The Dead will Rise? The Fairy tales of Religion...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by adjensen

 

-- do you believe that scripture teaches that a person whose body is destroyed cannot be saved?

No, you do.
That is your conclusion, not mine.

No it isn't, I don't believe that a person whose body is destroyed cannot be saved. Go read what I wrote again -- I explicitly said so.

reply to post by adjensen

Final point on it - in case you never knew, but Jesus and John fulfilled the old (and otherwise unfulfilled) promise made by Elijah to Elisha for a "double portion of the spirit" at the same location of Jesus' baptism at the Jordan River where John had a vision of what could very easily be described as a double portion of the spirit coming down from heaven and alighting like a dove on the baptized Jesus fulfilling the old promise, now kept. The whole prophetic frame of the BIble is all about promises kept with integrity.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Jesus wasn't a liar.

Jesus did not say John was a reincarnated Elijah.
The disciples were contesting Jesus' statement that he would die and be raised in three days, based on their belief that Elijah had to come first before there could be a resurrection.
Jesus was arguing that he could, because John was the one who was prophesied, so took the place held in a lot of people's minds as most likely to be filled by Elijah.

reply to post by jmdewey60


He said that John WAS Elijah, yes, and in other instances John is referred to as having the spirit of Elijah (same difference) because the spirit of a person IS that person.

reply to post by Akragon

Don't believe the hype people.... Zombies are fantasy... You can find them in movies, video games, and story books...

But they will never be a reality...

Or will they?

Wait a minute! It could happen.
5 Real Diseases That Could Make You...

You know my stance on Christianity, and the bible. But just because our view of reality as a society seems to dictate certain events as being implausible or impossible, doesn't mean they are.

Historically, and even contemporarily(is that a word?), our own sciences hold true now, things that at one time would have been considered fairy tales and fantasy. That an entity, whatever you want to call him/her/it could raise the dead from their graves is not so far fetched to me in the grand scheme of things we humans don't comprehend about the very nature of reality itself.

Just my two shillings. S&F.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

He said that John WAS Elijah, yes, and in other instances John is referred to as having the spirit of Elijah (same difference) because the spirit of a person IS that person.

That was an angel telling John's mother that he would "go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah".

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by Akragon

 

Don't believe the hype people.... Zombies are fantasy... You can find them in movies, video games, and story books...

But they will never be a reality...

Or will they?

Wait a minute! It could happen.

5 Real Diseases That Could Make You...

You know my stance on Christianity, and the bible. But just because our view of reality as a society seems to dictate certain events as being implausible or impossible, doesn't mean they are.

Historically, and even contemporarily(is that a word?), our own sciences hold true now, things that at one time would have been considered fairy tales and fantasy. That an entity, whatever you want to call him/her/it could raise the dead from their graves is not so far fetched to me in the grand scheme of things we humans don't comprehend about the very nature of reality itself.

Just my two shillings. S&F.

Always a pleasure to hear from you my friend... your shillings are always a welcome donation

Lets look at reality though... within three hours the body starts to decompose... Rigamortis sets in... the muscle fibres within the body start to deteriorate...

Now we're actually not talking about people who recently died here... we're talking about people who are long dead, rising from their graves... essentially skeletons walking the earth...

And lets not forget climbing out of coffins that are six feet under...

There is no reality to "the walking dead" or the dead rising from their graves....

It is purely 100% fantasy

reply to post by Akragon

These words have a spiritual meaning, yet the religions of the world have turned them into a fairy tale...

i agree that the words have spiritual meaning and i hope you are not talking about resurrection because then i won't agree.
Also did Jesus pbuh 'rise from dead' or resurrect?
I think nobody rose from dead till now, even lazarus could be just in coma or something.

reply to post by logical7

i agree that the words have spiritual meaning and i hope you are not talking about resurrection because then i won't agree.

I already answered that question for another member... please read the thread

Also did Jesus pbuh 'rise from dead' or resurrect?

I don't know... He said "if you destroy this temple, in three days I will raise it up"... I consider him to be what he called himself... that being "the truth"... so what does that tell you?

He may have been the exception to the rule...

Even Job believed that he would rise from the dead.

Check Job 19
Where he states his belief--

25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body,yet in my flesh shall I see God:

It is enough for me.

reply to post by occrest


Even the prophets make mistakes...

On a side note which has nothing to do with this thread.... Job also believed in reincarnation...

Can you deny reincarnation exists?

Semantics. You call it reincarnation, I call it resurrection. I will not become a tree, a fish, or bacteria. My body may become food for such things, I won't care. When the trumpet sounds, and He calls, I shall see him in the flesh. Whether it be to Glory, or to Judgement, is for God to decide. I will still be there, even if for a very short time.

I recommend waiting three days prior to cremation just to be on the safe side and give the spirit all the time it needs to leave every cell and corpuscle.

Originally posted by occrest
Semantics. You call it reincarnation, I call it resurrection. I will not become a tree, a fish, or bacteria. My body may become food for such things, I won't care. When the trumpet sounds, and He calls, I shall see him in the flesh. Whether it be to Glory, or to Judgement, is for God to decide. I will still be there, even if for a very short time.

Ahem... That is not semantics... they are two different things

Believe what you will though... Your flesh will die just like everyone elses...

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I recommend waiting three days prior to cremation just to be on the safe side and give the spirit all the time it needs to leave every cell and corpuscle.

Well well brother...

Do I detect doubt?

Quite unexpected from you

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I recommend waiting three days prior to cremation just to be on the safe side and give the spirit all the time it needs to leave every cell and corpuscle.

It's ironic, because I don't think that it makes any difference, but I'll be buried, not burned. Already have my final resting place purchased and laid out, in fact... visit it every couple of months or so

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

i agree that the words have spiritual meaning and i hope you are not talking about resurrection because then i won't agree.

I already answered that question for another member... please read the thread

Also did Jesus pbuh 'rise from dead' or resurrect?

I don't know... He said "if you destroy this temple, in three days I will raise it up"... I consider him to be what he called himself... that being "the truth"... so what does that tell you?

He may have been the exception to the rule...

i tried to find your opinion on resurrection, what i found that you don't believe in it (hope i got it right)

Mark's Gospel says that the claim about temple may be a false witness, and he rose in 36hrs only not 3 days but thats not the topic.

On topic,
In next life/afterlife, how can a soul ever experience anything without sense organs? How can it comprehend anything without a brain.
Would we be balls of light glowing say pink when shy and red when angry and white at peace! Maybe even that is not possible as who would 'see' the colours anyway!

reply to post by logical7

i tried to find your opinion on resurrection, what i found that you don't believe in it (hope i got it right)

I believe its possible... but I also believe its not the way its normally done...

After a certain amount of time has passed... the body can not be used

Jesus might have resurrected... but on the other hand I find it possible he survived his execution.

In any case his death has no bearing on my beliefs... his life does.

Mark's Gospel says that the claim about temple may be a false witness, and he rose in 36hrs only not 3 days but thats not the topic.

Which passage would that be?

In next life/afterlife, how can a soul ever experience anything without sense organs? How can it comprehend anything without a brain.

The brain is just meat my friend... meat with electrical signals running through it...

We are more then just meat...

Would we be balls of light glowing say pink when shy and red when angry and white at peace! Maybe even that is not possible as who would 'see' the colours anyway!

Unfortunately I've never been blessed with information about the afterlife... I only KNOW it exists, and I've been there...

At birth a "veil" is placed over our eyes hiding our previous existence/state of being

reply to post by Akragon

I believe its possible... but I also believe its not the way its normally done... Jesus might have resurrected... but on the other hand I find it possible he survived his execution. In any case his death has no bearing on my beliefs... his life does.

i believe he survived. Well i am a muslim and i do believe in resurrection and the Qur'an compares it to how the dead earth gets 'alive' after a rain.
I don't know if you believe in Judgement day, it kind of makes the body a requirement to stand in the court and get a chance to defend.

Which passage would that be?

Mark 14,
57 And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying,
58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this
temple that is made with hands, and in
three days I will build another, not
made with hands.'"
59 Yet not even so did their testimony agree.

The brain is just meat my friend... meat
with electrical signals running through
it... We are more then just meat...

we are sure more than just meat but its the brain, neurons and the signals that give us conciousness, ofcoure i don't know if a soul can have it too without a brain.

At birth a "veil" is placed over our eyes
hiding our previous existence/state of
being

yes i agree, i think the 'veil' solidifies slowly as i have watched babies smile at invisible things in corners!!

reply to post by logical7

i believe he survived. Well i am a muslim and i do believe in resurrection and the Qur'an compares it to how the dead earth gets 'alive' after a rain.

I believe both are possible... though I will not take a side on the issue because as I've said his death has nothing to do with my beliefs... his life does.

I don't know if you believe in Judgement day, it kind of makes the body a requirement to stand in the court and get a chance to defend.

Judgement day comes after the death of the body... Thus the body is not required

God judges the spirit of man, not the flesh...

and how exactly might you defend yourself when God knows everything you've done?

Judgement day isn't a day in court, where you can defend yourself... at that point you are at the mercy of your accusers... and God

Mark 14,
57 And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying,
58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this
temple that is made with hands, and in
three days I will build another, not
made with hands.'"
59 Yet not even so did their testimony agree.

There is no false witness to his resurrection in that passage... They were trying to accuse him of something he said... and their testimonies did not agree with one another...

we are sure more than just meat but its the brain, neurons and the signals that give us conciousness, ofcoure i don't know if a soul can have it too without a brain.

Is that what gives us consciousness?

Meaning neurons and signals can make decisions depending on how they are wired?

Or are those neurons and signals what connects the spirit with the body... through which we communicate with the vessel we inhabit... Kinda like a driver in a car....

A car can not function without a driver... correct?

yes i agree, i think the 'veil' solidifies slowly as i have watched babies smile at invisible things in corners!!

reply to post by Akragon

Judgement day isn't a day in court, where you can defend yourself... at that point you are at the mercy of your accusers... and God

and how will the accusers accuse?

Mark 14,
57 And some stood up and bore false
witness against him, saying,
58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy
this
temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not
made with hands.'"
59 Yet not even so did their testimony
agree.

There is no false witness to his
resurrection in that passage... They
were trying to accuse him of
something he said... and their
testimonies did not agree with one
another...

i din't say about witness to resurrection, i said Jesus' pbuh claim to rebuilt temple is shown as said by a false witness. So Jesus pbuh may or may not have said that. In later gospels its just shown as true but in Mark it was a false witness trying to prove him guilty by any means.

Is that what gives us consciousness?
Meaning neurons and signals can
make decisions depending on how
they are wired? Or are those neurons and signals what
connects the spirit with the body...
through which we communicate with
the vessel we inhabit... Kinda like a
driver in a car.... A car can not function without a
driver... correct?

yes conciousness is due to neurons and harmonious firing of neurons.

Or do you think the spirit/soul resides in the brain somewhere?

The soul is not tangible. Its in the other realm.

In islamic teachings, the soul leaves the body when we sleep, like the dreamwalkers in the movie Avatar.

I think the soul requires a body for its expression or maybe we are just an illusion and expression of our soul,
like Einstein said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
then the soul may just express itself again in another form in afterlife.