The Paradox of Modern Spirituality

reply to post by BlueMule

The OP practiced asceticism for a time and failed to achieve enlightenment. So this thread seems to be about consoling himself and his pride, as many of his threads are. As if to say, "spirituality is paradoxical nonsense anyway, and so it isn't really ME that failed... it's spirituality itself that failed and besides I'm alive and breathing and that's all it really is anyway just look at the words and their history"

This thread is about showing the absurdity of modern spiritualists.

I have never said spirituality has failed, except that we have failed spirituality. You do it disfavour when you pass off your mysticism as somehow fundamental or profound, when they're easily reached by exhaustion or narcotic or sleep. Perhaps live first, sleep later.

What little you know about me shows. If you feel your fallacies help you in your plight against my arguments, by all means, continue. But civil conversation is not impossible.

reply to post by jiggerj



The Now is Spirituality.

One of my favorites:

Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water,
after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water

For me this always propelled me into the Wonders of the NOW moment happening in my life.

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by TiM3LoRd

 

The OP practiced asceticism for a time and failed to achieve enlightenment. So this thread seems to be about consoling himself and his pride, as many of his threads are. As if to say, "spirituality is paradoxical nonsense anyway, and so it isn't really ME that failed... it's spirituality itself that failed and besides I'm alive and breathing and that's all it really is anyway just look at the words and their history"

edit on 23-3-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

For all of your supposed enlightenment I guess it didn't include civility, or learning how to construct your opinions in a way that focus solely on the topic instead of coming across as a pugnacious 13 year old that needs his mouth washed out with soap. What a shame. I will say no more to you until you grow up.

addition

I read:

Spirituality is life.

Then reply: No, spirituality is founded by Jesus, and others.

But: Jesus said of himself, he is the way, truth.. and life.

Originally posted by Angle


But: Jesus said of himself, he is the way, truth.. and life.

So then, the Truth is a person (not an idea) and that person is Jesus.
So then, this Christ is also the way (the tao) and the LIFE (the NOW)

does this mean we find our WAY, our LIFE, and our TRUTH only in him?
or can we find these things within ourselves as he did?

I guess that I'm asking if there are levels of spiritual awareness?
We may start out as fishermen, become disciples, but does it
end there... or can we grow and mature, and what does it look
like to reach full maturity?

Jesus was a leader who said "follow me" but those who follow him
ought to become leaders themselves, right? Otherwise, at some
point, they are failing to follow his example. So then, at what
point does the follower become a leader? And if they do reach
that point, do they then find the WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE
within themselves?

Do you believe in the Divine Holy Spirit that dwells inside every man?
And how to do you propose to worship this God that lives inside of you?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope



Very interesting.... all in all, I feel trapped in modern society and stuck 'acting a certain way' just to conform to norms. I live in the U.S. of course and have lately felt more and more constricted by the days. I thoroughly believe that we are all a part of God's (the Universe) consciousness. Subjectively living a different aspect. Yes, I do believe that we are a soul inside of this 'Gundam' vessel. Not trapped... think of how we drive cars.

It's also hard to dismiss with such natural abilities such as astral projection.

Time for bed!

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

The foundation of spirituality is life, yet its advocates teach us death. A paradox. An irony. A contradiction.

What you are pointing out, is the conundrum of ideas, and
it is indeed a irony and a contradiction, but not a paradox.

I would say that a paradox is the vehicle that truth travels in.

Where you have paradox, there is great truth waiting to be
discovered. Not so a conundrum, it only vexes you and it
can not be resolved. Indeed, every ideology leads one to the
point of conundrum (and insanity) if you take it far enough.
Logic is the defense of the unspiritual, and it will always
fall short of providing nourishment for the soul.

The soul is what animates the body, not the mind.
That tool of logic and reason is useful and necessary,
however, it can not discern that which can only be
spiritually discerned. We call that the "higher-self"
or what J Krishnamurti called "the intelligence of other"
because our true intelligence is spiritual and it comes
from some place other than our logical left-brain.

Conundrums abound, and they can drive us crazy, but when
the Light touches our mind, it does so because of our experience.
Spirituality is an experience, not knowledge. You cannot reduce it
to knowledge; it is always stretching to know, but never knowledge.
It is dynamic, not static. It is an insight, irreduceable into words.
It is beyond theology. You cannot put it into theories, into systems
of thought; that is impossible. And those who try to do it don't know
anything... once they realize this fact, only then can they truly know.

That is the paradox... and the escape from the conundrum.

It is a strange phenomenon: those who know, they never try
to reduce their knowing to knowledge; and those who don't know,
create knowledge, but that is just their invention. All "spiritual"
knowledge is the invention of the mind. Real spiritual "knowing"
happens only when the mind is dropped, when you are in a
state of no-mind. It has nothing to do with renouncing anything.
In fact, the spiritual being will be able to enjoy everything more
intensely, more totally than the materialist.

Real spirituality is having the willingness to going through fire.
Real spirituality is rebellion against all that is rotten, against all
false authority, against all that is being forced on you by others,
against social conditioning and rest of it. Real spirituality is the
greatest rebellion there is. It is risky, it is adventurous, and it
takes courage to live such a dangerous life.

Beware of pseudo-spirituality which is always there at the door.
Beware of pseudo-community, which can be so enticing. If you
remember who you are, it does not matter where you are. You
will cross through the fire and be in absolute bliss. Wherever you
are, if you can be happy there, you have become religious, you
have become spiritual. Spirituality knows no competition,
spirituality knows no greed, spirituality knows no ambition
because spirituality means desirelessness. When we abide
in that peace, we have the joy of NOW... free from the guilt
from the past, or fear of the future.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Very well put together my friend. I understand exactly what your are saying - your eloquent way of writing was quite helpful in that regards.

I'll give you my perspective to add more perspective to this excellent discussion.

You are right to say that many use spirituality as a means to express a need, reason, or way to escape the physical life experience because it is not a desirable experience, or a state of existence measured as pointless, and even place to earn right into a greater after life. Their are many reasons why people turn to spirituality as to achieve some goal.



In truth spirituality, and the process of being spiritual, is the inner work. The discovery, balance, and discipline of the self.

The goal is to combine all aspects or a combination of all the perspectives.

The physical life experience is a confusing finite experience. With twists and turns, highs and lows, conflict and unity, and suffering. Many seek a way to figure it out, escape it, or even insure that they go somewhere greater than this after they're finished and thus turn to spirituality.

The truth is that spirituality resides in understanding the eternal self and the finite experience. The citizen of eternity in a finite physical body. This finite experience does not pale in significance for I say unto all who read this, it is the struggle(s) and misunderstanding(s) which shape, evolve, and teach the inner self. Disappointment/struggles to a noble soul is what cold water is to burning metal; it strengthens, tempers, intensifies, but never destroys it.

Thus, spirituality is not about worrying about some goal or point down the road or in some other location. Instead, spirituality rests in the present moment with the self and its connection to all other things. Understanding that divinity is not "out there" but instead divinity exists within all things - it is not only a part of us but it is us. One will find that with spirituality one does not need proof, tangible evidence, or an empirical measurement which expresses such, but instead the one who truly looks into the self/the soul will understand that they have all the proof they need.

That intuitive proof is faith, like religion, and although religion may seem different, faith in divinity or a divine object is extremely spiritual for the soul itself is based on faith from the trust in intuition that each person contains or is the soul. And yet that faith, that trust, and that belief is what is so powerfully significant for it is a great gift to learn to follow your heart and your intuition by what feels right you.

The key is to not let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to again follow your heart and intuition. The heart, and intuition that comes from it, somehow already knows what you truly want to become because the feeling from the heart and intuition is the expression of the truest version of the self and inner self.


That is my perspective of spirituality in a nutshell. And one who truly understands will realize that "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it is about learning to dance in the rain."

Originally posted by wasaka

It is a strange phenomenon: those who know, they never try
to reduce their knowing to knowledge; and those who don't know,
create knowledge, but that is just their invention.

Have you read The Cloud of Unknowing?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

No it isn't. The foundation of spirituality is the mystical experiences of people like Jesus, Lau Tzu, The Prophet Muhammad, Moses, etc.

The laws of logic are the laws of our everyday consciousness and experience... they have no application to mystical experiences which are beyond everyday consciousness and experience, beyond ideas, beyond words, beyond logic, beyond definitions.

But not beyond experiencing.

That One which is beyond all thought is inconceivable by all thought -Dionysius the Areopagite

That Oneness is on the other side of descriptions and states. Nothing but duality enters speech's playing-field -Rumi

Nonsense. That is the foundation of religion—the repudiation of spirituality, the antithesis of spirituality, denial of spirituality. I mentioned the etymology of the words "spirit" and "spirituality" mean "to breathe". Life is the roots from which the tree of spirituality grows. If you can refute the etymology of spirit, you could refute my arguments.

To be spiritual, one must be alive. How does "to breathe" translate to mystical experiences? Correct; it doesn't—at least not until religion has had its perverse way with the concept, having convinced the religiously motivated and credulous otherwise. One must first be breathing and living and animated before he can have a mystical experience.

Excellent!

I am always amazed that the overwhelming primacy of the material realm within the conscious existence of literally every person who exists or has ever existed is never enough to convince "spiritual people" that it possesses significance beyond its obvious capacity to cripple the psyche with its limitations and the inevitability of its progressive degradation of functionality. Then again, it's not hard to understand why such effort to dismiss the significance of material existence could become a popular option when one considers the mass programming efforts by product and service marketers and cultural thought leaders who've worked hard to convince the modern world that no matter how good it is, it is supposed to be better (and can be, for anyone willing to do A or pay for B ). After a while, it's just easier to dismiss the importance of material existence than it is to have the goal line constantly moved on you.

And then the "spiritualism" marketers and thought leaders move in on you for their percentage of your money and committed devotion.

We all want to win. Some of us do win. Some of us accomplish this by convincing everyone else that we can help them win. The rest of us simply decide that we'll psychologically/intellectually upend the gameboard and trust in another shot at winning once all the pieces are picked up off the floor. For most of us, that new shot is the afterlife, since by the time we've gone so far as to kick the gameboard across the room, we've learned that there's no possible way for us to win on this side of the veil. It's sort of a survival reaction when confronted with an obvious, intractable, and permanent loss.

Then, there are those folks who go ahead and eliminate themselves after seeing no resolution to their urgent need to win.

I don't know that embracing an ill-defined notion of spirituality is the worst reaction that one can have to the crushing realization of being counted among the vast majority of losers as a member of a species that's proven itself to be the most competitive to ever exist on this planet. Wholesale mayhem is worse. Suicide is worse. Grinding, intimate malevolence is worse.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

The OP practiced asceticism for a time and failed to achieve enlightenment. So this thread seems to be about consoling himself and his pride, as many of his threads are. As if to say, "spirituality is paradoxical nonsense anyway, and so it isn't really ME that failed... it's spirituality itself that failed and besides I'm alive and breathing and that's all it really is anyway just look at the words and their history"

This thread is about showing the absurdity of modern spiritualists.

As opposed to what? The reasonable spirituality of the past?

I have never said spirituality has failed, except that we have failed spirituality.

Somehow you got the idea that spirituality is supposed to be reasonable. So it fails to live up to your unreasonable expectations.

But it's you that failed.

And now it seems that your crusade on this forum is about looking down your nose at all those absurd spiritual people so that you can feel better about yourself and your failure.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

The OP practiced asceticism for a time and failed to achieve enlightenment. So this thread seems to be about consoling himself and his pride, as many of his threads are. As if to say, "spirituality is paradoxical nonsense anyway, and so it isn't really ME that failed... it's spirituality itself that failed and besides I'm alive and breathing and that's all it really is anyway just look at the words and their history"

This thread is about showing the absurdity of modern spiritualists.

As opposed to what? The reasonable spirituality of the past?

I have never said spirituality has failed, except that we have failed spirituality.

Somehow you got the idea that spirituality is supposed to be reasonable. So it fails to live up to your unreasonable expectations.

But it's you that failed.

And now it seems that your crusade on this forum is about looking down your nose at spiritual people so that you can feel better about yourself and your failure.

edit on 24-3-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Damn, for someone who's achieved spiritual enlightenment, you're a pretty raw-nerve kind of mystic, aren't you.

"...by their fruits ye shall know them." Who was it that said that?

Your competitive streak is your defining characteristic. You're not going to let this material realm tag you as a loser, are you.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Damn, for someone who's achieved spiritual enlightenment, you're a pretty raw-nerve kind of mystic, aren't you.

"...by their fruits ye shall know them." Who was it that said that?

Raw-nerve? I like that. Jesus could be raw-nerve too. I think of it as tough-love rebuking. I'm frank and straight-up and brutally honest. It's one of the things my wife loves about me.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by NorEaster

Damn, for someone who's achieved spiritual enlightenment, you're a pretty raw-nerve kind of mystic, aren't you.

"...by their fruits ye shall know them." Who was it that said that?

Raw-nerve? I like that. Jesus could be raw-nerve too. I think of it as tough-love rebuking. I'm frank and straight up and brutally honest. It's one of the things my wife loves about me.

edit on 24-3-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Jesus' defining characteristic wasn't his competitiveness or his acerbic rhetoric. There's a real difference between standing up to attacks, and launching attacks.

Oh...and you're no Jesus.

Not that there ever was a guy named Jesus who did any of the stuff in that story, so....

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


OP, I'm not entirely sure we're on the same page here, but have you heard of spiritual bypassing?

I think much of what you term "modern spirituality" is a form of escapism, and I definitely agree this has become more prevalent in recent years.

If you're implying there is no deeper level of reality than the physical, however, I would have to disagree, based off personal experience.

Modern spirituality is the truth from all belief systems that keeps expanding while mass consciousness expands, its truth remains the same for it is truth, remaining constant in ancient truth yet ever changing into the truth of the future. If anything spirituality is growing because humanty is starting to Remember what the truth is...and as we Remember so sprirituality evolves forward to embrace what has always been believed. Spirituality is the breath of life and is constantly evolving while the old dogmatic systems come crumbling down under the Truth of Light.

Spirituality has Not failed humanity in any way, but the dogmatic franchises most certanly have even though they have done much good...and bad

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Would you consider yourself spiritual? What have your spiritual experiences shown you in regard to this matter?

I appreciate the look at the concept of spirituality. I often feel frustrated in discussion with very scientific mind, for whom the word "religious" is applied to include anything spiritual.

For me, being someone who has explored spirituality up to this point in my life, and had an interest very young in it,
I am at the opinion, at this time, that most spiritual concepts, beliefs, and practices are ultimately techniques and methods for managing emotion. It is within these visions and forms and meanings that we project energy in this way or that, upon this object or the other.

I think this has a HUGE creative effect in our lives and in the world in general.

The change in modern times, from collective religious spirituality and the do-it-yourself introspective type of spiritual practice represents an evolution in focus, from collective creation, to individual.

Why is it happening? I don't claim to know. I imagine that in the past, our emotion (energy in motion) was being used more in physical exertion and pursuits. When the body does not have to chop that wood, or carry that water, it turns to burning energy with the brain instead of the muscles. So methods for channeling and mastering that energy inside becomes more necessary. Perhaps this is a result of technological advances?

reply to post by STARTRUTH49


There is no mass consciousness, or you must mean the mass outside of the mass. Mass consciousness, there do exist people who think for their own in this world.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Lesmis,

i have a deep appreciation for the argument you have presented. my father (a practicing mormon) has a phrase which he repeats often which infuriates and saddens me, and captures the heart of your message: "all of the most exciting things that will happen to you, will happen when you are dead." i can hardly believe he can say such a thing with a straight face.

nevertheless, i think your argument might be prone to misinterpretation by those without a keen eye, and so i wish to add some clarity......

...speaking of the physical being, it is not difficult to observe that we appear to be constructed of a nested hierarchy of systems within systems; and that each level of the structure has its own physical body or boundary; and that its own functional dynamics are structurally related to the systems with which it is integrated, both internally and externally. concretely, we can speak of biology in terms of molecular, cellular, organs, organ systems, and organism. so, it is plain to see that all things in the universe, both organic and inorganic, appear to be structured as integrated systems.

these nested levels of systems do not end at the boundary of our own physical person, any more than the stomach or heart is an end unto itself. in other words, just as the stomach is likely unaware of the larger body in which it occupies, it is conceivable that there exists some larger body of which we are a part, and yet unable to properly define.

in fact, it appears that we as individual persons are smack-dab in the middle of a huge system, much much larger than our own self. it is easy for us to identify and understand the dynamics of the systems which are "below" our own. but we get stumped when trying to grasp the systems "higher than" our own, yet undoubtedly exist. higher systems are more than just quaint metaphors.

they are not imaginary.

so, when we speak of denying the "ego", or raising oneself into a "higher dimension", or becoming the "body of christ", we are misappropriating common words to describe a thing for which there exist no words sufficient to describe it. you have been quite vocal about your distaste for the notion of denying the ego. all too often we hear our beloved ATS science nazi speak out against the misuse of the word "dimension" (and "frequency", etc.). and i personally hate the fact that the word "christ" just made an appearance in my own text.

but what is particularly infuriating is the assumption that these things must certainly not exist at all, simply because our descriptions of them fail so mightily.....and worse, that the misappropriation of the language has led to far more people being led down the wrong path, than the right one.


finally, anyone that has spent sufficient time examining the conditions of their own existence will surely come to recognize that they are, in actual fact, a member of an invisible (from their "self" perspective) body. and indeed, that the best use of their own life is toward the progression of this "higher self"...as difficult as that is to define.

if i understand your argument correctly, Lesmis, it is that it is silly to attempt to erase the "lower levels" in an attempt to attain the "higher levels". i agree that it is sad and true that much of the "sacrifice of self" speak of the "enlightened" (religious) crowd becomes an abhorrent attempt at eliminating the body and its affects. true enlightenment must surely embrace what has come before, while simultaneously looking forward?