Another military intervention in Africa by .....France?

I thought the European powers got tired of being in the middle, if not cause of people's civil wars across Africa? If peace on the continent is the goal to stop interventions? Strap in everyone ....We'll be at war for generations. What is interesting is how active a leadership France seems to be taking in the lead position for these now?

France has sent soldiers to Central African Republic to secure the airport of the capital Bangui, a diplomatic source said, after rebel forces entered the north of the city.

"A company of troops has been sent to secure the airport. The airport is now secure," said the source on Saturday. "We have asked our citizens to remain at home. For the time being, there is nothing to be worried about. There is no direct threat to our citizens at the moment."

A second diplomatic source said that Paris had requested an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss a
solution to the crisis in the landlocked former French colony at the heart of Africa.

When was the last outside proposed, brokered or forced resolution upon warring parties in Africa which has been successful? I'm completely serious. In thinking briefly, I can't recall one. Odd about that?

The violence is the latest in a series of rebel incursions, clashes and coups that have plagued the landlocked nation in the heart of Africa since its independence from France in 1960.

Pretoria has sent some 400 soldiers to train Bozize's army, joining hundreds of peacekeepers from the Central African regional bloc.

Source

I wonder everyone? Isn't it more logical that South Africa, if they choose to, take involvement here? It's their back yard and THAT makes some sense before even touching the issues of right or wrong within either side. I'm rather surprised at how busy and active Africa is becoming though. It's not surprising that there is local fighting. That has been a state of being in SOME area of that continent (usually several at once) for as long as the Western World as had detailed maps of it's interior. It's how busy it's getting with outside intervention of all kinds?

Well, this is at least one event where I can't see a way the US gets blamed for once. (now that I say that, someone will find one, I'm sure.)

So what say everyone? New week, new fight? It almost seems that to read the news these days.

* I thought France had dire economic issues like everyone else? Not that dire I guess....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Interesting post, thanks.

The French certainly are stomping around a bit arent they, they want to be very careful in Africa. It could turn out very costly for them, both financially and militarily. I wouldnt want to see them get stuck there.

We in the UK will probably support this action so that the French will allow us to use The Charles DeGaulle if newly Paply bolstered Argentina decides to invade The Falklands before we have got Queen Elisabeth, and Prince of Wales through their sea trials.

After going through the period in my geography course that covered the conquest of South America and Africa, I was stunned. I had no idea of the enormous African Kingdoms (No other proper term) which existed right to the day Europe came crashing down on them like a bank vault from a clear sky. It's a tragic, tragic story with only a few high points (The African local tribes did get a couple GOOD victories over on the Europeans..but they came at terrible cost in later retribution).

Personally, I believe that Africa (as most of the world in it's local areas) is for Africans. I don't mean anyone go back and say "Well...you're white..you're great great whomever didn't start here". I mean African to include all those born there or permenant resident at this point. The outside nations and NGO's need to just stay out to my thinking. Exceptions must exist of course, as they always do...but exceptions with almost absurdly narrow limits, IMO.

• Disaster (Immediate and Humanitarian ... Not long term excuse to still be "helping" years later with a near occupation)
  
  
• Regular commerce and Trade (Doesn't require troops. It requires business and airplanes with goods...not weapons)
  
  
• Exceptional Circumstances (where the world, WITHOUT SERIOUS DISSENT FROM ANY, sees the need and agrees it must be)
  

Outside of the above? Governments and Organizations ought to ship whatever locals may benefit from. If there is no reliable shipping? Hey! Now there is a spot the West could help with something! Make a service ..then SHIP the aid or help or whatever. Sans troops.

At this rate, perpetual war isn't just an American thing anymore ... It's starting a trend and becoming a fad.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

At this rate, perpetual war isn't just an American thing anymore ... It's starting a trend and becoming a fad.

We hear about war everyday, we read about war everyday, we watch war via the news everyday.

Conditioning.......much.

Big things are on the horizon, make no mistake about it.

That area (right or wrong) was colonized by the French. French is widely spoken there as a result. I'm guessing there are economic ties with France as well.

Makes sense they'd be the ones to intervene if a security situation arises. Much like Liberia in our case, being settled by freed slaves. Though the freed slaves descendents and the native Africans continue to clash.

France is a spent force. Nothing good is coming from their intervention.

I don't put much worry into this cos they are inept. Once their bodybags count starts to rise they will fark off as usual and leave the mess for others to pick up, like Vietnam.

Maybe Russia or China should start arming those concerned with SAMs or anything that can shoot down a plane or two since proxy wars are good for business.

About time they started into the mix, were getting a little thin around the edges here.

When is Germany going to step up to the plate?

Hey there Wrabbit.The Central African Republic is not really in South Africa's backyard-but the point is that sadly our army is no longer in much of a position to intervene anywhere,it has deteriorated immensely since 1994,under ANC rule.In fact,our country is a fruit ripe for picking by any army of reasonable competence,i would say.The day when we held our own for so many years during the Border War against the Russian-backed Cubans,is gone,and most likely forever.
Besides,i think with the horrific crime rate and slow genocide of the white farmers,our army might have been better employed trying to protect our own citizens.Because with the exception of some very fine and dedicated individuals,our police force is now,since 1994,a tragic joke also.

Originally posted by lnfideI
About time they started into the mix, were getting a little thin around the edges here.

When is Germany going to step up to the plate?

What are you talking about? France has been involved with trying to aid these peoples achieve some peace for a very, very, long time! More than any other nationality, in fact, since they feel a karmic sort of responsibility towards them because they colonized them in the past.

Germany doesn't have any real reason to feel obligated to put in a hand.

reply to post by Raxoxane

I'm really surprised and sorry to hear that. I've seen the news of South Africa's problems but I always considered them a major African Power...even if not outwardly so anymore.

I had no idea it had gotten to where you think outside countries could actually pose a serious threat? That's a bad spot to be in for that neighborhood, isn't it? I appreciate the perspective, as it really adds so much in terms of context to much of what I do see from that region in general news.

The Islamist radicals are moving upon any and all countries which are vulnerable. Central and South Africa, with their unending coup-ridden conflicts,and ill prepared military, are extremely vulnerable. It is expected we will see more and more "action" as you say, there. (though action as in violent conflict doesn't seem so new to them, I think).

Securing the airport so that the very large french population living in that city can leave if need be doesn't seem like such an aggressive act to me, and I don't totally understand the complaint.

But France has been fighting Islamist radicals in Mali (4,000 troops currently). I do not have a firm opinion yet on whether I think this action is morally just, I am too aware that these things can be extremely complicated and not all is evident. I don't feel especially critical of it just yet because I have not been able to find negative sentiment expressed by peoples in those areas- only positive.

Indeed, the intervention is described as legitimate in the strictest sense of international law. Along with UN Security Council resolutions 2056, 2071, and 2085, it is particularly the request issued by Mali’s interim president, Dioncounda Traoré, in which he asked France for military support, that provides the legal basis for Operation Serval. At present, not only is Mali grateful to France, a member of the UN Security Council with the military potential to accomplish a task the Malian army has been unable to handle alone, but it has specifically welcomed the solidarity of its former colonial power. It has allowed the French president to be celebrated by cheering masses in Bamako and Timbuktu –

thinkafricapress.com...

So far the press everywhere describes them as being in need of aid. -And the US has been putting in a bit too.

With France planning to start withdrawing its troops from Mali next month, Western and African officials are increasingly concerned that the African soldiers who will be relied on to continue the campaign against militants linked to Al Qaeda there do not have the training or equipment for the job. To help the French, the United States began flying unarmed surveillance drones over the region last month from a new base in Niger. And the administration has spent more than $550 million over the past four years to help train and equip West African armies to fight militants so that the Pentagon would not have to. But critics contend that the United States seems to have little to show for that effort.

www.nytimes.com...


France has carried out 46 military operations in francophone Africa between 1960 and 2005. Their intervention is not rare.
I guess we could take the stance that they should stay out, on the other hand, the bloodbaths they get into include innocent children, women... attempts at genocide! I think it is kind of unreasonable to expect other countries to turn a blind eye completely.
But especially right now- with Islamic radicals moving over the globe and taking advantage of all the weak points, I don't think we can afford it- what happens elsewhere ultimately concerns us too.

As far as FRances financial troubles- the problems of the PIGS will end up hurting all the Europeans eventually, but France and Germany are the two strongest economies in Europe (why they have largely been taking the responsibility for trying to find solutions).
We haven't felt any of this crisis yet, though I am sure we will eventually.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I don't think we would be under threat from any African country,our army is propably still one of the superior ones,maybe The superior one on This continent-although honestly i really cannot be certain-but we would be in heaps of trouble if the army of most other countries wanted to invade.And as for China..well lets just say its a good thing i love Chinese food

And you know what? That may not be such a bad thing.We have lost so much,so much you cannot believe.This government,the ANC,is destroying this country from the inside far more effectively than an invasion from another nation ever could-its gotten to the point where being governed by the Chinese may be a salvation.At least they will uphold law and order,and that will protect the decent and law-abiding citizens of all races who are still left.In fact,i never thought i would say this,but it may be our only chance at salvaging what we have left.

reply to post by Raxoxane

And i might add that if another nation,say China,had to be in charge of the running of this country-they have enough brain cells to realise that if the government condones the killing off of the agricultural sector-the farmers-you are genociding your ENTIRE nation into famine.Our current government don't seem to have the mental faculties to grasp the simple fact that famine does'nt respect skin colour.

reply to post by Raxoxane


You know, this is the thing that I think some of us americans have trouble grasping at first- not only in terms of your country but others.... we have such a deep conditioned desire for independance, we tend to assume it is the same for everyone.
We often cannot fathom that a person could welcome the protective umbrella of another. That a peoples can be so drained by conflict and suffering that they would even prefer another entity take the control rather than continue like that.

But it's because we have not lived with war on our own territory, we do not know what real suffering is, especially long term. To us, that is having our nearest favorite coffee shop closed for the day.

reply to post by Bluesma

Hi Well i don't think i speak for all South Africans here,propably not even for a handfull.But i am a realistic person.I am a mother.I really do have the best interest of all South Africans at heart,of all races,and i love my country with all my heart and soul,it goes bonemarrow deep.But my heart is breaking because although my country is home to millions of fine,fine individuals-this government is so destructive that i see a dark future for all races if something does not change.

As i said to a member earlier-the only thing wrong with the previous regime was the Apartheid policy.In those day we had a formidable army,an extremely effective police force,worldclass state hospitals,a thriving agricultural sector,adequate schools for All citizens,with a competent curriculum,and law and order.A black woman who was a friend for years told me once that she+her family had a better quality of life under the old regime,matter of fact.

That's why although many South Africans may flame me for this-to restore at least just law and order-which will also draw many farmers back to the agricultural sector,and help get us back to pre-1994 levels of production and prevent untenable food prices and maybe even outright future famine,btw-it seems to me that the only realistic way to save my country would be,being run by the government of another.And i do not say this lightly-it absolutely breaks my heart to say it-but i have to be realistic.We shall never be rid of the ANC unless there is some drastic and dramatic intervention from a superior outside force.

The USA and Canada have done most of the heavy lifting when it comes to taking out the radical Islamic garbage.

France has not been at the spear tip, when it comes to heavy lifting. Nor has Germany.

Coalition deaths in Afghanistan by country

USA: 2,084*
UK: 440
Canada: 158*
France: 88
Germany: 56
Italy: 52
Denmark: 43
Australia: 39
Poland: 39
Spain: 36*
Netherlands: 25
Romania: 20
Georgia: 19
Turkey: 14
New Zealand: 10
Norway: 10
Estonia: 9
Hungary: 7
Sweden: 5
Czech Republic: 5
Latvia: 3
Finland: 2
Jordan: 2
Portugal: 2
South Korea: 2
Albania: 1
Belgium: 1
Lithuania: 1

TOTAL: 3,172

Source

Canada Population - 34,482,779
France Population - 65,436,552
German Population - 81,726,000

So like I said ma'am, when is Germany going to step up to the plate and do some heavy lifting? and its about time the French stepped it up. Good on them.

Were getting thin around the edges.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by lnfideI
About time they started into the mix, were getting a little thin around the edges here.

When is Germany going to step up to the plate?

What are you talking about? France has been involved with trying to aid these peoples achieve some peace for a very, very, long time! More than any other nationality, in fact, since they feel a karmic sort of responsibility towards them because they colonized them in the past.

Germany doesn't have any real reason to feel obligated to put in a hand.

reply to post by lnfideI


I will repeat- what has Germany to do with Central Africa???

France has an intertwined history, culture, and sense of responsibility with this part of Africa. Not Germany.
Perhaps the Dutch too, but not Germany. Not the US.

The sentiment is based in a notion that, once you have colonized a peoples for a long time, then they have become somewhat dependant, so when you leave, you need to keep in mind that some fo their tripping and falling is partly your fault, and that you have a responsibility to come back once in a while and give them a hand as they learn to stand, and to walk, alone.


As far as I know, the french do not feel a similar responsibility and history with Afghanistan (though they have always been a supportive force over there to the US ). I am not really sure why you put that info up here? ... though it is probably good for those who are still running on the Bush propaganda, thinking France has not been an active ally to the US.

Seems you are going way off topic here, but Germany is much more isolationist -like in their values. The french are very social and into helping others, (usually looking to help the underdogs though, which doesn't always make the powerful happy with them...) but Germans are much more prone to wanting everyone to keep their damned problems to themself.

Must you always feel obligated to do what is right?

I don't understand that obligated concept. Forgive me.

When I see a 300lbs woman fall on the street, must I feel obligated to pitch in and do some heavy lifting?

It is my belief that France AND GERMANY have not pulled their weight. So it is nice for ME to see France doing some lifting, when will the GERMANS start pitching in? when they feel obligated?

I am wondering if it is not the reason that France and the Germans are always on the brunt of Coalition jokes?

Your miles may vary.

Originally posted by lnfideI
Must you always feel obligated to do what is right?

"Right" is a subjective and relative term. But sense of obligation and responsibility varies depending upon individual entities.

I don't understand that obligated concept. Forgive me.

You don't need my forgiveness, but I can try to re-word if it wasn't clear. Out of the many coutnries in the world in conflict, the french feel more obligation to some than to others. It's kinda like, if you have three kids raising their hands asking for help, and your time, and energy is limited, you choose the one that you made previous promises to to help, or had some earlier engagement of responsibility with. Does that make it more clear?

When I see a 300lbs woman fall on the street, must I feel obligated to pitch in and do some heavy lifting?

"Must" gets into "should" type of judgements which hold no interest for me- I more interested in "what is" than "what should be".... but I'd say, if I am in a position to aid I would. If I was carrying a baby I would have to put down in the street, and there were others around in a better positon to aid, (like being bigger and stronger than I and without baby in arms) I might not.

But that is me. A french person would most likely answer that differently. And I see no reason to judge what you must do.. if I knew you better I might be able to guess what you would do, based on your personality and values!

It is my belief that France AND GERMANY have not pulled their weight. So it is nice for ME to see France doing some lifting, when will the GERMANS start pitching in? when they feel obligated?

You certainly have the right to your beliefs, but as for me, I haven't seen any evidence that the US has been doing more in central Africa and this conflict than France. From what I have found so far, there input there has been less- but if you have links to information which contradicts that, I welcome them and will change my view on that. They have been mostly doing a lot of training the military there.

I am pretty sure Germany has been doing less than France- from what I can find, they haven't taken any action in central Africa at all in this conflict. But as I said, I don't expect they will because I can't see any reason they would, knowing their hisotry and culture.

]I am wondering if it is not the reason that France and the Germans are always on the brunt of Coalition jokes?

In America, any country other than America is the brunt of jokes- they don't tend to recognize or respect any other nationalities period. Though Germany and France are so very different in their approach to conflict, I have never seen them characterized as being similar? The french are more often characterized as beign the weak little guys trying to set up action while being terribly outnumbered and outpowered; and doomed to failure, while the Germans, heck it is almost the opposite! They don't bother unless they are sure the other guy is ...well, weak, little, outnumbered and less powerful......

-and they, unlike the french, don't mix sentiment, human interdependance and loyalties into such things anyway. So even if they DID have a history with Central Africa, it probably wouldn't motivate them.