Planned Parenthood endorses post-birth abortion

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Dear Southern Guardian,

My apologies for taking so long to get back to you and for not giving you the information you wanted instead of the information I wanted to give. I do have to admit though that I am very mildly irritated by your presumption. Oh well, no matter, let's see if we can clear things up a little.

Ah yes, the age old argument of "rape doesn't happen that often so we should just ignore it in the abortion debate".

I didn't make that argument, apparently you thought I did. My argument was that pregnancy following rape was vanishingly rare, far less than 1%, and that the case of rape shouldn't control the entire discussion. It's not the tail wagging the dog, it's a flea on the tail wagging the dog.

. . . you are truly twisted in the head if you think it's justified to force a woman to go through with pregnancy after she had been raped . . .

A very strange position indeed. If you believe there is no human life in the mother, then there is no reason(except for the possibilities of psychological and physical harm) for her to avoid an abortion.

But what if you believe that there is a human life in the mother as a result of rape? Surely, if anyone in the world is innocent of anything, it is the child in the womb. Your grounds for killing that child then? Assuming there is no serious risk to the life of the mother, in which case self-defense is an option, do you off the kid because she might be a nuisance? An expense? A hindrance in some way?

It's also disgusting that people will think to demonize the women in these situations who end up choosing abortions, calling them irresponsible.

I agree to the extent that demonizing any person is a mistake, and for me, a sin. May people disagree with her decision? Of course, people disagree with other people's decisions all the time.

Do you want to force and imprison raped and molested woman, children, for choosing abortion?

Do I, personally? I don't know. That possibility seems unlikely enough that I haven't explored it thoroughly. "What do our lawmakers want?" may be a better question.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by binkbonk
reply to post by Surfrat

 

There are some adults that survived abortion attempts, should we kill them too?

It's possible we have....Capital Punishment ya know....

Man want woman. Woman want man. Nobody want baby. So man and woman fight and man make laws to force woman to have baby. Why don't man make law requiring man to wear rubbers? Oh, that's right, "they don't feel good". Neither does killing babies.

reply to post by charles1952

I didn't make that argument

No, you claim didn't make such an argument apparently. You just responded to my post about women seeking abortion in cases of rape and incest by quoting me statistics about how rare women fall pregnant from rape, as if this issue is irrelevant, this was your intention. This irrelevance obviously implies that it's not an issue, so we should treat it as though it doesn't exist and not debate it. Now you'll continue to hide your position through other excuses because really, you don't have much of an argument against abortion in these cases and you don't want to be caught out having to make more silly excuses.

But what if you believe that there is a human life in the mother as a result of rape? Surely, if anyone in the world is innocent of anything, it is the child in the womb. Your grounds for killing that child then?

I don't think fertilized eggs are human beings, I made my position rather clear here. So on what grounds am I arguing that a child your be killed? On no grounds, but then again we're not really discussing children here. I do believe women should have the last say on what they do with their bodies, it's really none of your business, and that's that.

Do I, personally? I don't know.

It's not that you "don't know", it's that you refuse to state your position. It's fairly apparent from your posts that you oppose abortion in the all cases including rape an incest, hence your statistical references and your arguments regarding the "grounds for killing children". I don't really expect you to have an honest debate at all Charles, you'll continue to be deceptive about what you really meant and implied, so I'll end it here.

reply to post by James1982

Originally posted by James1982
If they try to abort the baby, and it survives,

Nobody here supports abortion of born babies, even those who survive botched abortions. This was never a debate, and the "family planning" representative never endorsed it if you actually watched the video.

As for "women murdering 1 year olds", no I don't support this, but then again we're not discussing murder, we're discussing abortions.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Dear Southern Guardian,

I'm sorry that there is misunderstanding between us, and that you choose to end the discussion. I'm not vain enough to assume anyone else is reading this, but if they happen to be I'd like to try to simplify and clarify.

The instance of rape is what I am specifically talking about. If a person believes that all abortion decisions are solely the mother's choice, then I have nothing further to say. He has taken his position and I'm not trying to argue against him. That's another discussion for another time.

If, however, someone believes their should be some restriction on abortion, (presumably because we are dealing with a life to be protected) the question arises "Should abortion be restricted in case of rape?" With that person a discussion can be held.

I asked what makes rape justification for ending the child's life, if it is a given that the life is indeed a child? Sure, people feel strongly that rape should be an exception, but logically, why? I haven't seen the logic for it presented.

My position? I believe there should be some restrictions on abortion, but I don't see how my personal opinion affects anything.

With respect,
Charles1952

I see a lot of emotionally charged rhetoric being thrown around here, without any real discussion of the facts of the situation.

First off, there's absolutely no inclination AT ALL that this would ever actually be put into practice.

Second, I haven't seen anyone mention a couple of very important questions. Questions that must be asked before anyone can make an informed decision on this topic. How many abortions end up this way? How many result in a baby being born prematurely? What is the survival rate of babies born this way? What if 1 in 1000 survive, while the rest die a slow painful death?
I can't imagine babies being born after an abortion attempt are usually in prime condition.
I don't think this is a clear cut moral issue. Wouldn't saving 999 babies from a slow agonizing death, be worth killing one baby prematurely and sparing many from pain?
Yes the numbers are made up, but couldn't a somewhat similar situation be the reality?

I don't know why I'm bothering. This is ATS, where it doesn't matter what the facts are, as long as they fit your viewpoint!

I asked a few questions but no one seemed to want to answer them even if they were I don’t really know how I feel about the issue. Sad mostly no matter how you look at it. But I digress.

I have noticed the conundrum many of the prolife seem to face in the event of a pregnancy due to rape. It seems rather hypocritical the stance most of them take.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be a judge deciding such an issue either this or the one dealing with unwanted pregnancy due to rape. That seems to be the instance where murder becomes acceptable for many. FYI it is their standard of murder I am using.

Judges who have ruled on these matters had to do so considering the science, existing laws and do so without letting emotion cloud their judgment it would certainly be a daunting task.

I am not of the opinion that a human begins at conception for me that comes later after it has developed of course I know some believe otherwise. As for the OP it seems that this hasn’t been an issue to date and there are already in effect in case something like this happens. It makes me think the OP is actually just an attack against Planned Parenthood or those that work there because let’s face it if you can demonize them to the public on an issue whether that issue is even relevant or not furthers some agendas. So basically I see this as an agenda driven attack where the facts have been stretched and blurred for goal oriented reasons.

I do appreciate those who provided the information on the current law and brought up that there haven’t been any recent cases that would make this topic relevant. Also thank you Kali for providing the picture of a blastocyst. I did find out that they will do abortions in Florida up to 24 weeks. After doing a little research it is my opinion that any baby that survives an abortion done prior to that 24 weeks period is going to have a very harsh life at 21 weeks the intestines are just finishing being developed and even at 24 weeks the baby hasn’t finished developing its inner ear. If it was up to me I would change some of the rules about the timeframe of when abortions are viable but it isn’t up to me so I am just stating that if this ever happens I feel sorry for the kid because life is going to be extra rough for him/her I can only imagine the pain that kid will experience both physically and emotionally then if he or she even makes it to the age to question why all that happened to them don’t be surprised if that kid has some deep seated mental problems. I even feel bad for who the person will be trying to answer them and let’s face it probably will not be the kids natural parent the kid will most likely will be in a foster care. I see a lose, lose situation for all. That to me is the most heartbreaking part of this scenario.


Edit to add

Ghost I appreciate you asking those questions I was asking some of the same things you are but maybe in a different way. I think you asked them much better than I did.

I think part of the problem is as you said the agenda is taking precedent over the facts here. I will check on this thread later to see if anyone answers you.

So...... she never endorsed it. As for the botched abortion if the child is outside the womb it seem like there really isn't a choice to be made. The doctor nor the mother should have a chioce in the matter. if the child isn't in the womb the doctor should have to treat the child and do everything in his power to save that child. As for the abortion part of this. I personally am against abortion. I am also pro choice. as far as I'm concerned that should be up to the person who is pregnant. Religion should never be brought in to the abortion debate. Remember let he without sin cast the first stone. None shall judge but the father. I'm sure I got the qoutes wrong but you get my point.

reply to post by seeker1963


Hold the phone.Before you make this a race issue heres some data on the percentages for different races:
Percentages of U.S. Females, Age 15-44, Broken Down by Race (According to 2000 U.S. Census)

Whites: 64.7%
Blacks: 12.3%
Hispanic or Latino: 12.4%
Other: 10.6%

As you can see,by far more whites are having abortions than blacks or any other race.Remember you have to come up with the money to get one.I'm not sure for those on welfare if they can get one paid for by medicaid or what.I looked up several different sites and they all pretty much had the same stats on this.

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by Surfrat

 

Killing children is cool right? As long as it isn't at the barrel of a gun???

The progressive agenda is sooooo hypocritical it is disgusting!

Absafreken-lootly. The more we watch these people the clear it is to see they are.... well sick. A potpourri of foul smelling deaths. Walking and talking dreams walking in broad daylight. A palethera of assembled flying monkeys, buzzards, and other flying creatures.

Originally posted by Surfrat
Here is someone who survived an abortion
www.youtube.com...

Come on...you know the holocaust never happend.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Or how about you take responsibility as an adult and make that decision when the choice really is yours alone. That decision is only valid when you decide to have sex. If someone forced sex upon you then is when it is yours after the pregnancy. But if you willingly had sex you cant say its my body my decision. It was your body and your decision before you had sex and took the chance to have a baby. What are people thinking?

reply to post by LoneGunMan

Or how about you take responsibility as an adult

We can all only hope and wish that people take responsibility for their actions. I wish that people would take responsibility for the way they drive so that less crashes can happen. I wish that people would take more responsibility for what they eat so that they don't get overweight. I wish people would take responsibility for the manners of their kids. There's a difference between wanting a person to take a "moral" and "ethical" responsibility, but it's another to force them to. You are more than welcome to yap on about how pregnant woman need to take responsibility, the fact will remain that in end they can legally choose not to take that responsibility, and you can't force them to.

You're more than welcome to go preach down the street about how people should take a moral and ethical responsibility, but you have no right to force them to go through with a pregnancy and rightfully so. It's their body in the end, not yours, and it's their right, they have last say. You don't accept this? It's nobody's problem.

Originally posted by jimmiec
Who exactly gave women the right to kill babies? They say it is their right, who gave them that right? At least a million couples a year try to adopt a baby in America, At least a million babies a year are murdered by abortion. The excuse is always "well i'm afraid i might get attached to the baby once it's born". Really? That is no excuse for murder. How many Einsteins have been aborted? They have devices now that they can put under your skin to keep you from getting pregnant. Planned Parenthood should just give those away to every teen. Problem solved. But no, we must murder babies while in the same breath say "we must take away all guns to protect the children" GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

Yano contraception has it draw backs, it can seriously effect a woman's body - But i dont expect you to understand that because you're just a man and its not really your business right?
Abortion IS a woman's issue just as male circumcision is a man's issue. Stay on your side of the fence, buck.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by beezzer

 

So they can have a choice as to commit murder

Oh of course not, I don't think women should be allowed to kill and murder people. I am terribly sorry if I confused you and made it sound as if I supported murder because I certainly I don't! I do support the woman's right and choice to have an abortion, which is not murder. So sorry for confusing you there

Gotta love that "choice"

Oh I love it alright. I love it because it just kills people like you to know that women have choices. You personally believe that the minute a women is pregnant, her rights ceases and she should then be controlled like some doll, but fortunately we've long moved on from that era. Thanks as well to technology it's getting easier for women to make those choices

Oh I'm sorry Southern, but it is just too disgusting to think that people condone this stuff when the baby can be seen alive outside the womb and still say oh it should be up to the woman blah blah blah. When will people finally see it for what it is, a justification for out of control lives and an unwillingness to face the consequences.

reply to post by Surfrat


Seeing as how Passover just recently happened.

I wonder how people rationalize the murder of all those infants and children by an angel sent by God himself?

reply to post by Grimpachi

I am not of the opinion that a human begins at conception for me that comes later after it has developed of course I know some believe otherwise

It would be most interesting to find out from you exactly what precise moment the baby becomes a real live being to you? Is it 16 weeks? 20 weeks? or is it after it is born? I'm just curious, since you seem to know the exact precise moment an unborn baby becomes alive. (I'm guessing you never felt the baby move inside your belly).
Then again, this thread is about babies which were attempted to be aborted but somehow it was botched and the baby lived, and Planned Parenthood thinks that a live baby alive outside the womb can be arbitrarily killed since the woman was trying to kill it in the first place. Since viability outside the womb was supposed to be the benchmark whereby Progressives say the baby can live, now why is Planned Parenthood suggesting that a live baby outside the womb can be arbitrarily killed?

Think about it. If you were to be completely honest you would know the answer.

My questions in earlier post have been ignored which is too bad.

I am thinking that if there was a baby that survived a botched abortion that trying to keep it alive would be the cruelest fait anyone could imagine. The developmental stage of a fetus at 24 weeks witch is the maximum amount of time one can legally wait till to have an abortion in Florida.

It seems to me life for anyone born under such circumstances would have a life of pain and misery that isn’t even considering the emotional trauma for them later in life. I believe life is precious but I also believe torture is inhumane. I do not think some people are considering the whole picture here and they should.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Does anyone know how much drug companies will pay for aborted baby parts? Especially if they're older, as in later gestation?

Aborted babies still squirming on the table. Whole kidneys worth a lot of money.

Do your own research - in fact, look into what people have testified to in Congress - on the congressional record.