Severing Our Lifeline: The End of Electricity and Technology

reply to post by smyleegrl


Its quite possible and most likley probable that society level of technical development is a function of world population size.
Therefore we can write the mathematical expression as Y (SLTD) = World size (F) *x + c

class dismissed.

reply to post by smyleegrl


LOL, you city folk.....

Urbanization. That is you true evil. Sure, technology makes us forget the basics (doesn't make us dumber, just simply changes our knowledgebase to cope with new processes). But urbanization makes us forget how to live free.

When you compare the conversations on ATS, there is a clear line between the city folks and the country folks on most topics. Especially when it comes to things like survival and guns. Us in the country understand that we use our guns to put food on the table. Folks in the city as, "What ever for? Just buy it at the store and instead take guns away from criminals". The problems with that position are obvious, especially in light of this thread.

I would be curious to take this one step further: how many folks here can string a bow? Sharpen a knife (without a fancy knife sharpener)? Cook without a skillet? How many would die from simple diseases gained from wild game that is not prepared properly?

If you can do none of the above, move out to the country. Find at least a small sliver of that human deep inside your city dwelling self.

reply to post by DrumsRfun

What will you do when bullets run out?? 

Not too hard really, and you don't need a weapon at all.

A groundhog can be removed from his burrow using a split hickory limb. Indians in the NE ate woodchuck more than any other meat.
Snares, deadfalls and box traps are all effective.
Turkeys can be trapped in a ditch by adding a cage of limbs above.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I really would miss my skillets.
But I could get along without them.

reply to post by butcherguy

Not too hard really, and you don't need a weapon at all.

I agree with you 100%...the problem with the "survival" forum,is that most need guns and not the knowledge that our past peoples have utilized and they rely on bullets that they can't reproduce unless they stock up with a lifetime of bullets and gunpowder which i will also say...you will not find it in the wild and won't be able to carry in a long term scenario.
Knowledge goes alot further then a bullet.

Lets make the survival forum more real is my solution.
I get really sick of seeing incompetent people acting like they could survive a real shtf scenario.....hell,I do this for real and still wonder how much i know and if i could make it.

Other then military peeps....how many have had to carry a 60lb pack for 50 kms??

Now,pack your guns and bullets and see if you want to carry a lifetime of bullets and gun powder and then answer me.

reply to post by DrumsRfun


Trapping. Fishing. Bow hunting.

Three important skills for survival. If you live around game birds, knowing how to throw a bola might not hurt, either.

reply to post by DrumsRfun


Ok, I got what you mean.

I am with you 100%. Way too much reliance on tech items and the things that support them that WILL run out, in the survival blogs and forums. I tend to read books and learn the important things in them that I can apply. Simple things like the skills to make cordage and what all a harvested animal can supply... other than food.

The tools that one would need to survive in your scenario are the same tools that man has to learn to reuse even in a world where it does not play out.

I work in solar. It's obvious to me that power will not go out for everyone everywhere. Though there are very large geographical areas where the populace relies on the very same infrastructure that is in pretty bad shape. The U.S. Northeast is one of these.

I have looked forward and tried to imagine how things will play out in relation to your subject Smiley, and what I've imagined is not so much what others think. I'm not sure most look at all of the factors playing in when trying to look at the future scenario.

It's not if, but when and how. Humanity will always have solutions to keeping the lights on. This is not the issue. The issue is for whome will it stay on and what will be the cost. Who's lifestyles will have to change and why, and how rapid will the change take place. It's inevitable that we adress our eating and shelter habits in the process, but communication and travel will also provide obstacles.

Over the next fifteen years energy cost will skyrocket. It will become high crime to use it for personal benefit, at least for the common citizens. Rechargeable batteries will become much more prevelant and the power usage will be saved for only the things that cannot be done using free sources. Communities will have to rally around these sources, and when looked at cities in general have already learned to do this in many ways. The population uses far less energy in cities than one of the same numbers does in rural communities. No, cities will not be bad places to live. The rural communities will have just as hard a time adapting to the changes.

Our species has spent the last ten thousand years learning to become extremely energy efficient. It has only been in the last 100 that we have given up these processes for technology, which is now proving to show that it is much less effective than originally thought. Our grandparents lived in a world where not a drop of energy was wasted. In their minds it was a crime to be wasteful. It will be so again.

It is the inevitable step forward for mankind to adapt to your scenario Smiley. Dealing with it will force us to be humble in our relations to each other. It will expose the wastefulness of our current way of life. We will learn to use energy in ways that could not have been imagined in the times of our grandfathers. We will have access to sources that are and will seem like magic to past generations.

You can see in current trends of cooking that people are getting away from the recent ideas that we were raised on. Mothers are not using canned foods in recipes like they did thirty years ago. We are well aware that produce raised in natural ways are much more wholesome. Once technology starts to be used toward these purposes, we will begin to see huge steps in the right direction. The next step will be toward addressing the damage that we have caused. It was a sacrifice that we had to make, in harnessing technology.

Although the old ways were energy efficient, we were bent on staking our claims on the land that our planet provides. Now that we have established our places, the next step is learning to live in a way that is sustainable enough that we can truthfully imagine ourselves living for thousands of years using current methods, and growing as a species all the while.

The current and ongoing energy crisis will force us to acknowledg these things and we will have no choice but to change our ways and learn to live right. In the end we will wonder how it all happened to turn out so right. Was this plan put down for us by the creator, or by a colaborative effort from saucer sporting planet farmers? We will wonder if it was somehow designed 'the process that we went through' and wonder if it was, then who designed it.

I have always had a favorite saying, and I think/hope that one day we can look back and apply it to ourselves...

"F#€Ked up and did it right..."

Great thread.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by mclinking

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Could we survive?

Yeah. Humanity could survive. Culture would go through a period of communitas in which social structures and institutions are torn down. But during periods of communitas and liminality, paranormal phenomenon spike. During such periods the paranormal can no longer be marginalized by social mechanisms and structures and bureaucracy. Countless people would be awakened. We would evolve. Finally.

Then we would learn that there is nothing technology can do for us that our collective psychic ability can't do better.

edit on 22-3-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Humanity could survive, but in rival communities. Bad guys with guns & ammo will hunt good guys and you'lll see fiction becoming reality. Crime would escalate, go sky high, a real survival of the fittest. It will be a reversion to barbarism. This has happened so many times in human history. Our world would go centuries back, almost overnight.

So? I mean you seem to be saying all that as if it contradicts what I said. It doesn't. What you describe is just the beginning stage of major communitas.

edit on 22-3-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

I don't think you know what you mean. An elementary knowledge of history and psychology would help. Perhaps you should have a look at the film "The Road".
In addition, if we do run into a catastrophe scenario, people will migrate Southwards, they always do, and that is going to cause conflict.
In the past, we have seen great civilisations, especially Egypt, one that lasted for thousands of years. Yet corruption and external violence destroyed the Library at Alexandria, knocked humanity back hundreds of years. Then the world at that time entered a Dark Age. In fact, it is hard to believe that as recent as 1800, most people in the Western world couldn't even read or write.
You haven't thought this one out, have you!

You are very on top of things, great job. There is research that suggests our dependence on technology, especially in younger generations, is also affecting the ability to socialize in person.

This thread gives a clue to the topic here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And those holes in the stone and grooves create a kind of friction device with water, there is something wired as well. It implies the friction heater and electrical converter as well.

I apologize for linking my thread here, its got alot of these videos, related to this and its subsequently slow to load, but this would be very useful along with aquaponics, all over the world, north to south, east to west, of course relating to that 120000 ice age cycle that doesnt necessarily mean extreme conditions.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by DrumsRfun


Just to answer your question, I have carried 100 lb pack for over 50 miles. I lived out of that backpack for over a year. It is possible, and there are people capable of it. In all fairness, it has been several years, but I also have a very large dog capable of taking on some of that load. I can also start a fire without a match, and so can my son.
The skills are there in far more people than we would realize.

You raise very valid points. People are very capable of being able to survive without the supplies that we seem to see as necessities. Knowledge is also first and foremost. Without fire, water and unspoiled food it will be next to impossible to survive a major long term calamity. However, learning to can the food in your freezer, or how to start a fire without matches, and how to find water can save your life and that of your family.

That being said, with 2 small children to worry about as well, it makes sense to have on hand some supplies that will make a family through a first portion of a disaster and lay low (if possible). Tools are priceless, basic, non electric tools will provide one with the means of supplying needs for longer.

Smylee, it is a very real scenario to lose power. Make a game of it. Turn off your breaker for a day. Do it on a weekend when the weather will be decent, and nobody has to work or go to school. Make a food plan so you don't waste anything.Treat it like a campout in the house, and your family may be more receptive to the exercise. Living a full day or more without our modern lifestyle begins to show you what you need to thrive.
Personally, I can't wait until the snow is gone here and we can get back out into the woods. One of my survival kits is really my summer go box. We go deep enough in the woods though that there is no cell reception, so I am capable of spending 3 days waiting for help, or most likely hiking home with kids if something happened. My husband also knows our general location, and he's been known to drive out to meet us if I am not in cell range when he gets off work, so I know that I am covered, but you never know what might happen anywhere.

A great way to learn and practice skills is to make it fun, throw a canning party with a bunch of friends and a couple of bushels of goodies from the farmers market. Go on hikes with friends and family. get your son a firestarter and let him practice with it, under adult supervision, they have a blast!
Everyone has to come to these realizations on their own and practice them in their way to actually be comfortable. If you cover your basic needs of water, food and shelter, than you are major steps in the right direction.

I think like this a LOT. I could have easily written the same stuff you just wrote about. I don't think it's strange at all. What I do think is strange is that so many people don't believe it's even possible for us to lose our technology and power.

I have said to my kids and husband many times to do activities that are non electric involved. They say stuff like they'll just play their video games or watch t.v. I say what if we didn't have any of that? They say they'd deal with it then. My one son who is looking at land and houses says he won't have to because he's gonna have a generator that is solar and wind powered. I like the way he's thinking there, but I wish he would think about living without it too. I think we need to try to get along without it now. When we went through the big flood in 2011, we were without electric and gas at first, then electric was back on but not gas. I realized a few of the things needed to deal with that again.

Have you seen the t.v. series, Revolution? I liked it. And it makes you see how the society reformed after a big (unnamed) event that knocked out all power for good. It sounds like what you said about maybe TPTB choosing that option to depopulate and control the remaining population better.

Good thread topic.

Yaaaayyy I just saw that the new season starts the 25th! Now I'm psyched!

reply to post by CranialSponge

here would easily be hundreds of thousands of deaths within the first year from people killing each other over the last can of raviolis in a looted grocery store. Without a doubt, the worst place to be if all hell broke loose is the cities.

We're good for six months food in chez Antigod. It bugs me that most of the people I know don't keep more than a week tops of extra food stores. If you have dried stuff (pasta, rice, oats) and tinned it keeps for ages, and all you need to do is an inventory twice a year to use up stuff before it's out of date, and it won't cost you extra.

I went hungry as a child, not something I'd want my kids to experience.

Got to agree about the cities. No-one seems to keep emergency food or fuel supplies in any quantities in the cities in case of transportation crises. Shameful

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

I would be curious to take this one step further: how many folks here can string a bow? Sharpen a knife (without a fancy knife sharpener)? Cook without a skillet? How many would die from simple diseases gained from wild game that is not prepared properly?

You are assuming a complete 'back to hunter gathering' scenario here. Back to farming is way more likely. Hunter gatherer population density at it's maximum is about 1/1000th of a modern civilization. You'd have a thousand people chasing each rabbit. The 'back to wild survival' scenario would only be viable if most of the population had died of from some kind of disease. Also viable in a zombie apocalypse

Grimly, a permanent failure of the power grid could lead to a 'bomb all the major cities' scenario to reduce the population to the point of sustainability. Otherwise starving people would pour out of the cities and totally destroy the local countryside, causing the local farmers to starve to death as well as they trashed the land and ate the seed corn. Once the farmers die, next years crops won't get planted and even more people will die. Solution, remove unproductive populace before they can do any damage. Callous but pragmatic.

reply to post by Antigod


I work at a smallish grocery store, even though it's part of a chain. We see a lot of regulars and so you see what they get and how often. I am amazed at how many people shop there most every day and constantly buy just a few things for dinner each night, or breakfast the next day. Plus when a storm is forcasted of course people come stock up on so much freakin food. I keep thinking, man, don't you even keep any food in your house? They would be the ones that would come after others who thought enough ahead to be prepared for anything.

This isn't meant to insult anyone in this thread, I believe you when you say you could survive. Good for you.

But I think it will be a lot worse than we realize.

I've asked my husband what we would do if such a scenario came to pass. We have a couple weeks worth of food and water set aside, but we live in suburbia. Not the best environment for hunting for food, but far worse would be the number of people nearby.

My husband says he would immediately take us to the mountains, where he insists he could provide for us. Now, he's an avid outdoorsman, goes camping all the time. He's also an Eagle Scout. In his mind, this would be enough.

I say.....well, I don't think it would be as easy as he suggests.

I have a feeling there's a lot of weekend warriors who might be in the same boat.

reply to post by smyleegrl


What my point is, that we must not let that be teh circumstances. There are many hundreds, thousands of garages in cities filled with tools yet no one helps each other. That has to stop.

The problem is listed, and if certain things happen, it could be very bad for people.

But people should be helping one another. In other words, this is the very test of earth, the very issue where we can have hell and division or turn it around and create eden.

Never said this was easy.

This is the test guys: Family or Divided! Love all especially the little guys, old people, handicapped, kids and vulnerable.

reply to post by Antigod


I live as "in the country" as it gets short of the middle of Wyoming.

The hard hit areas will be coastal, primarily. Desert areas (like mine) may suffer as well.

Folks from the city will not come pouring out. Some will, a majority I don't believe would. By the time they realized it was a matter of survival it would be too late.

As evidence of this belief, look at Katrina. Folks refuse to leave their homes when faced with certain death.

The smart ones will diversify their diets and lose their "yuk" reflex to things like bugs. The smartest ones will know what plant items are edible.

And the morons will poison themselves with bad berries and poorly prepared meats.

The other "wildcard" that I think needs consideration is how many folks are medically stable enough to make it more than a week or two. Think of all those diabetics, heart patients, asthmatics, those prone to staph infections on their skin....not to mention those who have been made dependant on various pharmaceuticals to get through the day.

reply to post by smyleegrl


We have always and will remain to be tied to our communities. It's necessary to our survival. If all of the smart guys run off into the woods, the rest will not be able to hold down the fort until their return. Everyone will lose.

We need to reattach ourselves to our neighbors now, running away is not the answer. Those who say they can survive in the wilderness by their own means are fooling themselves, and the ones living in sustainable communities in these wild places are hesitant to welcome outsiders already, they will be even harder to move into in your scenario.

They key is in looking for places that will become oasises. Moving to them now, when it is possible, and learning to build sustainable communities there. There are plenty of places available on every continent that have resource rich environments. Some of these places have established ecosystems that have withstood the test of time, and will remain to be so throughout hard times. Become aware of these places even if you don't have the means to go there now. One of these places that comes to mind is the Sonoran desert in Southwest America. You can see that the flora and fauna has existed there for millions of years withstanding the hardships of nature and time.