Why Is Socialism Doing So Darn Well in Deep-Red North Dakota?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
...
It's not the dirty word we were brought up to think it was.

Really?... Tell that to the over 130-140 + MILLION people who have been murdered under the auspices of SOCIALISM in the last 90 years or so...

Tell that to the MILLIONS more who have been imprisoned in gulags, concentration camps, indoctrination camps etc because they would not swallow the political lies of socialism and would not give up INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS "for the good of all"...

I'll not bother with the first part of your post at all. But this second part has to be commented on because of the ineptitude of the argument.

Your argument is that because 'Socialism' has murdered millions of people.... yadda, yadda, yadda.

This is a common 'argument' from the right wing sound bite machine - that it completely irrelevant to this, or any other discussion, about socialism, it's definition, it's ideals, and it's usefulness.

It is the last defence of someone without anything to say, that can't argue against a topic any longer and just doesn't have the good sense to quit or reevaluate their position.

Capitlalism has murdered many more people then 'socialism' ever did. There are you convinced that capitalizism is wrong and should be abolished from the English language? I bet that I can come up with better numbers in support of my statement then you can for yours.

Please - if you have a reasoned argument and supporting documentation share it with us. There is no shame in just sitting back and listening to wiser heads argue a subject.

I've learned lots of new things in the course of this thread (there are a couple of members that I have missed hearing from here, but...). It's something I feel in my gut. The need to fight ignorance - not deny it; but fight it; but only when I can do it from a position of certainly that I'm speaking truth not hearsay or what I wish was true.

Please don't use this idiotic "Socialism murdered more...." card again in any discussion. It cannot be supported nor verified and is just what you want to believe is true. The facts, who can say.....

reply to post by FyreByrd


Only a socialist/communist would claim that the over 130 - 140+ millions deaths under socialist systems, and the millions imprisoned because they would not swallow the lies of socialism is "irrelevant"...

It goes to show the sort of mentality that socialists/communists really have.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Strangely that the percentage ...

To a good % of the world population, it's synonymous with utter failure and collapse of empires, let alone mere nations.

comes only from the US, from Germany that is mostly Social Democrat nevertheless, probably Japan and other some Asian nations that have a very low degree social policies and planing. Most of Europe is Socialist or Social Democrat. I would classify even Canada as a Social Democrat (probably not this latest government that seems to be more to the right for what I've been reading here).

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

You can't have both socialism and capitalism, or a free society together.

Again, under socialism individual rights and freedoms are given away "for the good of all".

This is just wrong and it is a shame that you are unwilling to look at your own predudices honestly enough to listen to those who might just be right.

Most Western nations are a combination of capitalism and socialism. Some are more sucessful then others, some lean one way or the other more sharply; but they all have aspects of both.

The countries that lean more towards socialism tend to be more stable and productive. In fact, the USA as part of the rebuilding of Europe (and Japan) after the war instituted many socialist policies in those countries specifically to ensure their continuing stablility. (Though I imagine conservative will just call that meddling by the democrates). Capitalism after WII would have caused wide spread death and destruction thoughout the countries that were ravished by that war. Those countries that have pursued it - a combined capitalism/socialist, let's call it Democratic Socialism for ease of discussion have done pretty well. The Northern European countries, and Scandinavia stand out in all measures of social justice and economic equality and opportunity.

Please do some research.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

Only a socialist/communist would claim that the over 130 - 140+ millions deaths under socialist system is "irrelevant"...

It goes to show the sort of mentality that socialists really have.

Are you going to even acknowledge the Billions that have been murdered in the name of capitalism and profit?

The murder count on either side is irrelevant to the validity of any sane argument and you, Sir, are just screaming without listening and/or hearing because you have nothing RELEVANT to add.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Electric Universe. Name for us a modern day developed country that has a free market system, with no socialist programs, Thanks.

reply to post by Panic2k11


Canada is social democrat?

I'm off this discussion. enough.... If people can't even open a world map to take a look at nations by Internationally recognized definitions of their specific systems of government and economics? We're talking circles and chasing tails.

If the terms can just mean whatever everyone wants it to mean, in whatever example they want it to mean that? We're more than chasing tails. We're chasing pure ghosts for logic and it's an endless argument. Not a debate.

Maybe next thread on this will have a touch more logic starting from a flat honest position of what the systems actually ARE to start with. Right now? There are as many definitions of what each ARE as there are people on this thread debating it ..and in one case I won't name to avoid a fight ...the definitions being implied contradicted each other between two different posts on this same thread! (throws hands up)

I should have left the topic alone....It's like abortion. 80% of the people are 110% FANATIC to one side or the other and DOWN with the other side, at any cost or measures required. (sigh) Down that path lay not just national destruction but personal ruin as well. Not worth it.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Trolloks

Here is how I see the 3 main political ideologies;

1: Capitalism - Benifit for the individual
2: Socialism - Benifit for the society
3: Communism - Benifit for the state

Socialism and Communism tend to get mixed up together oftern, but that is mainly due to the USSR and the cold war when the word Socialism was thrown around all too often, that people started to think that socialism can only exist/move onto communism.
...

I find it ironic how to this day, and after every try at the total implementation of socialism which has failed still there are people who claim "socialism benefits society, and everyone in it"...

That is just a claim, and is nowhere close to the truth.

"For the good of all" and in the name of "redistribution" every INDIVIDUAL RIGHT/FREEDOM is lost under socialism which is why socialist systems become communist and become dictatorial systems...

No matter how many times you people keep claiming it, "socialism" doesn't help anyone... It takes every individual freedom people can have, INCLUDING the right to private property...

You can't have millions of people be part of the government, and "own everything" when one of the main premises of socialism is that there is NO PRIVATE/INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY...

The STATE ALWAYS gets control of everything because despite the LIES that "everyone will be in charge of the government" in fact you can't have millions of people be in charge...

Heck, every leftwinger group, and program has LEADERS, including UNIONS, yet to this day leftwingers continue trying to lie claiming "the people will be in charge"...

When the state OWNS and CONTROLS every form of infrastructure, and there are no check and balances , as there are none under socialism because the state has every form of power, the people can't own and control ANYTHING...

edit on 31-3-2013 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

Look at Nordic Nations, who have they have a lot of socialistic features: free higher education, free universal healthcare and extreme social benefits for the poor and unemployeed. They are among the happiest, best-educated and innovative nations in the world with low crime-rates, despite paying very high taxes. Their wealth cap is lower than in other wealthy countries. They are not in extreme debt and overally in very strong financial position and stability. The local economies are more competitive than the US one....

Read my thread about them: www.abovetopsecret.com... -
I believe the Nordic economy model should be the role model for the rest of world.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mbkennel

 

I'm a little fuzzy on how people see a Credit Union as a socialist idea?! It's a bank but rather than ownership by ultra wealthy bankers, it's literally owned by the account holders.

Well, there you go.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

(sigh) This is the brick wall our national discussion hits. It's not all or nothing. Communism and Capitalism ARE Mutually exclusive.....until they aren't. Ask the Chinese about that one. They're as communist today as the day Mao set forth with his little Red Book and decided a cultural revolution was needed (and 10's of millions killed in the process of getting it, of course). Yet, they are free market today in ways Mao is probably spinning in his grave over.

The Chinese are not Marxist, but they are aggressively Leninist: there is no deep political freedom, and everything is designed to privilege the "Communist" Party to get rich. Individual rights are at the whim of the Party (not even the state itself). The dictatorship of the proletariat is a farce, but the dictatorship remains.

Originally posted by Cabin


Look at Nordic Nations, who have they have a lot of socialistic features: free higher education, free universal healthcare and extreme social benefits for the poor and unemployeed. They are among the happiest, best-educated and innovative nations in the world with low crime-rates, despite paying very high taxes.

If you took US taxes, and then added in the typical cost for
a) health care
b) education

which is paid for by the Nordics' tax rates, whose taxes are actually higher?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Agree it is hard to extrapolate ideologies but based on general policies I would classify it very close to social democracy, not that every Presidential system and Monarchic Republics will be more right inclined and that I clearly indicated that Stephen Harper was even more right aligned than it is normal for Canada.

In a simplified spectrum an equivalence in relation to policies and social views would be to declare the Democrats as Social Democrats (center) and Republicans as what is generally referred as People's Party (right) in Europe the left is declared as starting to the left of the Social Democrats (that includes Socialist Greens etc and end at the Communist Part) to the right of the Social Democrats there will be the Monarchic parties (if not a Monarchy), the People's Party and in some some Right radical party as the extreme. How you define the center may be also affected by how radicalized the parties become, some would even put the Social Democrats at the right, it is extremely complex to agree with a single profile.

In any case I stated that I do not fallow Canadian policy, since you made me look into it the List of federal political parties in Canada would make the Stephen Harper what we in Europe call the People's Party.


One has also to consider power of the Federal ideology in its effect across the member states, something that in Europe is not directly comparable nor is it even between Canada and the US. The US has made large efforts to create an hegemony, in Canada states are not as obvious distinct (except Quebec) but are more free to be culturally divergent. At least that is my vision of Canada as an European...

Originally posted by FyreByrd


Are you going to even acknowledge the Billions that have been murdered in the name of capitalism and profit?

The murder count on either side is irrelevant to the validity of any sane argument and you, Sir, are just screaming without listening and/or hearing because you have nothing RELEVANT to add.

They have not... Under socialist systems more people have been murdered and imprisoned than all war wars, and other minor wars put together in the last 90 -100 years...

The fact that millions of people have been murdered, and imprisoned under socialism DOES MATTER... It shows it is only but a lie that "it is for the good of all"...

If I have prejudice is because I lived what you have not under socialism and communism...

Ah...so conservatives, even anti-abortionists have a better sense of economic nous than the rest?

So it seems. Not only do they preserve life, they ensure there is income with which to nurture it.

Makes the rest of the US look barbaric by comparison.

and if you want to say a growing fertilized egg has no rights then lets go around the hospitals and save money by pulling the power to ventilators of those considered brain dead...after all they aren't living a truly human life are they? (cynicism intended)

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

You can't have both socialism and capitalism, or a free society together.

Again, under socialism individual rights and freedoms are given away "for the good of all".

Under socialism and communism people CANNOT own ANY private property because everything has to be "redistributed equally".

Under socialism, and despite the claims of the contrary, the STATE ALWAYS controls and owns everything, and there are no checks and balances needed to have a FREE SOCIETY...

Socialism/communism are completely contradictory to a free society, and seek to banish individual rights and freedoms "for the good of all".

What is this? So many countries in the world have both capitalist and socialist systems and cultures mixed together, how can you say it isn't possible?

I live in France, which has a lot of socialism aspects, but it also has a capitalist economy. It works, from what I can tell. THere are some things the state runs and operates, and every town has their co-ops, and we have mutuals (non profit) instead of insurance companies , universal healthcare, social programs.

And yet we still have private ownership as well. There is the "private sector" and the "public sector" and they coexist just fine.

My husband works for a big pharmaceutical lab, but it is not on the stock exchange; it is the employees that own all stock in it- it is also privately owned by the man who started it. He still makes more than they, it is not "distributed equally".

Even Marxist theory of socialism is based on the principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution". - That is not equal re-distribution, as you said!

Are you getting socialism mixed up with communism, perhaps??

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by mbkennel

 

I'm a little fuzzy on how people see a Credit Union as a socialist idea?! It's a bank but rather than ownership by ultra wealthy bankers, it's literally owned by the account holders.

Well, there you go.

It is not literally owned by the account holders. The profits are poured into the state's coffers, not in dividends to the account holders. The state owns the bank. It means that if the bank is in the black, that residents have a good chance of getting a favorable interest rate on a loan, and their property taxes might not go up that year.
Hardly socialist; more like good old fashioned savvy capitalism, and a big bird flipped in the direction of the big banksters. There are small towns around this country where the cities run for-profit businesses and it pays off in lower property-taxes, or better roads, or new computers for the schools, not cash for the citizens (except those who are employed by the city).

reply to post by FyreByrd

that this nation was founded with many socialist ideals

No, you are flat out WRONG! This country was founded on the principles of free enterprise and individuality...exactly the opposite of socialism.

Originally posted by FyreByrd

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I'm missing where this has any relation at all to the Socialist ideology? It sounds like a giant Credit Union at the state level, to me. Very much like a modern version of the Central State Banks which existed at the founding of our nation and ..to various degrees, right into the Civil War. It's nice to see one state has held the independence this way as it really should have been all along.

Yes!!! - you see the whole point - that this nation was founded with many socialist ideals - they were not called that at the time but that is what they were in fact.

Mutual Aid societies (as the libertarians like to call them) but without exclusions.

Government run public utilites - by the people and for the people - are socialist/collectivist. It is in fact Democratic Socialism in action.

edit on 30-3-2013 by FyreByrd because: (no reason given)

Just what about this banks charter makes it socialist in any way?

Originally posted by Bluesma
What is this? So many countries in the world have both capitalist and socialist systems and cultures mixed together, how can you say it isn't possible?

I live in France, which has a lot of socialism aspects, but it also has a capitalist economy. It works, from what I can tell. THere are some things the state runs and operates, and every town has their co-ops, and we have mutuals (non profit) instead of insurance companies , universal healthcare, social programs.

And yet we still have private ownership as well. There is the "private sector" and the "public sector" and they coexist just fine.

My husband works for a big pharmaceutical lab, but it is not on the stock exchange; it is the employees that own all stock in it- it is also privately owned by the man who started it. He still makes more than they, it is not "distributed equally".

Even Marxist theory of socialism is based on the principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution". - That is not equal re-distribution, as you said!

Are you getting socialism mixed up with communism, perhaps??

France is turning more and more socialist, but it is not a complete socialist system yet. It is getting close, and you will get your wish and see first hand what happens.

When private property is abolished, which will be, and when your government, or the EU/one world government gets control of every infrastructure then will France be a full socialist system.

What people like you don't understand is that it takes decades to brainwash people, as you are, to transform you from being capitalists into being socialist.

Worry not, you will get your wish soon enough. The UN and leftwingers in power around the world already have plans for global governance "derived from corporate mandates"...

“The governments of Europe, the United States, and Japan are unlikely to negotiate a social-democratic pattern of globalization – unless their hands are forced by a popular movement or a catastrophe, such as another Great Depression or ecological disaster“

These governments would not accept a "social-democratic pattern of globalization" unless their hands are FORCED by a popular movement (Occupy and Anthropogenic Global Warming movements), another Great Depression (the current GLOBAL economic crisis), or an ecological disaster (Global Warming being blamed on humans)

Democratising Global Governance:

The Challenges of the World Social Forum

by

Francesca Beausang


ABSTRACT

This paper sums up the debate that took place during the two round tables organized by UNESCO within the first World Social Forum in Porto Alegre (25/30 January 2001). It starts with a discussion of national processes, by examining democracy and then governance at the national level. It first states a case for a "joint" governance based on a combination of stakeholder theory, which is derived from corporate governance, and of UNESCO's priorities in the field of governance. As an example, the paper investigates how governance can deviate from democracy in the East Asian model. Subsequently, the global dimension of the debate on democracy and governance is examined, first by identification of the characteristics and agents of democracy in the global setting, and then by allusion to the difficulties of transposing governance to the global level.

www.unesco.org...

The above paper is from 1991 from the UN (UNESCO is a branch of the UN in case you didn't know). It, and the meetings these globalists have been having call for a GLOBAL SOCIALIST/FASCIST GOVERNMENT derived from CORPORATE GOVERNANCE...

That is a socialist/fascist one World Government, and people like you will get your wish soon enough and see the truth...

Millions of people like me were born and experienced the truth of socialism and communism, and people like you have ignored our warnings because you have been brainwashed into thinking "socialism is great and we need it"...

Instead of listening to the voice of reason and experience most people who accept socialism/communism have decided to deride those of us who know the truth from experience, we are even labeled "CIA agents", paid spooks etc, and are given other labels because you don't want to listen to the truth.

As an example, a Cuban friend of mine who is a blogger and has been trying to show the truth about Cuba arrived in Washington about two weeks ago and was received by leftwingers with ads claiming she is lying, and protesting for her right to tell the truth about Cuba and the socialist/communist system so many WESTERNERS believe "is heaven when in fact is hell"... Similarly other leftwingers/socialists/communists around the world have made protests against her visit to the U.S. because of their ignorance.

But like I said, worry not, you will get your wish soon, and suffer for it.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Electric Universe. Name for us a modern day developed country that has a free market system, with no socialist programs, Thanks.

Completely capitalist? none. Socialist ideals have made sure of that with the creation of the Federal Reserve, which is a central bank, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and every global organization/group which is controlling the world and have allowed monopolies to have control over almost everything.

As for socialist programs... I have seen socialists/communists in these forums claim that being compassionate is only a trait of leftwingers/socialists/communists... I have seen leftwingers claim that being part of a society itself makes it socialist... You people would probably even claim the air is socialist because we all breathe it...