Depravity Of The Vatican

Catholicism as a religion doesn't claim that a pope cannot be a very, very bad man.

This in no way affects the validity of Catholicism, just as the moral character of a Protestant's pastor in no way affects the validity of their sect of Protestantism.

Originally posted by ParasuvO
reply to post by adjensen

 

Somehow I do not think you are Catholic, but some other denomination of Christian...if I read correctly.

Yes and no. I spent a number of years as a Catholic leaning Protestant, but I converted in 2012 and I am now a Protestant leaning Catholic My religious "story", as it were, is here.

reply to post by Bybyots

Dear Bybyots,

Thank you for writing, please excuse my delay in getting back to you. Sorry that I didn't live up to my standard of adding to the thread, may I have another try?

You are a great guy, but what you posted there is one of the most bizarre apologias for any crusade that I have ever read.

You present the case as though any of the crusades were some kind of controlled application of military force, when, in fact, they were a hardly controlled mob.

Sorry to create that impression. The first three or four Crusades were indeed haphazard, suffering from lacks in the areas of supplies, control, tactics, and strategy. I maintain however, that the purpose of the Crusades was defensive.

Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including A Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople.

Here are some extracts of an article he wrote on the subject:

Many historians had been trying to set the record straight on the Crusades long before Clinton discovered them. They are not revisionists, . . . but mainstream scholars offering the fruit of several decades of very careful, very serious scholarship.

So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already by said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression — an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed's death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt — once the most heavily Christian areas in the world — quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul.

In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam.

One might think that three centuries of Christian defeats would have soured Europeans on the idea of a Crusade. Not at all. In one sense, they had little alternative. Muslim kingdoms were becoming more and more, not less, powerful in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks conquered not only their fellow Muslims, thus farther unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive.

www.catholicculture.org...

And then adding up the victims of the inquisition, bunching them together, and saying that they, in total, amount to no more than had been killed in any war. charles1952? what about the social war of attrition that allowed the inquisition to take place to begin with?

The estimates I've seen have put the number of deaths from the Inquisition at between 800-20,000 over all the centuries it was in existence. I'm not sure what you mean by "social war of attrition," but I'd like to learn.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by ParovStelar

Yes I have noticed and read some of them, I thought I would participate further more. If I offended you, I am deeply sorry.

Don't be sorry to that troll...just ignore him, hes just after stars.

Originally posted by POXUSA

Originally posted by DrunkYogi
Let's make no mistake here, The Vatican is a den of Pedophiles. This is known. You either deny or accept this, denying this is covering up the fact's. If you turn a blind eye you are a massive part of the problem. Turning a blind eye, to me, is giving these monster's your consensus. Most people know what they are!!! There will be no hiding the fact's. Shame on those who turn a blind eye, absolute shame. It's not a matter of people waking up, it's a time of admission, nothing more nothing less. Pretending something isn't there does not make it go away. It will only make it worse. God........I believe in Jesus but not the Vatican. You must see the difference, they are anti-Jesus.......Anti-Christ. Take your Ego and give it a shake, a slap, a mirror.

Your prejudicial rant is just an atheistic anti-Catholic diatribe with no foundation whatsoever. You are making it up and your language is that of an emotionally distraught housewife. There isn't a word of truth to your absurd charges. We Catholics won't even feel sorry for your kind - we feel nothing at all. DEFENDER OF THE FAITH

edit on 23-3-2013 by POXUSA because: DEFENDER OF THE FAITH

I am not an Atheist and im not anti-Catholic. I am pro facts and anti-Vatican(Pedophiles). Emotional yes, if you can't get emotional when thinking about what these beasts do to children then you are an emotional void. "We Catholics wont even feel sorry for you kind" What kind is that? "We Catholics" Is this your elitist attitude? Are you's something special? Have you got something special in mind for the like's of me, maybe burning in hell for eternity? Should i ask the Pope for forgiveness and hand over my son's for redemption. You cant handle the truth, as i said before if your not against the Pedo's your with them. If there is a Judgement day i look forward to you standing before God and putting forward the case for your all of them wonderful Pope's. That would be an interesting conversation. Last post, it's no use preaching to the Blind.

I believe this was asked before, but why is it that some people believe that the Catholic Church is particularly rich in homosexuals looking for teenagers (the majority of the complaints)? Catholic Priests were accused of sexual abuse at the same rate as men in the society at large.

I believe that sexual abuse in the Church is more shameful than other sexual abuse, but it wasn't being alleged more often than abuse outside of the Church.

Yeah I'm 'chocked'

It is pointless to trying to make a point when a valid one gets 1 "me too" and pure ignorant and gratuitous slander with no basis besides his or hers opinion as long as its against the church gets 1000.

Like I said in another thread... I'm not a catholic, or even religious, but this trend, this cool thing when it comes to bashing the church has become really ridiculous. And people are just fashion victims I guess... since its hip, cool and trendy and "all the cool ppl do it" noone really needs to justify their opinion to get 10 people immediately agreeing to the slandering thats being parroted...

Specially when even on the first post, theres so much information thats wrong... which its worrying. Specially when we live in an age where information is available and all you have to do is open a new tab and check for yourselves.

I rest my case on this ... free slander "burn them all" kind of thread since even the most valid arguments some members have made, including me, are deflected or simply steamrolled by another pedophilia capslock headline...

I dont know whos more obsessed with it - the priests you accuse or yourselves.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

This may be off-topic, feel free to report me.

One of the things I hope for on ATS is discussion, reasonable discussion. I only know a few things about very little, and I'm hoping to learn and get my false ideas corrected. It doesn't seem to be happening here. Actually, it doesn't seem to happen very often at all.

But, "Hope springs eternal." Maybe someone here will talk and reason about their opinions. I want to hear those opinions and learn from them.

reply to post by adjensen

The more the merrier,

Originally posted by adjensen
Yawn.

In your lengthy two day career here at ATS, you haven't noticed that there are already about three million anti-Catholic threads? Or did you just feel the need to add another?

So what is the point of replying? If you haven't noticed, there is no other thread that presents this same information, therefore you are simply wrong. Using your logic, we should just have one thread on every single subject. Did you not stop to think that we have here on ATS specific forums for specific topics? You are simply showing your ignorance honestly, and YOUR post is the one wasting space, in that it was not necessary in the least.

OP, while I was aware of most of that information to some degree, it was still a good read, even just as a refresher. And there are always going to be people reading a thread, even if the information has been covered, who are hearing about these things for the first time. With so many people as we have here on ATS, it is a given.

reply to post by ParasuvO


It is important not to confuse the Church with organizations/denominations that claim to be churches.

The Church is led by the Spirit, while the others (Catholics, Protestants...) are led by men.

I want me surm o' that here Nazi loot!

People should read the Vicars of Christ, the darkside of the papacy. If you are still a catholic after reading it then I don't know what to say. All religions use the excuse, it is humans that make the mistake but it is still god's church and so the scam continues.

Originally posted by charles1952
I believe this was asked before, but why is it that some people believe that the Catholic Church is particularly rich in homosexuals looking for teenagers (the majority of the complaints)? Catholic Priests were accused of sexual abuse at the same rate as men in the society at large.

I believe that sexual abuse in the Church is more shameful than other sexual abuse, but it wasn't being alleged more often than abuse outside of the Church.

Yes but the number of accusations against priests does not equal the number or percentage of pedo priests. Many because of their positions of power over their victims, have undoubtedly got away with it. You are also forgetting that these priests are part of a powerful organisation with a powerful heirrarchy. And as has been proven repeatedly, the machinery of that organisation has worked with great effort to keep it's sexual crimes hidden.

So using the entire population and getting a 4% figure is not a fair comparison with an organisation such as The Vatican. More analogous though still imperfect comparisons would be with say, The Armed Forces or The Government. I am confident in guessing that the true number of sexual crimes in either of those organisations far outweighs the numbers of documented allegations.

Additionally, it doesn't matter how many checks and balances an organisation has, or how many different people have power at the top, eventually that organisation will become corrupted, and continue to become more and more corrupted as time goes by. These types can recognise their own and they seek them out. The corruption of organisations and their misuse of power, such as as happened at The Vatican are one of the reasons corporations weren't originally intended to be permanent entity. And the Vatican most definitely behaves like a corporation.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
And what are the positive things they have done?

Really? Catholic hospitals which are usually in the poorest neighborhoods. Catholic orphanages around the world. Catholic schools. Mother Teresa's order that helps the poorest of the poor. (soon to be saint) Rose Hawthorne's order who helps the terminally ill who have Cancer. Father Damiens order who helped(s) the lepers. Missionaries around the world helping with schooling and crops and basic needs. etc etc etc (the list is too long to keep going on here, but you get the idea)

My own daughter wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for a priest in Italy who decided to open an orphanage in Bolivia. His orphanage saved her life, and the lives of MANY other children. Some were adopted. Others lived at the orphanage. But you won't hear about him from the OP .. instead you only hear about some bad pope from 500 years ago.


The author of this thread focus'd on 5 or 6 'bad popes' ... and focused problems that happen with every big organization. (and yes, there are pedophiles who have infiltrated the catholic church have also infiltrated the protestant churches and the American public schools - they have even bigger problems with it than the churches do!). The OP focused on those and ignored that there are 2,000 years of Catholic church history and a whole lot more good than bad in it.

Keep your eyes open and be aware of the bad .. but be just as aware of the good.
See the complete picture and put it into perspective.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You either follow the "Church" or you follow "Christ".. Christs words are usually written in red, not coming out of the mouth of a self proclaimed/imitation representitive of God with assassins and a spy agency.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yes but the OP is about the depravity of The Vatican, not the church as a whole nor the good done by individual members that are true believers.

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I think anybody who believes the 'Heads' of their religions are actual believers in them have not thought it through logically enough. A sufficiently thorough study of human nature, history, our society, and life in general should bring anyone to the conclusion that every major institution on the planet is thoroughly corrupted and the biggest mistake we ever made as a species was living together in large numbers. Secrets foster the conditions for misuse of power. If in small communities you have no secrets, then there is a tendency towards cooperation, better mental and physical health and lower crime.

There is a problem with the Catholic Church. But it seems the hypocrisy is more of a crime than the crime itself to some people.

Yes there is hypocrisy to a large degree. But the real issue isn't isolated to the Catholic Church. It gets picked on because of what it is supposed to stand for. And i agree, it should be picked on. Picked on and torn apart. It needs to start again. And im a Catholic.

There's good and bad in every society/religion/government etc. Those in charge of the Church are not the only people in the world to be doing such disgusting things. Look around you, in the news. They are everywhere. And it unfortunately won't stop.

Forget about being "shocked" because you can't believe some Popes over the years have done such things when they are supposed to be good, God serving individuals. Be disgusted at the crime, not the hypocrisy. That's not going to solve anything.

Well I'm chocked.