Department Of Homeland Security is NOT Stockpiling Ammo

What's with the flood of topics suggesting that ATS claims to be a reputable news site?

Ok, this is a great thread and I've learned much. It makes total sense how these government contracts and bids works, revising the actual orders.

I do have one question though, where is all the ammo? Why are people having trouble obtaining ammo?

Does anyone know?

Originally posted by govspy911
If you really believe there is no stockpiling going on, then where has all the ammunition gone? Just answer that, since you chose not to while replying to my last post. There is no ammunition available, and this is the case in every Wal-Mart, gun store, sporting goods store, and all online ammo sources. Where did it all go? If you can answer that, then perhaps you can add some weight to your argument. If you can explain to me where all the ammo is hidiong, then I might be convinced it isn't being stockpiled.

Sir, I have explained it more than once across a couple of separate threads here. The shortage is a secondary effect of the government ammunition issue, from fear that the average and not-so-average gun owner have about their second amendment rights. Many more people are buying and stockpiling ammunition because of a lot of the anti-gun legislation and such.

Is there anything wrong with a gun owner stockpiling ammunition? Absolutely not. But people need to get the facts and the numbers straight about all of this. Even if you were to say that the government were getting a lump sum of 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition (which is NOT what is happening!), taking 1.6 billion out of the 5.5 billion rounds of small arms ammunition produced annually could not possibly be the sole cause of an ammunition shortage. The numbers dont even come close to adding up to that.

Oh yes they are stockpiling ammo, and for good reason!

It's for the zom-bees! All those busy ghosts running around with swords and shooting up theaters.

What do you think the guillotines are for?

It's for The Joker!

Originally posted by Theimp
This is some heavy 1984 brainwashing right here. War is peace. Up is down. Black is white.

Yeah and you're a racist if you dont support what the democrats are trying to do and you're a terrorist if you dont support the republicans.

...and God help you if you're a libertarian because then you are just plain crazy.

reply to post by tide88


What are you....a government Shill???
Why won't she answer Congress's questions concerning the purchase of over a billion rounds???

Originally posted by govspy911

They have also order over 2000 Striker, Heavy Wheeled Combat Vehicles.

Already discussed multiple times. The order was a navy order, not a DHS order. The original article that claimed that DHS bought 2700 MRAPS was a hoax.

NAVSTAR SIGNS 880 MILLION DOLLAR DEFENSE CONTRACT

Lisle-based Navistar Defense LLC landed an $880 million order from the U.S. Marine Corps to upgrade more than 2,700 mine resistant ambush protected vehicles, the company announced Tuesday.

The Navistar International Corp. subsidiary will retrofit the MaxxPro vehicles with new rolling chassis to improve their off-road capability.

BUSINESSWEEK CORRECTION ON DHS MRAP PURCHASE

Update: An earlier version of this post included a figure of over 2,700 vehicles, as cited from the original RT link. This figure likely comes from a press release from Navistar Defense, mentioning delivery of 2,717 to the U.S. Marine Corps. A DHS Spokesman confirmed with Business Insider that they have only 16 nationwide.

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

DHS has only 16 modified MRAPS.

They are solely responsible for the drying up of the ammunition supply

Really? The Ammo Shortage back in 08-10 was much worse then it is today and the DHS orders in those years were not as high as they are today.

Winchester Ammunition
4/7/2009
Winchester Ammunition, like other ammunition manufacturers, has seen the demand for our products increase significantly since last fall. To meet that increased demand, our operations are running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Our team is literally working around the clock to make quality ammunition available for purchase. We remain absolutely committed to meeting the growing needs of our customers.

2009 WINCHESTER PRESS RELEASE ON AMMO SHORTAGE

2009 USA TODAY FEAR OF REGULATION DRIES UP AMMO SUPPLIES

CHEYENNE, Wyo. — Concern that the Obama administration could impose a new ban on some semiautomatic weapons is driving worried gun owners to stockpile ammunition and cartridge reloading components at such a rate that manufacturers can't meet demand.

USA TODAY 2013 GUN STORES REPORT AMMO SHORTAGE

But retailers say much of the demand is from gun owners who are stockpiling in case certain weapons are banned, who believe that economic chaos may be coming, or who are driven by rumors of inevitable background checks or rising taxes on ammunition. Gun sellers and owners say a run on ammunition began shortly after President Obama was re-elected, and has intensified in the gun-violence debate since the December mass killing of 20 children and six adults at a school in Newtown, Conn.

So you see, there is absolutely zero proof that those orders from the DHS are causing a shortage in ammo.

THEY ARE STOCKPILING AMMO....THAT IS A FACT!

Actually that is about the furthest thing from a fact as possible. As explained numerous times in previous post (with links to the contacts) those orders are over a 5 year period. On top of that the only orders that have actually been awarded are the smaller orders. In the OP I have linked the 21.6 million ammunition order was actually modified and the final order was for only 140,000 bullets.

reply to post by flyswatter


That was quite the watered down and evasive answer anyone could have come up with. Are you saying the the shortage is caused by gun owners, or by government fear of gun owners. I am a commander of a group of rifleman (and 1 woman) with the US Constitutional Militia (Alpha Co., 1st Rifle Battalion). We train extensively on the range and buy a lot of ammo. We never had trouble getting ammo from any of our sources. The peak of gun owners stockpiling came on the heals of Obama being re-elected, and it hardly put a dent in the supply, even with preppers buying up HUGE quantities. Gun owners, especially those who own Ar15 rifles, have always purchased large quantities since it is cheap and plentiful, or at least WAS. Members of Congress would not stick their necks into this if there wasn't something amiss. I implore all of you to look beyond this OP's propaganda and look for yourselves. Make some calls, listen to the news. They are stockpiling. The only question I have is, "Why"?

Originally posted by govspy911
reply to post by flyswatter

 

That was quite the watered down and evasive answer anyone could have come up with. Are you saying the the shortage is caused by gun owners, or by government fear of gun owners. I am a commander of a group of rifleman (and 1 woman) with the US Constitutional Militia (Alpha Co., 1st Rifle Battalion). We train extensively on the range and buy a lot of ammo. We never had trouble getting ammo from any of our sources. The peak of gun owners stockpiling came on the heals of Obama being re-elected, and it hardly put a dent in the supply, even with preppers buying up HUGE quantities. Gun owners, especially those who own Ar15 rifles, have always purchased large quantities since it is cheap and plentiful, or at least WAS. Members of Congress would not stick their necks into this if there wasn't something amiss. I implore all of you to look beyond this OP's propaganda and look for yourselves. Make some calls, listen to the news. They are stockpiling. The only question I have is, "Why"?

Make some calls, listen to the news? Rather than listen to others put their spin on things, I'll go ahead and deal with the facts without interpretation - the contracts for the orders themselves, and the amount of ammunition produced in the United States.

So here, I will state it again:

5.5 billion rounds of small arms ammunition produced in the US each year. Lets go with the "feared number" of 1.6 billion rounds for the contracts. That ranges from 3 to 5 year delivery period, so lets call it 4 on average. 1.6 billion across 4 years, 400 million per year. 5.5 billion - 400 million = 5.1 billion rounds per year. There is no possible way that the government is responsible for a shortage solely due to buying up ammunition.

This shortage is caused by the public fear that people have about their second amendment rights. It is not my place to say a person is right or wrong about that fear, but we all know that many ARE in fact scared about losing their rights and their guns. Many average and not-so-average gun owners are choosing to buy as much as they can, both for use and for stockpiling.

Do they have the right to do this? Absolutely. Do I feel there is anything wrong with it? Not in the least bit, I support a person's right to be able to do it. But is the government's total of 1.6 billion averaged over 4 years causing the shortage because they are buying everything up? Not even remotely close. The numbers do not even come close to supporting that conclusion.

You can put aside what is in the OP. Put aside news reports, editorial pieces, or anything with commentary from either side of the fence. Deal with the facts and the actual numbers.

So if i understand the gist of your op. Because the dhs accumulated their 1.2 billion rounds over 1 to 1 1/2 years that means they are not stockpiling? Please don't try to paint ATS'ers as being stupid enough to buy that nonsense.
They are buying rounds, they are buying auto weapons and they are buying armored vehicles. Next you'll be saying they are buying this stuff to keep the companies from going out of business.

Originally posted by tmeister182
So if i understand the gist of your op. Because the dhs accumulated their 1.2 billion rounds over 1 to 1 1/2 years that means they are not stockpiling? Please don't try to paint ATS'ers as being stupid enough to buy that nonsense.
They are buying rounds, they are buying auto weapons and they are buying armored vehicles. Next you'll be saying they are buying this stuff to keep the companies from going out of business.

The DHS owns 16 MRAPs and they have no current orders for more. When you can point me to a DHS order for more, we might actually listen.

Department Of Homeland Security is NOT Stockpiling Ammo

You wish!

They are stockpiling guillotines too.

Obama is on the way to your house right now! He's making a list! He's checking it twice! He's gonna find out if you have a pink teddy bear next to your computer!

As we speak!

Does it matter the time period that the ammo purchases are to be fulfilled? A PO is a PO.Not sure if I am reading this right but it reads to me anyway that this order may be fulfilled in a 12 month window with the option of up to 4 "option" years. Base and option being the key words here.

ATK March 12, 2012
Source

This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.

Here the is the solicitation for one of the DHS request with up to 70 million rounds a year for a 5 year period.
source (Read amendment two for update)

Since the maximum total is different (350 mil) I do not believe this is the same bid that was awarded to ATK for 450 million rounds.


What about the armored vehicles?
Source

DHS recently retrofitted 2,717 Mine Resistant Protected armored vehicles

Now I believe this number is off but on March 15, 2012 (Two days after ATK being rewarded the ammo contract coincidence..maybe ) Navistar was rewarded a contract for the US Army upgrading the chassis.
Navistar

This may not be for DHS but it seems there is a total of possibly 36 MRAPs.
Source


Bottom line I just want to know when I can buy ammo cheap again, that is when I can find IT!!!

Side note I do find it funny how much has been purchased under the Obama Administration...

reply to post by tide88

"The problem I have, is that posters here just blindly believe what people post, without actually doing any type of research to see if the information is indeed factual, or just plain false."

Thats crap, I always fact check...

I am not buying the DHS explanations about the ammo. No matter how you see it, it is still more than is needed.

But the manufacturers are not blameless. They could simply limit their delivery to 50% of production. So they are complicit in the shortages.

Plus it isn't simply 9mm or .40 cal hollow points.

It is EVERYTHING.

Originally posted by the4thhorseman
Does it matter the time period that the ammo purchases are to be fulfilled? A PO is a PO.Not sure if I am reading this right but it reads to me anyway that this order may be fulfilled in a 12 month window with the option of up to 4 "option" years. Base and option being the key words here.

ATK March 12, 2012
Source

This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.

Here the is the solicitation for one of the DHS request with up to 70 million rounds a year for a 5 year period.
source (Read amendment two for update)

Since the maximum total is different (350 mil) I do not believe this is the same bid that was awarded to ATK for 450 million rounds.


What about the armored vehicles?
Source

DHS recently retrofitted 2,717 Mine Resistant Protected armored vehicles

March 15, 2012 (Two days after ATK being rewarded the ammo contract coincidence..maybe )

Navistar

MRAP

The International® MaxxPro® is Navistar Defense’s Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle and incorporates the latest design in armoring technology. Extensively tested by the military and used in theater today, the MaxxPro features a V-shaped hull and other design features that greatly improve survivability. With so much protection, it’s the vehicle that every crew wants when they’re out in the field.

Bottom line I just want to know when I can buy ammo cheap again, that is when I can find IT!!!

I'll repeat it once again - the DHS does not have an order for 2,717 MRAPs.

The order for 2,717 MRAPs is for the USN and USMC. Contract M67854-07-D-5032 provides for 2,717 rolling chassis for MRAPs, with a contract value of $879,923,195. This covers the chassis, retrofitting, etc. These are to be produced by Navistar Defense LLC and delivery is supposed to be completed by October of 2013. You can search the contract number in the FPDS and see the information for yourself.

If you are going to put "facts" out there, you should probably make sure your "facts" are in fact accurate.

reply to post by flyswatter


Actually if you read my post again I updated the information on that part.

LISLE, Ill., March 15, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Navistar Defense, LLC received an award to conduct the installation work associated with its January order to upgrade 2,717 International® MaxxPro® Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles with a new vehicle chassis. The $21 million contract from the U.S. Army Contracting Command is just one of Navistar's many reset offerings aimed at revitalizing existing defense assets for future missions.

But it does seem our numbers do not match...

Originally posted by the4thhorseman
reply to post by flyswatter

 

Actually if you read my post again I updated the information on that part.

LISLE, Ill., March 15, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Navistar Defense, LLC received an award to conduct the installation work associated with its January order to upgrade 2,717 International® MaxxPro® Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles with a new vehicle chassis. The $21 million contract from the U.S. Army Contracting Command is just one of Navistar's many reset offerings aimed at revitalizing existing defense assets for future missions.

But it does seem our numbers do not match...

edit on 27-3-2013 by the4thhorseman because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-3-2013 by the4thhorseman because: (no reason given)

As I was originally replying, it wasnt changed. And yeah, the numbers were off. FAR off. You didnt make the information up, you simply copied and pasted the false information that others had spread before you.

The $21 million contract is for part of the retrofitting, not for an order of new units. I dont know what their production and retrofitting process involves, so I am not sure the reasoning for them to be separate. The whole press release is here:
media.navistar.com...

Originally posted by flyswatter

Originally posted by the4thhorseman
reply to post by flyswatter

 

Actually if you read my post again I updated the information on that part.

LISLE, Ill., March 15, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Navistar Defense, LLC received an award to conduct the installation work associated with its January order to upgrade 2,717 International® MaxxPro® Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles with a new vehicle chassis. The $21 million contract from the U.S. Army Contracting Command is just one of Navistar's many reset offerings aimed at revitalizing existing defense assets for future missions.

But it does seem our numbers do not match...

edit on 27-3-2013 by the4thhorseman because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-3-2013 by the4thhorseman because: (no reason given)

The $21 million contract is for part of the retrofitting, not for an order of new units. I dont know what their production and retrofitting process involves, so I am not sure the reasoning for them to be separate. The whole press release is here:
media.navistar.com...

Yes I know that is where I quoted the info from. Plus the total count of MRAPs is 32

Originally posted by the4thhorseman

Originally posted by flyswatter

Originally posted by the4thhorseman
reply to post by flyswatter

 

Actually if you read my post again I updated the information on that part.

LISLE, Ill., March 15, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Navistar Defense, LLC received an award to conduct the installation work associated with its January order to upgrade 2,717 International® MaxxPro® Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles with a new vehicle chassis. The $21 million contract from the U.S. Army Contracting Command is just one of Navistar's many reset offerings aimed at revitalizing existing defense assets for future missions.

But it does seem our numbers do not match...

edit on 27-3-2013 by the4thhorseman because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-3-2013 by the4thhorseman because: (no reason given)

The $21 million contract is for part of the retrofitting, not for an order of new units. I dont know what their production and retrofitting process involves, so I am not sure the reasoning for them to be separate. The whole press release is here:
media.navistar.com...

Yes I know that is where I quoted the info from. Plus the total count of MRAPs is 32

For the DHS-owned MRAPs, I've seen numbers ranging from 16 to 32 being reported as accurate. The DHS itself said 16, but another report said that they had 32 (although this may be because the numbers were combined with those of another agency, also). That does not seem like an unreasonable range for what they might have.