Can you reject Paul and still be a "Christian"?

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posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
 


Jesus taught grace through faith as the method of justification. Peter and John echoed it as well as Paul.


Jesus didn't even use the word Grace actually... how does one teach such a thing without using the word you're teaching?



Teaching Grace:
One can teach sarcasm with out using the word sarcasm. At some point the receiver of sarcasm learns what is happening.

Grace is the same way.

Grace, as a word is meaningless unless it is experienced. Old Testament and New show examples of Gods grace.

Would it be better understood if Jesus would say, Ok kids we are going to show this tax collector "Grace". I know he has taken more than what is fair, and you see him as a conniving littel twitt , but look, Im going to go to his house anyway to eat and fellowship with this troubled lad. Perhapse if I show him "Grace" he will learn to show "Grace" to you.
End sarcasm


To answer you thread question, I agree with AQuestion


It is a trick question (I love those). Can someone know Christ and never have read the bible? I would argue that they could. Now, if one has read the bible and rejects the letters of Paul then one must also reject Peter and the other apostles as they accepted him. Paul himself argued with the other apostles that gentiles did NOT need to be circumcised and in the end, they agreed.


A bit of my own thoughts:
Paul discovers grace in the life of Jesus, we can too. Paul makes it easier to understand, particularly in that time when not many knew the whole teachings of Jesus, they gospels weren't out yet. The Jews had a different perspective on Jesus life than the Gentiles, Paul helps give perspective to unite Jewish and gentile believers. While this task was for this time, Paul's words are indeed important for us to listen to today, as the church continues to divide itself with Christians still focus on the Sin and not the person. Grace is a lesson that needs to continually be taught.

Thanks for the great topic Akragon. I don't alway reply to your post but you always keep me thinking.
edit on 27-3-2013 by Observationalist because: Remembered OP likes it when we use the Reply button




posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I am a Christian who believes in the message of Grace, Faith, Hope, and the greatest of all Love. Sometimes i get confused when I read the NT in that Jesus himself said "Call no man Father because you have only one Father" while Paul says "I am your spiritual father".
As this causes me some concern I often think about it and my conspiratorial brain kicks in. Thats when I rely on Faith and Faith alone. It does not matter if Paul was genuine or a poser at all. Maybe Paul did hijack early Christian teachings and skew them for his own purposes but it doesn't matter because the end result that he played a very important part in establishing a Christian base of believers who have kept not only Pauls teachings but the teachings of Christ himself as well. No matter what he may have done to steer the Church in a particular direction he was unable to stifle the words of Christ. The Red Words.
I would say that if indeed he wasn't genuine, he played right into the plan unwittingly. Yes the Catholic Church were the early keepers of the Bible and until Martin Luther came along nobody knew any thing other than what the Church told them. Thank God for Martin Luther!
When I read the NT I am very careful to weigh the writings based on what Jesus said with what rings true in my heart. God made this heart and what I do in life is based what is in this heart. I mess things up when I go with whats in my head and not whats in my heart. I mess up when I go against my heart. Its that simple.
Granted there are loads of "Christians" out there spewing hate and outrage and are display not the virtues of God, but the intolerance of the carnal heart and the weakness of the flesh as I myself have been guilty of in the past before I actually "Got it".
I do realize that some of the virtues I have mentioned here were in fact written by Paul but in my own defense i will quote my Dad. "Son, there is a kernal of truth in every lie in the world. The truth is so powerful that every lie is based on some action of truth. Thats why you and your brother cant lie to me. I listen to both of your broken tales of what happened, find the consistencies, surmise the truth, then confront you with it while observing your reactions to the truth" It was a very powerful lesson and pretty much stopped me from engaging in that behavior. Probably should have had that same conversation with my brother lol.
Any ways to answer you question, yes, even if you discount the writings of Paul you can still know Christ and the Spirit of Christ and God.



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by overseer1136
 


Well said...



Granted there are loads of "Christians" out there spewing hate and outrage and are display not the virtues of God


I think I have a tendency of hunting that kind of "Christian"




posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Yes.

Paul is not the way to Salvation. Jesus is. I can ignore everything that's not written in red if I want to.



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by bb23108
 

I agree with most of what you say, especially ...

I do feel that a Christian could certainly discard Paul's take on these major aspects of Christianity - and return them to their esoteric origins. And if one practiced these matters of love and esotericism, one would be more in touch with Jesus' message and the Divine Spirit he Blessed his followers with.

Many students of theology consider that Paulinism/Paulism is distinctly different from Jesuism. Paul's fervent (some say fanatic) approach have elaborated beyond what the teaching of Jesus taught.

So perhaps the OP's question can be rephrased.

Can you accept Paul and still be a (true to Jesus) "Christian"?



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Negative,

You either accept or reject the Bible, every word of it is absolute Truth, or none of it is any truer than the Lord of the Rings



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by godlover25
 



every word of it is absolute Truth

Who told you that?



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by godlover25
 


This is the first time in this thread I've said this.... but it has to be said

I reject your answer good sir..

All or nothing?

thanks for your reply though




posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I also have a tendency to confront those "Christians". They bother me and promote this idea that real Christians are perfect when nothing could be further from the truth. "By the same measure that you judge, you shall also be judged." Thats a scary truth because if alot of them were judged the way they judge other people then they would not be able to pass muster. Its not our job to judge the actions of the world in the context of the Law but to love the world in all of its imperfections despite its sin as we have been loved by Christ. One cannot instill Faith at the tip of a sword or a judgemental word but instead by actions born out of the Spirit of Christ. St. Francis of Assisi said "Preach the Gospel every where you go and use words if necessary."



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by borntowatch
Plenty of "Christians" reject Christ's teachings all together.

Precisely, which is the reason WHY threads like this exist in the first place.

The anti-Paul movement is just one part of the Illuminati agenda targeting God's Word.

Below is the end result for those who reject the Word of God.

Bottom line is that VERY few make it to Heaven:


On August 3, 1979, Howard Pittman, a Baptist minister for 35 years, died while on the operating table during surgery and had a near-death experience.

Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into Heaven. This point was so important that the Holy Spirit told me Himself. I watched the fifty saints enter Heaven, but the point I missed was the time frame involved.

It was explained to me that at the same time those fifty saints died on Earth, 1,950 other humans also died; or only 50 out of 2000 made it into Heaven. That other 1,950 were not there. Where were they? That was only 2 ½ percent going to Heaven! Ninety seven point five percent did not make it! Is that representative of the entire world today? If so, 97 ½ percent of the population of this world today is not ready to meet God.
Placebo by Howard Pittman

Christians in Hell

The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.

The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart.

There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)

Heaven & Hell 1000 to 1

Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”

Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai

Jesus explained, “Sesame! In order for someone to be saved, they must believe and receive me sincerely deep into their hearts, but most importantly it is crucial to have a sincere heart and mind. Many who have received me end up in hell, because during the prayer of confession they simply recited the prayer without sincerity!”

Jesus also said, “Many profess they have accepted and proclaimed me into their hearts, and with their mouths believe that they are saved, since they’ve believed in me for a long time, but, it is not the length of time that determines your salvation. It is the process of bearing fruits in your character that leads you closer to attaining salvation.

Many believe blindly the incorrect teaching that simply reciting with their mouths will guarantee their salvation -- and are under an illusion that they will go to heaven. Salvation should be realized through fear and trembling and each individual must grow in sincere faith.” Jesus is heartbroken and frustrated that so many souls end up in hell because they believed erroneously.

Baptize by Blazing Fire

And in the end, most people will unfortunately receive the Mark of the beast. Many Christians will get it because they were never warned by their Church. (Revelations 13:15-18) This is why The Lord is saying that less than 1% of Pastors and less the 10% of Christians will hear the trumpet sound. LINK






edit on 27-3-2013 by Murgatroid because: Added link



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

Were there "Christians" before Paul showed up?
If so then the answer to your question is... yes, one can reject Paul and still be a Christian.
Without Paul, they would have been re-assimilated back into Judaism and would not have ever completely severed from it.
So, no, in my opinion, there would not have been a clearly defined theology to spell out the superiority of Christianity, and the comparative worthlessness of Judaism.



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by stirling
 

Jesus claimed to have come for the only for the lost tribes of israel did he not?
Not.
He said he was sent to the 'lost sheep' and then defined what that meant, the people living in Judea.
edit on 27-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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Jesus didn't even use the word Grace actually... how does one teach such a thing without using the word you're teaching?
reply to post by Akragon
 


You live it. You physically express it. Jesus was/is the Word of GOD, the LOGOS become flesh. Anything He did was a physical expression/manifestation of the Word.

But back to the question, can you be a Christian without believing Paul?
I would say yes, because many people came to faith in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and Saviour & Redeemer of all peoples before Paul came along. People came to faith before the gospels were written! Therefore, the person of Jesus the Messiah, His ministry and completed work in GOD must be found in the Jewish texts, or Old Testament. Jesus said that the scriptures spoke of Him and revealed Him. The Torah or Old Testament was all the believers of the day had to go on to prove Jesus was the promised Messiah. If you can't reveal Jesus through Old Testament alone, you have a problem, because that's all there was when He came & revealed Himself.



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by Drala
 

One of the Apostles were self apointed(after he saw a vision of Jesus).
Paul claimed that he was appointed to the Apostleship by the risen Christ.
The 'vision' was something described in Acts, so is not reliable. The 'blinding' of Paul comes from Paul describing a "thorn in the flesh", and that was combined with the forgery of a supposed Pauline letter where he describes his poor eyesight. So the logic of the writer of Acts says that Paul suffered the rest of his life from the blinding brightness of the glorious risen Jesus. So the writer is not even describing a 'vision' in the normal sense, but a literal physical encounter of a material mature.

Jesus also warned of a Benjaminite Wolf(A fasle apostle from the tribe of Benjamin)
I am not aware of Jesus ever saying anything like that.

Before Paul had his vision he was known for killing Christians was he not?
Acts says basically that Paul was in Jerusalem while Christians were being persecuted. It's not known who wrote that book but it is pretty much agreed on by biblical scholars that it was not the Luke Paul mentioned in a letter, or anyone else who was involved in any of the events described in the stories.
Paul himself said that he was not known by any of the Christians in Jerusalem, so there were no stories like that of him in existence while Paul was alive.

He also taught that Christ died on the cross and many of his teachings died there also...
The 'cross' thing was universally believed in.
The other thing I don't know where you get that from. Paul supported the traditions that existed in his time about Jesus.
edit on 27-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 06:04 PM
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Saul persecuted the Christian's before he received the sign and message on the road to Damascus so yes but you will have to look up the Arameic church and there priest's are the only one's who may provide a definitive answer but Christianity is about following Christ not Paul and Simeon Peter also came to convert the gentile's.



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 06:59 PM
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Paul claimed that he was appointed to the Apostleship by the risen Christ. The 'vision' was something described in Acts, so is not reliable. The 'blinding' of Paul comes from Paul describing a "thorn in the flesh", and that was combined with the forgery of a supposed Pauline letter where he describes his poor eyesight
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I'm sorry, but I cannot see any evidence to back up your claim that Paul's 'Thorn in the flesh' was/had anything to do with his encounter on the road to Damascus.
Paul received his sight back after prayer and laying on of hands.
So Acts is not reliable?

Is the book of Luke reliable?

Man's greatest fall and separation from GOD is to do with his heart, not some physical ailment he may or may not have.



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
I reject your answer good sir.. All or nothing?

Anyone who rejects God's Word is asking for SERIOUS trouble.

You can ignore it but it WILL cost you.


Jesus, who rebuked her and made it clear to her in no uncertain terms that it's either she was going to surrender all or nothing at all. CJ

God takes His word VERY seriously.

This is an interview with someone who had a face to face encounter with Jesus when Jesus explained to her that we MUST believe God and trust Him to protect His written word.


Nathan Leal interviews "CJ"

A Testimony of a Face to Face Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ

"You don't believe my word the Bible." "It's My responsibility as God to protect My word for you." (10 min)




posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


I suppose its a good thing the bible isn't the word of God then eh...

Said word can be found within its pages... but the entire book is not his word




posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by Lucius Driftwood
 

You live it. You physically express it. Jesus was/is the Word of GOD, the LOGOS become flesh. Anything He did was a physical expression/manifestation of the Word.
You are referring to the introduction to John's Gospel.
It seems to be talking about the manifestation of God's power that in the religion of the day was thought of as God.
It says no man had seen God.
They 'saw' something, and whatever that was, people took it as God, or this voice from the mountaintop, this light like a person hovering above the Tent of Meeting in the wilderness camp, that was real, even though the religion which testified of those manifestations had by now degenerated to the point where it was virtually worthless other than as a depository of the ancient witnesses.
Well, that thing, which did try to bring life to the people of the world long ago, it has come back, first to John the Baptist, as the herald and teacher about the light's soon return. Then as the teaching through the speech of Jesus, and by his disciples, and by the church.

If you can't reveal Jesus through Old Testament alone, you have a problem, because that's all there was when He came & revealed Himself.
The New Testament interprets the Old Testament.
The OT cannot 'prove' Jesus was the Messiah.
The Holy Spirit convicts the hearers of the Gospel of the truth of it, and the proof of its reality is in the changed lives of those who have believed.
edit on 27-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2013 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



and the proof of its reality is in the changed lives of those who have believed.


Well said my friend






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