuws. He knew he stirred # and was fine with it since he did not want offered police protection. Of course this does not mean someone has the right to kill him, but anyway he refused.
He is not really a victim of Islam extremism. He is a victim of 1 single group of idiots. Ok, maybe we can call them extremists. But saying and thinking that this was meant as a warning, terrorist attack or whatever is seriouosly exagerated. There are people living together in the multicultural nation Holland is, and they are living together WITHOUT violence, so it is possible! I tend to believe that also Muslims are intelligent. So by ordering his killing or making this a warning, they make life difficult for themselves. Why do that ? In Europe # did not hit the fan yet so I doubt that is what they want.

Voting for conservative parties is not always the solution though, that being very much evident here in Austria: Heider got his chance, screwed up worse then social democrats, and has now lost all support.

Hehe. You know, I am Flemish. And yes I have my National pride, i feel more Flemish than Belgian. In Flanders there is also a extreme right party, they are gaining power every time. I hate it although I am in some things Nationalistic. But I hate racism and facism, it is not the same as being a bit nationalistic. Anyway. What the Government in Belgium currently does is making like a block around this party, every other party agreed not to have talks with them about ruling together. Problem: they are getting bigger and bigger. Now like happened in Austria, I would like to see them get the power. I think it will be funny to watch and see them go down. They do not have a real program. Immigrants out, women in the kitchen and so on. That will be f****d up within a year with as result : big party does not excist anymore and people will know better. Although that last thing could be an illusion since some people did not learn after their 3rd reich dream either..

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Calibre]

Originally posted by Calibre
Van Gogh was known for his rather racistic vieuws.

If you don't know anything about this, just don't post okay?
He was not known for his racistic views at all, he was known for his provoking columns, directed towards whoever deserved it in his opinion.
There was no specific race or group of people that he was targetting at, he just tried to made people think with the cynical and often harsh things he wrote.

He is not really a victim of Islam extremism. He is a victim of 1 single group of idiots. Ok, maybe we can call them extremists. But saying and thinking that this was meant as a warning, terrorist attack or whatever is seriouosly exagerated.

You're truly talking about things you know nothing about.
This was done by islamic extremists, it's not one single group of idiots, and this is a warning to a.o. Hirschi Ali, who has been put in a "safe house" because of this.
Just today they found that the group who knew about this attack, is probbaly tied with the extremists in spain as well.

There are people living together in the multicultural nation Holland is, and they are living together WITHOUT violence, so it is possible!

Pim Fortuyn was the first to be killed for his opinions and rants, Theo is the second. Yet you are saying we in Holland are living together without violence?

I tend to believe that also Muslims are intelligent. So by ordering his killing or making this a warning, they make life difficult for themselves. Why do that ?

I am afraid you can't apply your own little logic on extremist muslims.
You should probably read up on why some muslims want to to blow themselves up for their God, maybe that will turn on the light for you.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Jakko]

Fine here's another source.

www.washtimes.com...

Theo Van Gogh was MURDERED by FANATICAL MUSLIM JIHADISTS.

Because he spoke out about the ABUSE of Muslim Women.

PERIOD.

Your link is from a page which has ads on it like "Celebrate Bush�s victory" lmao. No comment anymore.

Jakko,
It is not because I happen to not agree that I don�t know the situation my friend. Because I do. I am Flemish so can read Dutch. I happen to have read some colums by him and by Pim. Don�t deny so much what was obvious. Of course it is nicer to go flame Islam and blah blah when you do not tell about the things your guy said and wrote...

Fact is he said things against Islam who were in some�s eyes racistic. Do not deny it. They stand on his own website duh.

Ties, they all have ties, we all have ties. Maybe they where shadowing a few people allready long time, acted too late and now decide to throw it at the same corner? Killed for their vieuws. Well sorry. In some countries some of their vieuws are not allowed to be spoken in public, maybe should have been in their case the same.
So you say that Muslims are un intelligent are you? So every Muslim wants to blow him self up just like that. Get real. I am open minded, you claim to be but what comes out says other things.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Calibre]

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Calibre]

Originally posted by Calibre
Well sorry. In some countries some of their vieuws are not allowed to be spoken in public, maybe should have been in their case the same.

Uhm, hey listen if they are fine living in this retarded culture where the female is killed for cheating but the male isn't, okay. (actually it's not okay, but not much I can do about it)

But stay the **** away from our country and our culture.
We don't kill people for honour, we don't kill people when we feel insulted and we certainly do not kill people because someone insults our religion.

So you say that Muslims are un intelligent are you? So every Muslim wants to blow him self up just like that. Get real. I am open minded, you claim to be but what comes out says other things.

Ah, so you're ignorant?

1. I didn't say anyone is unintelligent
2. I didn't say every muslims blows himself up.