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Can you reject Paul and still be a "Christian"?

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posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by bb23108
 
I just noticed a typo in the post you responded to , but too late to edit it. I meant to say 2 Thess. was a forgery. 1 Thess. was the one I was commenting on in the earlier part of my post.

What I was getting at was that Paul's version of the ascension (based on a physically ascended Jesus) and Paul's own spiritual vision of Jesus' ascended form - was the basis on which he felt saved.
I'm not thinking of anything that matches up with what you are describing.
I have studied the verses that have been presented to me in the past that seemed to be saying that, but have discovered that these were being misinterpreted and were not saying that at all.

And so Paul started proclaiming that such salvation (or re-union with the Divine) was eventually available to everyone via simply having faith or belief in Jesus' own physical death/blood sacrifice, resurrection, and ascension.
I don't subscribe to the "blood sacrifice" part. "Blood" is mentioned metaphorically in Hebrews, not universally accepted as being by Paul, but most likely very close to Paul in influence.
The "re-union with the Divine" is available now. God's spirit is given to us in that it indwells within us, but of a particular variety of God's spirit that is given through Christ. That indwelling prevents us from being able to die in a permanent sort of way.

Thus Paul's version of Christianity allowed the believer to be "let off the hook" in terms of what Jesus actually taught relative to loving God fully and one's neighbor as oneself, as real preparation for directly entering into communion with God in this life through one's own responsible self-sacrifice in God.
I am aware that there are people who interpret Paul in that way, but I think they do so wrongly.

In other words, in Paul's version, Jesus' sacrifice became a substitute for one's own self-sacrifice (real love) in the Divine.
That is getting deep into the esoterica of modern salvation theory.
I personally have stopped supporting the blown-out-of-proportion 'substitutionary' aspect of all that philosophy.

. . .
it won out over the other "contenders" at that time, and most especially the Gnostics.
I think it satisfied the needs of the early form of Gnosticism of Paul's time, with the perfect 'new Adam' of Jesus.
edit on 28-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Matthew 5
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


The Earth is still here isn't it? So that means the law is still in effect. Surprising how many times I (we) have to repeat that. It's pretty clear, the law will not disappear until the Earth disappears.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 04:52 PM
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I think this passage describes Paul perfectly.


Mark 7
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

7 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”


Paul honored Jesus with words but not in his heart. His teachings are nothing more than human rules, not the word of god.

When Jesus said this he was talking to the Pharisees. Paul was a Pharisee. Hmmm....



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

Matthew 5
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


The Earth is still here isn't it? So that means the law is still in effect. Surprising how many times I (we) have to repeat that. It's pretty clear, the law will not disappear until the Earth disappears.
What did he mean by "law"?
Look at the rest of the chapter:
Murder
Adultery
Divorce
Oaths
Eye for Eye
Love for Enemies

So Jesus meant something specific, "the law" according to his interpretation and selection of what part was true.
Jesus is the lawgiver on the mountain, the 'god' and 'Moses' of the new testament.
His law will stand forever.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Matthew 5
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


The Earth is still here isn't it? So that means the law is still in effect.

Of course it is. Are you Jewish? If not, then the Law is irrelevant, even though it still exists. If you are Jewish, then it's still there for you to look to and hope for salvation on. Good luck with that, though.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

Paul was a Pharisee. Hmmm....
Before he was coverted.
Then he gave that up as so much refuse.
Now Acts may suggest something different but I put more confidence in what Paul wrote himself than stories told about him long after the fact.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I'm not Jewish and according to Jesus the law is very relevant.


Matthew 19
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."


To enter life, keep the commandments (law), and that's straight from the horse's mouth.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


So you think Acts is fictitious yet you still believe Paul existed? If they created Acts out of thin air, what makes you think they couldn't have invented Paul?



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Matthew 5
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


The Earth is still here isn't it? So that means the law is still in effect. Surprising how many times I (we) have to repeat that. It's pretty clear, the law will not disappear until the Earth disappears.


Clever editing!! What does the other supporting verses around that verse say?



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


If those two commandments encompass all the other commandments, and Jesus "demanded" those two commandments be kept, then by extension he was also talking about the other laws as well.
edit on 28-3-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


No He wasn't. He specifically said He gave two commands. Two which encompassed all the law and prophets.

He emphasized that later by saying His yoke was easy and His burden was light.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen
 


I'm not Jewish and according to Jesus the law is very relevant.


Matthew 19
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."


To enter life, keep the commandments (law), and that's straight from the horse's mouth.

The Law is more than the Ten Commandments (nine, according to Christ.) But it's all summed up into Christ's two -- Love God, and love your neighbour as yourself. Think that's easy to do? Try doing it the way Christ did, even for a day. After you fall on your face trying to do that, maybe you'll understand why no one is saved through the Law.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Matthew 5
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


I'm not sure how any of this disproves what Jesus said. Care to point out what you're getting at?



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Matthew 5
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


The Earth is still here isn't it? So that means the law is still in effect.

Of course it is. Are you Jewish? If not, then the Law is irrelevant, even though it still exists. If you are Jewish, then it's still there for you to look to and hope for salvation on. Good luck with that, though.


Sigh. I was reluctant to get into that aspect until this matter was settled first.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


So loving your neighbor and god is hard to do? Maybe in your world it is impossible because that is what you have been taught, but in my world it is not hard at all. It's as easy as it sounds.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Matthew 5
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


I'm not sure how any of this disproves what Jesus said. Care to point out what you're getting at?


Well, I wasn't talking about that statement. But the Pharisees had no righteousness, they were self-righteous. Remember Jesus also said of those Pharisees that they were liars, serpents, hypocrites, and sons of the devil.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So why does Peter call Paul's teachings hard to understand? If Jesus' burden was light and yoke easy, why did Paul add all this extra fluff that's hard to understand?



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:19 PM
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No you cannot reject Paul and still be a Christian. Paul writes letters to fellow Christians which were the beginning of Christianity. There would be no such thing as Christianity without Paul.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen
 


So loving your neighbor and god is hard to do? Maybe in your world it is impossible because that is what you have been taught, but in my world it is not hard at all. It's as easy as it sounds.


It's not hard to do, but he said try to do it as Christ did. Which is without fail even once. We can try our hardest, but sometimes we err and need to seek forgiveness.



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


What statement were you talking about then?

If Jesus believed that the Pharisees were sons of the devil then why would he choose one to spread his message?



posted on Mar, 28 2013 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So why does Peter call Paul's teachings hard to understand? If Jesus' burden was light and yoke easy, why did Paul add all this extra fluff that's hard to understand?



Peter didn't say that they were hard for him to understand, he said the unstable and unlearned folks would stumble with them.

And you see that every day.




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