The Workers Dream: Socialism and Communism

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit.We are no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -- Woodrow Wilson 1919

All of this discussion about Socialism and Communism is to condition the people to accept AGENDA 21 or the NWO system that America will fall under if we fail . I would rather get off my ass and go to work and get what I want . It is the people who wants it all handed to them that wants this crap ! The Obama new Internet workers are trying to promote the NWO and it's repressive system . His Whitehouse staff is about 50% Socialist /Communist . Remember Van Jones and George Soros is just as bad at pushing Socialism . Their kind of Socialism called Totalitarianism . You wouldnt expect them to tell you the truth .
At any rate you will lose all private property rights , your car your aircondition , your right to live where you want and to many the right to live .

Don't be fooled into giving up your Country and your rights .

reply to post by Phoenix267


You missed anarcho-communism to me the better form of a balanced free society. The end of state, wages and private property (while retaining respect for personal property) in true form the spirit born after the French revolution, people will aggregate to resolve their problems not to exploit each-other. The WIkipedia article is too restricted in its views I would base decisions not on direct democracy but on consensus.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
All of this discussion about Socialism and Communism is to condition the people to accept AGENDA 21 or the NWO system that America will fall under if we fail . I would rather get off my ass and go to work and get what I want . It is the people who wants it all handed to them that wants this crap ! The Obama new Internet workers are trying to promote the NWO and it's repressive system . His Whitehouse staff is about 50% Socialist /Communist . Remember Van Jones and George Soros is just as bad at pushing Socialism . Their kind of Socialism called Totalitarianism . You wouldnt expect them to tell you the truth .
At any rate you will lose all private property rights , your car your aircondition , your right to live where you want and to many the right to live .

Don't be fooled into giving up your Country and your rights .

It only works as long as people allow themselves to believe that this is the way life is supposed to be.

Private Central Banks exist to serve their owners, to make them rich beyond the dreams of Midas and all for the cost of ink, paper, and the right bribe to the right official.

Behind all these wars, all these assassinations, the hundred million horrible deaths from all the wars lies a single policy of dictatorship.
The private central bankers allow rulers to rule only on the condition that the people of a nation be enslaved to the private central banks.
Failing that, said ruler will be killed, and their nation invaded by those other nations enslaved to private central banks.
Constant hatemongering against Muslims lies in a simple fact Muslims forbid usury, or the lending of money at interest. And that is the reason our government and media insist they must be killed or converted.
They refuse to submit to currencies issued at interest. They refuse to be debt slaves.

So off to war our children must go, to spill their blood for the money-junkies' gold.

We barely survived the last two world wars. In the nuclear/bioweapon age, are the private central bankers willing to risk incinerating the whole planet just to feed their greed?

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by bgold1212
Growth will cause the stock price to increase, which benefits the owners of Wal-Mart. It is important to note anyone can own a share or shares of Walmart!

Whether that quote is correct, or not, doesn't really matter, it was just an example of how most capitalist companies work.

But the share holders are essentially private owners, not the workers, who would never be able to afford enough shares to have any control.

Socialism is not just about having a share in the company, it is ownership of what you produce. A public owned company is not worker ownership. The workers, even if they have shares, do not have ownership and control over what they produce.

Ok, so take a hypothetical scenario in which all the workers in Walmart can decide what to produce and own their production.

How does this translate to services? Do the workers order in goods individually to the store? I don't see this as practical as shipments would become micro-vendors. How do the workers get paid for services? How do you quantify this? Socialism would result in inefficiencies of small-scale. There's a barrage of issues with implementation.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by bgold1212
In regards to healthcare systems there is a huge misnomer.

Take Switzerland for example. They have a "socialist" universal healthcare system in that every citizen is guaranteed access to basic health insurance.

Sorry but socialism is not social health care, nor any hand outs from the government.

That is modern liberalism, that the capitalist class has almost succeeded in replacing socialism with, but some of us still know the truth.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production. It requires no government. Who would be doing the hand-outs in a libertarian socialist society? Think about that.

"Anarchism is stateless socialism" - Mikhail Bakunin

Socialism is worker ownership whether that is instituted through a centralised state, labour unions, or by individuals working their own plot of land. It is the idea that liberty can only come from having access to the means to produce for your needs. That means no land, or machinery, can be monopolised by a minority class in order to make themselves wealthy by exploiting those who only have their labour to sell.

If you have the means, and work for yourself, you own 100% of what you produce. If you have to work for someone else because you own nothing, and they are lucky enough to own property, then you do not own 100% of what you produce, as a large percentage of that is taken by the property owner for their profit.

edit on 3/28/2013 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Again, the model you just described lacks practicality. What of the people who cannot physically provide for their needs? An advanced economy has much more than factories and farms. In fact, the service sector makes up about 90% of employment in the U.S. How are people going to provide for themselves with quantifiable compensation for services provided? Or do you just expect society to devolve into subsistence farming?

reply to post by SimonPeter


That is just silly lol. The last thing the government and the capitalist class wants is socialism.

Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic system, and it doesn't benefit any authoritarian system.

For any system to have complete power, and control, it has to have more economic power than those it wants to control. Capitalism is the only way a minority class can became so much more wealthy than the majority in order to have authoritarian control. It does it by monopolising the means to produce. Capitalism does not guarantee freedom. Socialism does not take away any rights. No one should have the right to exploit.

If the workers owned the means of production in common, then it would prevent any class of people gaining enough of an economic advantage to oppress the rest.

I'm not the one lying to you. The so called NWO is already happening and has been happening since the end of WWII, it is another term for the capitalist global empire, the capitalist utopia, the one world capitalist economy, complete control by a minority class of the worlds resources, and wealth creating machinery.

Agenda 21? Nothing to do with worker ownership, nothing to do with socialism.

Do you really think those at the top of the capitalist pyramid really give a damn about your freedom? Do you know anything of how the ruling classes think? You obviously realise there is a problem, you just need to realise the problem is very clever, and has conditioned you to support it.

Those who are still questioning what socialism is answer me this...

How can anarchists be socialists if socialism is some kind of state system?

Are anarchists socialists?

Yes. All branches of anarchism are opposed to capitalism. This is because capitalism is based upon oppression and exploitation (see sections B and C). Anarchists reject the "notion that men cannot work together unless they have a driving-master to take a percentage of their product" and think that in an anarchist society "the real workmen will make their own regulations, decide when and where and how things shall be done." By so doing workers would free themselves "from the terrible bondage of capitalism." [Voltairine de Cleyre, "Anarchism", Exquisite Rebel, p. 75 and p. 79]

eng.anarchopedia.org...

You have to go back to before the term was misrepresented by the establishment in order to understand what it is and the lies that have been told about it. Never rely on what the establishment is telling you, go look for yourself.

“Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality” - Mikhail Bakunin

Bakunin was one of the first anarchists.

"After all we are socialists as the social-democrats, the socialists, the communists, and the I.W.W. are all Socialists. The difference -- the fundamental one -- between us and all the other is that they are authoritarian while we are libertarian; they believe in a State or Government of their own; we believe in no State or Government." Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti, The Letters of Sacco and Vanzetti, p. 274

en.wikipedia.org...

Anarchists seek an end to private property. Our needs chain us as much as our enemies. "Liberty" without the means to exercise it is a hollow fraud. We are not free to do that which we cannot do because others deny us the resources. The capitalists' monopoly of the means of production, their control of society's wealth, enslaves us to them as surely as would a gun held to our heads. The division of the political from the economic is a bourgeois myth. True social equality requires equal access to the means of production. For this reason all anarchists are socialists (though not all socialists are anarchists).

flag.blackened.net...

For a century and a half anarchists have been overwhelmingly socialist, despite the concurrent existence of small numbers of individualists in Europe and the USA. A fruitful approach to understanding anarchism is to recognise its thoroughly socialist critique of capitalism, while emphasising that this has been combined with a liberal critique of socialism, anarchists being united with classical liberals in their advocacy of autonomous associations and the freedom of the individual.

www.guardian.co.uk...

reply to post by ANOK


Old buddy you haven't done your homework . You must have isolated yourself in the LOCAL NEWS areas . Have you ever researched AGENDA 21 . It started out as sustainable development . In that United Nations / NWO plan in which your PRESIDENTS have committed the US Private property ,Cars ,Air Condition and all of your rights will be gone . Why do you think that this and other Socialism forums have been popping up ? George Soros wants America to go Social/Communism/ Totalitarianism and he is big in buying his way through politics .Some where near half of Obamas white house staff are Socialist and Communist .
I don't like saying some one is ignorant of the situation , but you are behind the curve on this one .
The disarm America thing has to happen before you will see the real NWO . And I expect to see another major shooting soon probably a false flag one . This NWO push has powerful and ruthless people behind it .

reply to post by Druscilla

reply to post by Phoenix267


I really do try to remain civil as of late. I have changed so much it's scary. This thread however makes me cringe. You can take your socialism back to the country you found it!

Don't try and talk us into a political system that enslaves no thank you!

I'm sure we will be seeing more and more threads trying to teach how socialism is so great and we were wrong about it.. Why would we see that you ask? Because the NWO's world government will be based on socialism.

reply to post by firegoggles


Well, I'm from the USA and I was just making a thread introducing socialism and trying to explain what it is politics. Politically I'm more of myself. Don't like labels.

reply to post by Phoenix267


Why? Do you not see the misery of the citizens in country's with socialism? And from there it breeds communism. Its a lose lose type of situation and your here endorsing it(I know your just informing us )?


I didn't assume you were from any other country. The politics is though. Because the United States has never been socialist. So as I said.. no thanks.

This sparks some emotion with me because I feel at this state in the U.S. talks about socialism being "not so bad" or "misunderstood" is the very LAST things we need to be discussing. It leads to destruction or an entire country that are peasants and slaves to the system. Why on earth would you promote such a thing as an American? huh?

While I mean no ill towards any person and truly and not in a hateful disposition as I write this(although it did spark some anger for a second im certainly in a calm frame of mind now). It just amazes me that we would even consider it. I think it's equal to national suicide at least for the U.S. it would be. I mean if you want a civil war even faster than the race issue start trying to push socialism in America as a future political party and TPTB would get the chaos in America they long for so as to implement the final stages of the global government plan.
NO THANK YOU!

Someone went to school and got taught by ex-hippie professors who used to live on a "commi mune".

About 300 million dead for these Ideas, must just be bad implementation. Perhaps the thread author works in the Whitehouse where they idealize chairman Moa.

History is repeating itself. Do you know what NAZI acronym means National Socialism Nationalsozialistische Duetsche Arbeiterparti.
What's old becomes new as people forget the horrors of the past.
First you need to disarm the populace, then start class warfare, hmm here we go again!
Don't need any more info than history, I'm sure theres a reservation for me at a FEMA Kamp, where I will get the proper socailizing, what next banking is the Jews fault.

No rational discussion can take place without first admitting the history of the Idea.

Been reading all the comments throughout this thread and finally felt like putting my two cents in:

@ Druscilla - You present yourself as a highly educated person with your rhetoric, but your subtle degradation and name calling of people that believe different from you is abhorrent. Your constant offensive nature will win you no debate when you are trying to reach the minds of others.

As for the content of the topic, I find that socialism is the most disgusting form of economic/social/government construct ever. History has witnessed atrocities for over a century what socialism and communism does to its citizens. Millions upon millions have died of starvation or have been killed for this model. I will assume that not a single person that advocates this form of torture to humanity has ever lived under the thumb of a socialist country. Now, I know some of you will point to Denmark and say, "It WORKS there!" That is fine, go live there and try it.

This country was founded on the principle of personal property rights, something no other country had tried. You are free to make your own living and support your family and your own personal gains, WITHOUT VIOLATING THE NATURAL GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS OF OTHERS (Life - Liberty - and the pursuit of Happiness). There will be greed inside every economic model out there and capitalism will not escape from it. But that is where government is supposed to protect us.

The other point I want to stress is that we live in a mixed economy. This is one of many reasons we have so many problems in this country. When the government has currency based on nothing, makes as much as they want, spends it on whatever they want with no accountability and makes the working class pay for it, how long will that country stand? How long will it stand when the top 25% of wage earners are paying 86% of federal income taxes? How long will it stand when 50% percent do not pay any income tax? How long will it stand when large corporations such as GE can pay federal tax, yet receive tax incentives? How long will it stand when the citizens are made to pay for large corporation's failures (AIG or General Motors)?

I know some of you will say, "But doesn't it make you FEEL GOOD to be your brother's keeper???" Because that is the basis of every debate when it comes to any form of socialism. It is called "inhumane" if people who earn are not being made to support the one's who do not. I call it inhumane to TAKE my earnings by FORCE and support others!! Our system, brothers and sisters, is wrought with fraud in EVERY federal progam created. So for you out there that want this system, pay very close attention because our country is more socialist than at any other time in history.

reply to post by bmullini


===

As one final bite into this topic, one large tenet that has been
forgotten about in this argument over whether Capitalism or
Socialism provides the most good for the largest number of
people, is that the evidence is plain for us to all see.

On a material basis where the current state of access for
the general public to food, water, housing, transportation,
communications, child welfare is taken into account...
IT IS CLEAR TO ME...that Capitalism has provided
the MOST bang for the Buck. The Soviet Union
and Early China has convinced me that the dreary
lives of those in the Soviet Block were VASTLY inferior
to those in the capitalist west. My German relative
who travelled into so many countries he stopped
counting, recalled one big thing about Soviet countries.
...the EMOTIONALLY DEPRESSED STATE of the
people who lived their lives as DRONES in a vast
Soviet machine. Their WHOLE LIVES were Dull,
Dreary and Grey! He said the whole Soviet society
in the 1960's 70's and 80's seemed so down and
depressed as as soon as he got back into
West Germany, he was re-invigorated by the
optimism and easy access to the most basic
things of life that was missing in the Soviet Bloc.

---

On a PRACTICAL BASIS, we in the West need to CONTINUE
to practice the Capitalist/Private Property society with TWO extra
Social-like additions that STAND AS A BASIC SOLID BASE that
underpins our entire society and that is to provide and
have a SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL Health Care System and
a SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL PENSION SYSTEM which
would allow ALL to move, change jobs, be free to innovate
without having to worry about whether their health needs
will bankrupt them and where their senior years will not be
spent in abject poverty. If you REMOVE those two worries,
the whole capitalist system WILL WORK as intended because
ALL will start from an equal base and the usual stratification based
upon personal ambition, drive and base brainpower will then take those
who WANT to go higher to their desired level and those who DO NOT
have or desire the same abilities or ambitions to, at the very least,
live a SIMPLE and reasonably comfortable life. The CREAM will
always rise to the top and those types of people SHOULD be
allowed to differentiate themselves and such a system as
I mention WILL not only ALLOW the cream to rise, but
ALSO act a safety-release valve for the larger majority
to live a simple worker's life yet still be mostly safe from
times where life is NOT kind and one NEEDS some
temporary support until they get better.

The Soviet Union of the 1960's, 80 and 80's was
a classic example of the COMPLETE FAILURE of
Communism or Large Scale Socialism/Collectivism to
provide anything more than a SUBSISTENCE existence
for almost everyone.

reply to post by StargateSG7


For the sake of debate, why is it that you applaud capitalism, yet seek to add socialism to the mix??? The system works when you allow INDIVIDUALS to choose their own path. In a country that enjoys the freedom to choose what kind of health care an individual wants, can you see the restriction to that freedom once the government gets involved?? I have seen a huge jump in the cost of my employer-provided health care plan while the Obama Administration rushes to complete the Obamacare infrastructure. With this type of legislation, bureaucrats will now decide what kind of care at what period of my life I should have. I do not believe that is freedom, that is a form of control. I distinctly remember when President Obama was campaigning in 2008 and he said that he was for a single payer health care system. He also said that we needed to weigh options when grandma needed a pacemaker, maybe she just needed to take a pill instead. This type of rhetoric does not inspire freedom!! I want to live in a country where everyone can choose their own path in life, not be restricted by hunger for power and control by political elites.

We have a national pension system, it is called social security. The problem with social security is it turned into a piggy bank for the federal government a few years after its inception.

Instead of trying to find ways to nationalize problems, why can't we figure out INDIVIDUAL SOLUTIONS???? Why not start a business that empowers people to save and invest?? Why not educate individuals on the benefit of putting something aside for the future?? Why is that we need more government intervention when we can clearly see that more government creates more problems??

Understand that there is an effort to sell Communism to you described as Socialism by the Globalist group called the NWO . They really thing we are stupid enough to let them take over the USA with out a shot . But they want to disarm us incase we revolt .

When Jesus Christ said let the poor drink wine he was not alluding to the financially destitute but to the financially rich but spiritually poor and he said for they will always be with you (on the earth) remember he said it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven,.

WHY am I bringing this up?,

Socialism is actually a Christian concept, "if You have two coat's give one unto your brother whom has none", "Sell all of your possession's and give them to the poor and follow me",.

It is in the post war Kibbutz in Palestine/Israel that the most accurate form of this was achieved in at least 1800 year's but remember the paragraph were a woman and her husband hid wealth from the church that they had and she was struck dead for trying to lie to the holy spirit, those early pre-Constantine church's were collective's were the wealth was shared amongst the congregation as and when it was needed.

do you think Karl Marx invented socialism, then you are deceived he berely invented Atheist socialism in part as the church of his time was not anything like the church Christ founded, "Come and break bread with me (Sharing)" but had become a tool of state and was governed by anti Christian prince's of the church.

So remember your place and remember that communism was evil because it lacked Christian value's and socialism failed because it also lacked Christian value's but true Christian socialism is an act of faith and personal choice, just don't lie to god.