The Workers Dream: Socialism and Communism

Originally posted by NavyDoc
And when people discover they can take all they want from your garden without pitching in? Then more people see that they work to supply vegetables to people who don't pitch in and help cultivate the garden and then decide to stop cultivating the garden if they can take what they want anyway? Then the garden fails because the last guy does not want to grow tomatoes for those who can't be bothered to pick up a hoe? Socialism, although it may seem utopian on the surface, ends up as a nightmare for the workers because all of hte work will fall upon the backs of a smaller and smaller group of people willing to work. At that point, in order to keep people from starving, there is no recourse but to force people to work for their food and your utopia becomes your Orwellian nightmare.

Socialism does not succeed because people are not insects.

Your post reminds me of the 1840's socialist community outside of Boston named "Brook Farm".

Naturally, it didn't work.

The (Brook Farm) members naturally were surprised to observe that one man ploughed all day and one looked out of a window all day and both received at night the same wages. -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Even Brook Farm's creator admitted, in the end, that the experiment was

childish, empty, & sad. -Sophia Ripley

Henry David Thoreau wrote about the farm in his journal.

As for these communities, I think I had rather keep bachelor's hall in hell than go to board in heaven. -Thoreau

Nathaniel Hawthorne was also a member, but he left soon after joining because he could not stand it. He later wrote a book "The Blithedale Romance" about it.

Reply to post by Druscilla

Ipse dixit.

So rather than take ownership of your own words you opt for an attack. Cliche liberal tactic, Druscilla.

Moreover, the leftist will attempt to redefine themselves and their argument to cloak their ends.

Currently, you and your ilk are attempting to redefine ANY social benevolence as socialism, totally negating that socialism is a government construct. That is what people stand in opposition to: forced "benevolence" of private entities on behalf of others who demand a cut of a pie they have no legitimate claim to.

As stated there is no debating a lefty as they will always try to redfine things and hide from their true intentions. Your work of "fiction" (I did call it your fantasy, I will leave to you to divorce yourself from your own commentary without resorting to puerile attacks) illustrates the inner narrative of pogroms the leftist admires and yearns for to achieve their worldwide revolutionary aims.

I wouldn't be surprised if you get excited while writing up your "works of fiction", dreaming of a day where people who disagree with you are put on to trains and sent to a re-education camp. To a rational person your statements are repugnant.


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reply to post by NavyDoc


There are key differences between terms like Incentive, Coercion, and Force.
Historically, we've sundry example of systems involving force that have been politicized in Western education without the balance of examples where socialism works.
The illustration of community gardening I've given is voluntary, but, also proposed where incentives such as breaks in taxation, taxation we already have without any breaks, are on offer such that participation is an equitable consideration, but, still voluntary.
One wouldn't need garden if they didn't want. They could continue paying the already existing community housing association maintenance fees at full cost, as well as the municipality taxes at full cost.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

There are key differences between terms like Incentive, Coercion, and Force.
Historically, we've sundry example of systems involving force that have been politicized in Western education without the balance of examples where socialism works.
The illustration of community gardening I've given is voluntary, but, also proposed where incentives such as breaks in taxation, taxation we already have without any breaks, are on offer such that participation is an equitable consideration, but, still voluntary.
One wouldn't need garden if they didn't want. They could continue paying the already existing community housing association maintenance fees at full cost, as well as the municipality taxes at full cost.

Please show me some government backed socialist programs that are "voluntary" meaning that I can opt out of financing them without coercion.

Originally posted by GreenGlassDoor
Reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

The bottomline is you are trying to be rational with someone who is irrational. How far do you expect to get who somebody who has already embraced purges?

 

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I know, but sometimes I just get in the mood to bang my head against a brick wall. A lefty's preprogrammed indoctrination concerning the wonders of the collective makes a great "brick wall".

reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


Generalization much?
Name calling too? Lefty? Ilk? aha.

And attack? You're the one jumping in, all unsolicited, calling me out by name, referencing things entirely off-topic, and out of context from completely different threads.

Go home. You're drunk.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Please show me some government backed socialist programs that are "voluntary" meaning that I can opt out of financing them without coercion.

Show me where you are paying ZERO taxes in the current system?

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Please show me some government backed socialist programs that are "voluntary" meaning that I can opt out of financing them without coercion.

Show me where you are paying ZERO taxes in the current system?

edit on 27-3-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

What does that have to do with me accepting socialism? I oppose the socialist programs we already have and want the government to go back to strictly Constitutional governance. Regarding the taxes, I am on a tax strike. I no longer pay income taxes. In response to the implementation of the abominable care act and it's multiple Un-Constitutional provisions I shut down my business and now work solely under the table.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Okay,
Go go you revolutionary you.

Still. You have not really answered my question. In light of your claimed situation and position, show me any system including your ideal system that works without any taxation.
How are you going to implement it?
I think I've given a fair accounting already regarding my own proposals, so, how are you going to begin the implementation of your own ideal?
Hmm?

Reply to post by Druscilla

I have an idea: name a socialist nation that you would consider the ideal to live under.


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reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


I have an idea: Name any national government and economic system, as is, on this planet you see as most ideal?

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

Still. You have not really answered my question. In light of your claimed situation and position, show me any system including your ideal system that works without any taxation.
How are you going to implement it?

LOL, simple. Return to the Constitution. Have senators appointed by the states again so that the states actually have a voice. Ax the income tax(replace with the "fairtax". End the fed. Get out of the UN. End all foreign aid. Rework welfare so that only the truly needy get it and even then 4 years max lifetime benefit. End the bs illusion that corporations are "people". They are not and they are not entitled to the same rights as real people. Bring home the troops and have them round up the illegals. Send all illegals back home. Confiscate any property they may have to pay for the deportations. End the "anchor baby" provision. Make all governmental budget requests start at $0.00 and have them justify every single penny they request. Disband TSA and DHS. Also disband DEA and BATFE. Repeal all laws that infringe on gu ownership for American citizens. Allow congress to convene only 6 months each year and cap the number of new laws allowed each year. Every new law and budget request must reference the line in the Constitution that permits the government to carry out that activity. Repeal Roe v Wade and return that debate to the states where it belongs. Disband the US Dept of Education. Return education to the local level where it belongs. Give Puerto Rico it's independence unless they apply for statehood. Repeal Affirmative Action. It is now just legalized reverse discrimination. Repeal all "thought crimes".

I could go on and on and on with SPECIFIC actions I would take. How about you?

Originally posted by Druscilla
I think I've given a fair accounting already regarding my own proposals

Really? Where?? You have dodged and dissimulated and evaded firm answers at every turn. Is this obama I am talking with?

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

There are key differences between terms like Incentive, Coercion, and Force.
Historically, we've sundry example of systems involving force that have been politicized in Western education without the balance of examples where socialism works.
The illustration of community gardening I've given is voluntary, but, also proposed where incentives such as breaks in taxation, taxation we already have without any breaks, are on offer such that participation is an equitable consideration, but, still voluntary.
One wouldn't need garden if they didn't want. They could continue paying the already existing community housing association maintenance fees at full cost, as well as the municipality taxes at full cost.

But that is where coercion comes in...either they get with the program, or more money will be taken from them involuntarily--at gunpoint ultimately as what happens when you don't pay your taxes? Men come to take you to jail. Your socialist program is coercive at its core.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

There are key differences between terms like Incentive, Coercion, and Force.
Historically, we've sundry example of systems involving force that have been politicized in Western education without the balance of examples where socialism works.
The illustration of community gardening I've given is voluntary, but, also proposed where incentives such as breaks in taxation, taxation we already have without any breaks, are on offer such that participation is an equitable consideration, but, still voluntary.
One wouldn't need garden if they didn't want. They could continue paying the already existing community housing association maintenance fees at full cost, as well as the municipality taxes at full cost.

But that is where coercion comes in...either they get with the program, or more money will be taken from them involuntarily--at gunpoint ultimately as what happens when you don't pay your taxes? Men come to take you to jail. Your socialist program is coercive at its core.

I already tried that argument Doc. She could not understand what was wrong with forcing those not interested in the project to subsidize it for others.

reply to post by Druscilla


Druscilla, I think I love you x

The goal of socialism is communism. -Vladimir Lenin

Communism would be a perfect form of government, but it depends on humans being incorruptible. Until the day humans become perfect and trustworthy with absolute power to rule over other humans, communism will always descend into oppression and corruption. And thats on a good day.

Our founders knew humans are imperfect, corruptible and cannot be trusted with very much power, but people can be trusted with power over their own lives; succeed or fail.

Not only can people be trusted to determine the path of their own life, they must be responsible for their own life. Collectivism turns that natural human condition on its head, for the purpose of power and control over other humans. Am I responsible for your potential fulfilment? Are you responsible for mine?

No. The minute anyone is forced by penalty of law to be so, they become replaceable cogs in the wheels that operate and maintain the state. It reduces humans to be far less than humans, not only the oppressed proletariat, but the ruling class as well become less than what humans are capable of being.

I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life. Nor to any part of my energy. Nor to any achievement of mine. No matter who makes the claim, how large their number or how great their need.

Howard Roark's Courtroom Speech

From The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand

The state does not have the interest in the outcome of your life that you do. It can't, the state that has too much power over individuals only exists to maintain that power and increase it. Some of us may have noticed the sharp incline of government power impacting the lives of individuals over the past several decades alone.

People have been conditioned for generations to consider the government as the solution to any and every problem in existence. This is not an accident, it is a reflex crafted by design. Consider the indisputable fact that the more government gets involved in anything, the worse the problem becomes, yet the first thought anyone has when confronted with a problem is "There ought to be a government program that makes/forces/guarantees..."

After the United States collapses from the cancer that has been rotting us out from within for generations, I hope the lesson our civilisation will teach won't be lost on future humans. Perhaps they'll try another similar experiment like the United States on Mars, or even further into the future and know what to look for to prevent or at least delay the rot from within.

Every society carries the seeds of its own destruction, and it always seems to look like the ideology referred to as leftism, demonstrably.

Leftism, regardless of what it is currently named or what shape it currently takes is merely the unquenchable desire of humans for power to control other humans, by any means necessary which often takes the form of alleged 'compassion' always achieving just the opposite.

reply to post by Druscilla


Good answer. I like the way you broke that down so even a greedy capitalist can understand it.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I lived with someone from Denmark. They are a socialist nation. Your answer proves you do not understand socialism at all. :shk:

reply to post by Phoenix267


---

There is really nothing in the current Republican form of Government
in the USA that needs fixing EXCEPT for Two Things:

a) A SINGLE PAYER Health Care System (Let's Call it the America Cares Health Service)
It should be a BASIC system that covers EVERYONE no matter their current health
situation using an income-based fee system where FIVE pre-defined tiers of income
would have X number of dollars assigned as a monthly premium. It would cover
BASIC medical diagnosis and imaging services, general practitioner visits,
basic prescriptions and prenatal and birth care.

This system would be effective all the time and NO MATTER if one changes jobs
or gets married or has children. For catastrophic illness, BASIC generally accepted
treatments, pharmacy and diagnostics WOULD be covered and since the single payer
would have ENORMOUS clout for drugs and doctor services, basic cancer treatments,
diabetes, acute critical care (i.e. care accidents, etc.) would also be covered
using a vast re-insurance system that spreads out the risk. Even BASIC diagnostic
and preventative treatment for dentistry services would be covered.

For EXTENDED care such as advanced or unproven pharmaceutical drug delivery
systems, special services, advanced dental care, long-term Health and Elder care
could be purchased through EXTENDED HEALTH PLANS from BOTH PRIVATE
INSURER and/or the Government-lead SINGLE PAYER insurance plan.
Normal insurance underwriting standards and extra premiums WOULD
apply to the EXTENDED CARE insurance plans to foster competition.

To CLEANUP the Emergency Room debacle where colds and coughs are
holding up critical care, 24 Hour Free Immediate Care Health Clinics staffed
by trained and experienced Nurses and Doctors would take care of all those
general Cuts, Bruises, Coughs and Colds currently clogging up our Trauma
or Acute Care centres. Since these 24 hour clinics would be in almost every
neighbourhood AND have on-site X-Ray and High-Throughput CAT SCAN/MRI
imaging services, anything more serious is immediately caught and sent by
doctor referral for EMERGENCY ROOM CARE or to Long-Term Health Care
providers. Every Clinic would be connected nationally by a highly advanced
computer system to track all previous visits, pharmacy prescriptions and
imaging services. To make a PAPERLESS OFFICE, all diagnostics,
imaging, prognostic and pharmacy services would be INITIATED and
SAVED to tablet-based computers AND onto MULTIPLE LOCAL SERVERS
with automatic every-6-hour BACKUPS to regional medical computing backup centres.
Patients could track all their medical services via online web-based SECURE logins
to a master patient-accessible medical file and doctors would have their OWN access
to the more technical and private patient care databases.

b) Single PAYER and Indexed Benefits NATIONAL Pension Plan.
i.e. the Pension-USA Plan

All American workers would be contributing X number of dollars
of their every-two-weeks or monthly paycheck based upon FIVE
pre-defined tiers of income to a SINGLE NATIONAL pension plan
that kicks in at full benefits after age 67 or at REDUCED benefits
from age 55 to 66.

Since this money is POOLED, safety-based investment strategy and
cash-on-hand money management by YEARLY AUDITED professionals
would ensure solvency of the national pension plan. NO DOLLAR LIMITS
would be placed on EXTRA funds paid into plan by the worker.
If a worker changes or loses a job, the monthly or every two-weeks
premium payments will reflected UP or DOWN as they enter a
higher or lower pre-defined income tier.

Any EXTRA DOLLARS paid into the plan ABOVE the pre-defined pension
premium would be set aside FOR THAT WORKER ONLY and would increase
any paid out monthly pension plan benefit after retirement.

The key here is AUDITS done every 6 months or every year to ENSURE
proper investment and conservation of the pooled and worker-specific
funds for ALL workers who have paid into the plan. This plan should be
made MANDATORY for all workers so that the CURRENT user-managed
401k system is made obsolete since with a National Pension Plan,
it would be CERTIFIED, HIGHLY TRAINED AND AUDITED FINANCIAL
PROFESSIONALS who would be managing and investing the monies
according to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles),
CPA (Certified Public Accountant) and other mandated
CIP (Certified Investment Professional) guidelines.


Other than the two above issues, everything else is left to private hands as it is now.