Shroud Of Turin Real? New Research Dates Relic To 1st Century, Time Of Jesus Christ

reply to post by POXUSA


If you say so, pal.

Let's just say I'll believe modern scholars before some guy who just registered on ATS and has 120 posts. I think most people will agree with me.

Can we at least agree that the Jesus who was the basis of the Christian religion was crucified?

Tacitus was a Roman Senator and a non-Christian. He wrote this about 110 A.D. and was seven when Rome burned.

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

His writing Annals has been scrutinized by modern scholars. Here are some comments from the Wiki article (and the statements do have footnotes to sources).

Most modern scholars consider the passage to be authentic. Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus. Although a few scholars question the passage given that Tacitus was born 25 years after Jesus' death, the majority of scholars consider it genuine. William L. Portier has stated that the consistency in the references by Tacitus, Josephus and the letters to Emperor Trajan by Pliny the Younger reaffirm the validity of all three accounts.

Van Voorst states that "of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ". John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."

en.wikipedia.org...

Happy Easter

I find it hilarious how the Jesus depicted on the shroud is the classic "white man's" Jesus.. Sharing no features of what the real Jewish Jesus from that time would have actually looked like.

I'm not convinced that the Bible's Jesus ever even existed, as he's a mishmash of other Pagan prophets that also probably never existed, and I'm definitely convinced that the shroud is a horribly bad fake.

reply to post by adjensen

You didn't say this?

I did post that and I was not clear enough about getting a body. It could be live and then injured as needed or someone already dead. Thanks for letting me clear that up.

The alternative, of course, is someone taking a live person, scourging them with the intent of creating a fraud, without the knowledge that a live scourging is necessary to produce the shroud. Maybe you figure that there was such an evil genius in the 16th Century, you'll forgive me if I doubt it.

The origin of the shroud is before the 16th century. That is documented history.

It was created at a time when crusaders had invaded the holy lands. For all we know it was a crusader prisoner that was used.

Your abject dismissal of such questions without a valid reason, apart from terms of debate, seems to indicate that you have an steadfast opinion, and the evidence is irrelevant. That's fine, but it's hardly scientific.

An odd statement seeing that my position is based on the C-14 dating and the fact that the image has been reproduced.

reply to post by Blue Shift


I've already posted a link in which someone was able to get a better image of a face. Maybe this author you link to could learn from the Italian group?

reply to post by TheComte


Thanks. I knew this existed, but was not aware of the name of the person.

Originally posted by garbageface
I find it hilarious how the Jesus depicted on the shroud is the classic "white man's" Jesus.. Sharing no features of what the real Jewish Jesus from that time would have actually looked like.

I'm not convinced that the Bible's Jesus ever even existed, as he's a mishmash of other Pagan prophets that also probably never existed, and I'm definitely convinced that the shroud is a horribly bad fake.

Great point.

reply to post by boymonkey74


Hmm, What propegandistic nonsense, Why don't you look up the song of Solomon and in particular the reference to even though her skin was black as ebony, look up the book of Enoch, the new translation from the Ethiopean orthodox church and the description of Noah and the Nephilim as he was described as being blonde and blue eyed like the Nephilim and his father despaired believing him to not be his son but god eased his heart - read it.

There are several race's of WHITE man not ONE, the now genetically outbred Macedonian Greek's were blonde and blue eyed as well and they were not Nordic, the Kurdish people whom are oppressed and regarded as filth by most Arab's are the descendant's of the Philistine's and blue, hazel and green eye's as well as blonde, brown and auburn hair appear amongst there children,.

The Celt's of Eira (Ireland) are cousin's of the north African Berber people whom were the same people whom built the Carthaginian Empire that was destroyed in the Punic war's, they were also racially linked to the phillistine's.
Even the Egyptian's were described as Hairy Red skinned and though it was back and forth as well as intermarriage they were often at war with the Power full black Nubian kingdom's,.

This is about the TURIN SHROUD not you personal bias and belief so stop the racist rant and if you don't believe well that is your calling.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Found a write up on the BBC, It went on live Italian TV.

reply to post by LABTECH767


Can you explain where I had a racist rant please? So change your post please.
Oh and I will accept your apology in advance.

This thread seems to have gone just a little off topic, so just want to remind new people coming into it that I've linked on an earlier page other threads on the Shroud, and each of those have much information and data releated to the origiinal OP and the past history of both the shroud and the new research emerging about it. This thread is a good one as well, and I've linked it to the others.

reply to post by boymonkey74


Yes I am truly sorry, optical migraine make's me behave erratically, slurred speech flashing light's and blind spot's but no excuse - It should have been directed at garbageface whom you quoted but I was a bit harsh as his post was merely pointing out that the stereotypical image of Christ may be wrong so I was wrong to point it out anyway,.

So to you boymonkey and Aleistair My unequivocal apology and I extend that to garbageface.

Back to the thread I also remember that pollon taken from the shroud included some from the Palestine region and specifically flora that were not found else were though the flora of the Milan region was also obviously present so you can rule out DaVinci as a master forger here,.

god is a shapeshifter A being of dark matter and dark energy. The angels or the pleiades are lesser beings of the 4 elements. They are of the elements fire and wind. The dragon and the bird. Which gives them the light. Its the inner fire of the dragon that allows them to glow like that.

Lucifer is the light barer. They have genetically modified themselves to glow as well as other neat tricks. They use a translucent metal for their pods, but the ships of yahweh are ancient and so will always look the same.

God is personified as a lion, a jaguar/panther puma cougar Wolf. All of these are used to personify him. Why? Because that's who he is. Ever heard stories of the black dogs? These beings get CHOKED if you don't understand their messages and live in sin. Example. Shooting Osiris and thinking its a demon. And praying to god that it goes away? Yeah i think i will slaughter your live stock. And then you have the owls, or the greys, reptillians.... You know they have tons of hybrids right? And they are the ET that everyone is talking about that is doing experiments on people.

Have you ever heard of an abduction story where people are surrounded by black dogs? I havn't read one. But how many with tall human like people and greys in the background.... why the hell is a grey there? And people have the gull to say these beings are here to help us?.... Obviously. If something does not give you a choice, its a being of injustice. We know injustice as evil. If something gives you space and a choice. We know it has respect and is justice. Which is good. How many people get warning from black dogs? don't go down that trail... don't go in this house... Don't go down this trail...

I have read countless stories of these dogs warning people. never once did i hear of one where someone got bite, or attacked. Only ones were when people were hunting them, or shooting them. Stories of people like that... yeah we can see skin walker ranch and other stories having truth to it.



Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the
evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities:
every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their
transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased.
— Jeremiah, V.6


The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid;
and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
— Isaiah, XI.6

Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
— Hosea, XIII.7

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
— Jeremiah, XIII.23

Originally posted by POXUSA
reply to post by adjensen

 

Please amend the title..........Shroud Of Turin Real! 
New Research Dates Relic To 1st Century, Time Of Jesus Christ

The only one's who deny the 'realness' of the Shroud of Turin are the enemies of the Catholic Church.

edit on 29-3-2013 by POXUSA because: Shroud of Turin

Spoken like a Catholic that refuses to believe Jesus Christ and the gospel as given to us. They too must be  the Catholic Church's enemies.

John 6:44 Jesus said  “no one can come to me unless the Father draws him.”

No amount of Mary's in the sky, bleeding statues and shrouds will ever bring someone into saving faith. The only thing that lying signs and wonders do is convince people that a lie is true. They are the presents tagged "from santa" left under the tree on Christmas morning that convinces children that Santa Claus is true.

Doubts about the resurrection have nothing to do with lack of evidence and never have. Why? It has always been a moral and spiritual question.

men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.  “For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed (rebuked)" John 3:19-20

 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

The problem is not the evidence - it is that 1) God Himself draws, those who do evil won't step into the light to have their deeds exposed, and a carnal mind can not accept the things of the Spirit of God. 

Those who must have evidence before they can believe anything are just as vulnerable as little children at Christmas time who fully believe that a lie is true, never understanding that the evidence was manufactured. Likewise, this lying sign and wonder of the shroud will be held up for the world "to believe". Can it, according to scripture, bring saving faith? Absolutely not. For centuries the Catholic Church has held up an endless list of supposed miracles as "divine proof", despite Jesus Christ saying "Blessed are those who believe without seeing".

John 20 shows that a separate piece of cloth was wrapped about the head of Christ, yet the shroud is one piece which includes the head.  The gospels teach  that several pieces of cloth were used to wrap the body of Jesus and they were in the form of “strips,” “wrappings,” or “linen bandages”. Again the shroud is in one piece. 

So, if we do not doubt His words left to us, we know the truth - the shroud is a lying sign and wonder. 

So by your own words

The only one's who deny the 'realness' of the Shroud of Turin are the enemies of the Catholic Church.

You do nothing but identify those enemies:
The Bible
Jesus Christ
Truth

How many times are we encouraged and commanded to test everything? How many times are we encouraged to love the truth? And despite it all, we fail miserably at trusting Him to have given us the Truth and therefore we believe men instead.

The original carbon 14 dating took a piece of cloth from the 'patch' and not from the original shroud. THIS test is more accurate. It took original shroud materials.

The pollen says it was in Jerusalem.
The coins on the eyes say it was there at the correct time period.
Tests show imprints all along the sides of the shroud of flowers/plants.
(which mourners would have placed there)
The head is smaller in the shroud because it was double wrapped, and the rest of the body wasn't. This fits with gospel descriptions.
It's not painted on.
It's a negative image .. which wasn't possible until very recently in history.
The markings and beatings on the man in the shroud match that of the gospel descriptions.

I believe it's authentic.
I believe it's the burial cloth of Jesus.

Originally posted by garbageface
I find it hilarious how the Jesus depicted on the shroud is the classic "white man's" Jesus.. Sharing no features of what the real Jewish Jesus from that time would have actually looked like.

How can you see skin color from an imprint on the shroud?
He doesn't like 'white' to me. Nor asian. Nor african.
And as far as 'features' ... if you look at his hair and beard style,
Jewish people of that time period could easily have had that.

BTW .. his nose was broken so seeing if he had the 'jewish nose'
that a lot of jews had/have would be very hard. His face was busted up badly.

Scripture says that he resembled a worm .. not a man ... after his beating.
So I don't know how you can say anything about his 'features' in the shroud
looking like one race or another ...

Originally posted by stereologist
We all know that C14 dating puts it at a time when it was found, which was during the Crusades.

That was a C14 date of THE PATCH materials ... not the shroud itself.
The patch was duirng the time of the crusades. we all know that.

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
I saw a documentary a while ago where many white American Christians being interviewed refused to believe Jesus didn't speak English and wasn't white, .....

Sorry dude .. I"m just not buying that as true. Sounds totally B.S. ....

Originally posted by jonnywhite
Even if it's Jesus, so what? Jesus was a man put on a cross because he was a freak.

Um ... no. He was put on a cross because the power-hungry and glory-hungry pharisees hated the fact that the people were following Jesus teachings and that He outshined the pharisees by doing miracles. He was put on a cross because of jealousy and greed of evil men. That's the mundane reason. The theological reason that he was put on the cross ... to pay for sins or to pay for the bad karma of others. (depends on which theologan you ask)

Let me be straight with you ...

Let me be straight with you as well. Dude .. instead of blindly bashing something, at least learn the facts about it first. I think that's pretty good advice.

reply to post by FlyersFan

That was a C14 date of THE PATCH materials ... not the shroud itself.
The patch was duirng the time of the crusades. we all know that.

Not true. The C-14 dated material was not from a patch, nor was it from any of the charred cloth.
The test material was from the original although some have claimed there is a "not possible to see" backing that was added as part of the repair.

www.shroud.com...

The strip came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas.

Sorry dude ... but you're mistaken

Here is a lengthy blog on the shroud that may be enlightening,.
theshroudofturin.blogspot.co.uk...
theshroudofturin.blogspot.co.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...

Is it not interesting how Atheist BELIEVER's will use the sporadic and often unreliable test's on this object even though it has been subjected to many environmental process' that could also have injected fresh isotopic C14 into the sample's that were taken including wood smoke and pollen, the hand's of the devout believer's whom with reverence handled it many time's in the past, in my opinion this is none other than an artefact looted from Constantinople.

www.shroud.com...

Just to add to the topic as I have seen some misguided statement's by both Catholic and Anti Catholic argument's. The Turin shroud it not catholic it is Christian and god can work through sign's and miracle's. A house divided can not stand so whom wish's it.

I am not going to anyone here but please bear in mind the very earliest tradition's of the church venerated the mother of Christ, Orthodox Ethiopean, Orthodox Assyriac en.wikipedia.org... , Coptic and several other church's that were not part of the conclave of Nicenea which gave rise to the Greek orthodox, Russian orthodox, Catholic (it mean's orthodox) and I think though I am not certain Georgian Orthodox, all venerate the virgin mother of Christ as the vessel god sent to bear his son into the world and as a saint that can intercede for us in a motherly way by asking her son or praying to the father.

You easily forget that Martin Luther was a Jesuit priest and he merely and correctly wanted the gospels in the spoken language of his flock which was an act of evangelism, there is more to Christianity than a collection of soul less page's that were compiled from SELECTED work's by Constantine and his mother Helena whom are regarded also as saint's by orthodox Nicean creed Christian's.