Patriotism and Religion - The Worst Killers of All Time

In order to avoid comments about the accuracy of the heading.

- Diseases and Animals are not counted in.
- Man vs Man
- Individually the reasons might be different and it usually comes to the greed and power of the leaders, although as brain washing tools patriotism and religion have been the most lethal weapons.On more wider approach most of the reasons for a war can be reduced to one word - ego

When we take look at the historical wars, whether it would be Medieval war or more modern war, the main reason how people are made to believe into the rightfulness of the war is usually either patriotism, religion or both of them.

We all know that the leaders usually simply want more power or money, although as most people do not want a war, a reason must be found to make them believe into it. And that is where the Religion and Patriotism come in.
Everybody has an ego and that is a trigger, which can be used to turn a group of peaceful individuals into an army.

Think on the reasons of the wars. Whether it was a historic war or modern was, the reason was always similar to:

"Our country needs to be the most poweful, more rich, bigger" - good example Hitler - WW2 - We can bring a lot of example to this one, like nearly all the colonization. The words might differ, although the point is nearly always the same.

"They do not listen to us" Also religion, but often, when certain region decides to do act differently from other areas, it is not allowed, even though they are peaceful.

"They are against us" - WW1 - Gavrilo Princip and his group killed the Archduke and this was used as a motive for war and the army was made believe that the war was because they killed our leader without acknowledgeing at first that it had much more complex reasons for getting more power and only one citizen of Serbia was behind it, not all. (Also they had simply annected Bosnia years before, which created the conflict at first place, they wanted more power, easy) Similar to Afghanistan war for capturing Osama.

"They are stealing from us" Even though nobody truly is stealing from anyone. Example regions trying to become into countries. Nowadays it is more political and can be diplomatically solved, although historically, even though the region might have had different languge, different culture, they were not let go. The brainwashing was directed towards the trigger of patriotism. We lose our power. Example: countries who have come from Russian Empire. They are different from Russia, although they are not easily let go. Imagine a situation, where one of the states of USA, was entirely Spanish by native. The official language might be English, although everybody speaks Spanish and the culture differs from other states. If they wanted to become into an individual country, it would make lots of problems, if not war, as if they were stealing from USA.

"They do not believe in God, sinners." - Nearly all medieval wars. 1200-1400. All the murders by the relgious countries, when somebody thought differently.

There are other ways to word these, simply gave you the idea with these examples.

In the simplest terms, nearly every war and genocide can be taken back to this. The real reasons might be power and greed by the leader, although the majority of the people are made to believe in the war by pushing the buttons of patriotism and religion.

Please do not comment on my semantics, you get the point. That is what matters not how I used the words or how accurately I said something. I am not saying patriotism is bad, although it is too much used as and excuse for war.

The history of religion is one of the reasons why I am not religious. How can I believe into Christ or God, when it was used as an excuse to kill millions of people, simply to gain more power and control over people. Bible is against killing, yet so many were killed in order to spread the word of the god.Absurdic.

I believe religion was still necessary for the advancement of our species. It is sort of a precursor to law. Once humans were introduced to religion they became more than just animals. However with the advent of science I believe that religion is no longer necessary and that we must abolish it to move on as a species. Good thread my friend.

reply to post by Cabin


Well said sir, I couldnt agree more.These veiled control constucts have held back humanity since the dawn of time.Untill human kind wakes up and rejects these shackles, we can never evolve to our true potential.

reply to post by Elvis Hendrix


I don't entirely agree with your statement as I believe religion was necessary for cultural developement

Originally posted by GetLogic
reply to post by Elvis Hendrix

 

I don't entirely agree with your statement as I believe religion was necessary for cultural developement

I think we might have to agree to differ on that one mate.

reply to post by Elvis Hendrix


Hear me out. At one point we were no better than monkeys running around raping, killing and hunting as all animals do. But religion gave man a greater purpose and they could find a sort of unification through this. Religion brought upon culture to our species, art, primitive literature. Through this unification our species worked together for a common "good." With our culture now so developed people began to question the origins of god and reality. Through this we have science. And with that religion is no longer useful to our species.

reply to post by GetLogic


I understand your train of thought, and maybe it has been one of many catalyists in our development, but has it been for our good? I belive not. Any grouping of people,a village, a tribe, will create its own culture. Its own art, music, morality etc. I belive everyone knows basic right from wrong, apart from the mentally deranged. I dont think we have ever needed religion. As i said before, I think it has held us back.

I would refer you to The War Audit, a statistical analysis of the root causes of historical conflicts, and how much blame could be laid at the foot of religion (since the general belief is usually "a lot, if not all".)

Using a scale of 0 to 5, where "0" meant absolutely no religious entanglement and "5" meaning "completely a religious conflict", the study found, of all known conflict, there were only three that scored a "5" -- the Crusades, the Muslim Expansion and the Protestant Reformation wars. In addition, about 60% of historical conflict scored a "0" -- religion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

That's what the actual research, rather than supposition or guesswork, shows.

reply to post by adjensen


you know someone is gonna do you a mighty big list dont you?

reply to post by Elvis Hendrix


I don't think there would be culture without religion. Yes religion has damaged our species incredibly in history (Christian Dark Ages) But I still believe that without religion we would be a bunch of animals raping and killing. However, I guess there is enough raping and killing in religion itself. But what can you base a culture on if there is no religion. Unless I am wrong I do not believe there were any nations in ancient history that were atheist. Religion builds culture.

It's called motivators and there are a lot of them. Fundamentally, greed and power is the killer. Greed and power corrupts. The best that man can offer, religion and nationalism has been apart of the best, but the best that man has to offer is always corrupted by those who allow greed and power to drive their motives.

It is hard to blame what the OP has suggested since the typical foundations have nothing to do with killing, so I guess one could say that Man is the biggest killer since that is what we do no matter how good the intension are.

reply to post by GetLogic


The major religions were embattled into indigenous peoples, through invasion and enslavement.The point is these far flung colonies never had a chance to evolve themselves.

Originally posted by Elvis Hendrix
reply to post by GetLogic

 

I understand your train of thought, and maybe it has been one of many catalyists in our development, but has it been for our good? I belive not. Any grouping of people,a village, a tribe, will create its own culture. Its own art, music, morality etc. I belive everyone knows basic right from wrong, apart from the mentally deranged. I dont think we have ever needed religion. As i said before, I think it has held us back.

edit on 25-3-2013 by Elvis Hendrix because: (no reason given)

I think in a way you're both right. Religion has done plenty of bad, but it has done a few good things along the way as well.

I'm neither religious or patriotic though, just for the record

reply to post by Elvis Hendrix


Which is very unfortunate, however I am referring to the rise of religion, not the inquisition or the crusades or anything of that sort. Think more of Mesopotamia and the rise of civilization.

Originally posted by adjensen
I would refer you to The War Audit, a statistical analysis of the root causes of historical conflicts, and how much blame could be laid at the foot of religion (since the general belief is usually "a lot, if not all".)

Using a scale of 0 to 5, where "0" meant absolutely no religious entanglement and "5" meaning "completely a religious conflict", the study found, of all known conflict, there were only three that scored a "5" -- the Crusades, the Muslim Expansion and the Protestant Reformation wars. In addition, about 60% of historical conflict scored a "0" -- religion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

That's what the actual research, rather than supposition or guesswork, shows.

True.

Although, all of these three wars, had strong consequences for the latter history. These wars shaped the future of Europe. Many nations suffered for centuries because of the crusades under oppressors. I am not sure about how the Muslim expansion shaped the future of Asia due to lack of thorough knowledge in Asian history. + there is quite a number of wars, where religion was more than 0, but less than 5 in the audit.

And for nearly every other war patriotism is the tool of influence to get people to fight. If you take a look at any of the wars, basically all of them are wars, where some nation wants to be better than others or simply finds a reason how somebody insulted them. That is patriotism being used as a tool of influence to get people to fight, It does not work for all, although many are tricked into believing they are fighting for the good and after that simply who does not obey is made to obey or killed.

So generally speaking these two are the main reasons for nearly every war. Although religion counts much less than patriotism, but it is still a significant number two.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
It's called motivators and there are a lot of them. Fundamentally, greed and power is the killer. Greed and power corrupts. The best that man can offer, religion and nationalism has been apart of the best, but the best that man has to offer is always corrupted by those who allow greed and power to drive their motives.

It is hard to blame what the OP has suggested since the typical foundations have nothing to do with killing, so I guess one could say that Man is the biggest killer since that is what we do no matter how good the intension are.

I agree with you. The heading I decided for is a bit misleading. I tried to explain it in the text also.

Greed and power ARE the main factors although these matter only for the leaders, not the armies themselves, armies believe they are fighting for their country (patriotism) or god (religion). There are several nice quotes about the matter that most wars should be fought between the leaders. The people fighting are usually tricked to believe they are fighting for their country, although usually they just earning more riches and power to their leaders. They do not die for their country, but the fact that their leaders want to be more powerful and rich.

reply to post by GetLogic


Fine, but you cant just dismiss the inquisition or the crusades because it fits your argument. They are just two examples of where the entire idea of an organised religion, has created chaos and stunted cultures irreversibly.

Originally posted by Elvis Hendrix
reply to post by GetLogic

 

Fine, but you cant just dismiss the inquisition or the crusades because it fits your argument. They are just two examples of where the entire idea of an organised religion, has created chaos and stunted cultures irreversibly.

yes, man can abuse faith for his own purposes, just like he can views on the economic system (communism), sex (gang rape) etc


Your problem here is man (woman)


See

reply to post by Elvis Hendrix


I have no intentions of dismissing these things. I am aware of the chaos it has created. I am in no way trying to stick up for these conquerors. I am not even religious. All I am saying is religion is necessary for culture. Chaos: irrelevant.

Originally posted by GetLogic
reply to post by Elvis Hendrix

 

I have no intentions of dismissing these things. I am aware of the chaos it has created. I am in no way trying to stick up for these conquerors. I am not even religious. All I am saying is religion is necessary for culture. Chaos: irrelevant.

Why is it necessary? Put ten people in a field, and in ten years you will have music and art and relationships and
stories and dwellings. That is culture, and that culture will evolve. Culture is just what people do.