Scottish independence: Referendum to be held on 18 September, 2014

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Whilst I respect, and largely agree with your suspicion and mistrust of Westminster, (Scots are by no means unique in their dislike of the London centric nature of UK politics), but do you honestly think Salmond and his cronies are any more trustworthy?

reply to post by Freeborn

I trust no politician but i would rather be schat on by my own people than someone who has never experienced want or need....

reply to post by Soloprotocol

So, you don't want to get into a real discussion about the economics of Scotland leaving the union then?
I presented arguments which I feel show clearly that Scotland is currently subsidised by English taxes:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
...if you wish to ignore that then fair enough, but my intentions are from someone who loves this island being one nation even if I'm in an area which is funding the other parts of it who want to break away.
Good luck to you all, perhaps it will be easier for me in the pub when the whinging Scots I know are no longer able to blame us in England when their independent nation is struggling to fund it's public services.

...I won't be smug though, I'll just feel sorry for the ordinary people who have to deal with the economic situation when it happens.

reply to post by grainofsand

Whinging Scots......Thanks for laying your cards on the table.....more reason for me and my like to get rid of Little England....your Empire is Finished.. Soar Alba


PS...i wont feel sorry for your lot when you have 300 nukes to store and then become Russia and China's next to DO list

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
reply to post by grainofsand

 

Whinging Scots......Thanks for laying your cards on the table.....more reason for me and my like to get rid of Little England....your Empire is Finished.. Soar Alba

Soar Alba?! oh back at you with Cymru am byth, I'm Welsh and live in England with the knowledge that my taxes fund better services on the back of English taxpayers for my family in Wales.
Get over it, and your limited understanding of a Celtic language does not make your argument any stronger, I have a GCSE in Welsh. Doesn't mean my political argument is any stronger.

reply to post by grainofsand


limited understanding of a Celtic language.....do i know you, do you know me....what would you know of my grasp of the Celtic language..I'm half Irish By the way... Pog Mo Thoin

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
reply to post by grainofsand

 

limited understanding of a Celtic language.....do i know you, do you know me....what would you know of my grasp of the Celtic language..I'm half Irish By the way... Pog Mo Thoin

That's cool fella, but there is no single Celtic language if you are not already aware, and don't pull the Celtic card out in an English speaking forum as I can converse in Cymraeg if need be.
Lets stick to English yeah, and the economic issues I mentioned here: www.abovetopsecret.com... Which no-one has put to bed yet.

reply to post by Knobby


Alex Salmond and his lap dog Gnasher also love immigration and if the SNP get their way Scotland will also be flooded with Romanians all looking for those free prescriptions and leftist leaning education!

I'm very happy for Scotland. I hope they secede from the UK. Maybe the British could somehow tow the Falkland Islands they took from Argentina up to England and put it where Scotland used to be.

Wow, a lot of attitude flying around....

I knew before I read through this thread that there was gonna be some tension, but I'm surprised most of the negativity is coming from the English. There's been a load of constructive engaging posts, but I'm ashamed by my fellow Brits for how low they've sank in this 'discussion'.

I personally have always wanted independence. There are very few Scots who are proud to be British, it's always been that way; even before Brave heart came out at the cinema. I think we'll be fine, eventually. I am glad about a few things though:

- we won't be joining the EU as the euro parliament would not allow it
- the SNP doesn't necessarily have to lead us post-independence
- all the new oil fields being discovered, that are not owned by orknwey/Shetland

I think a lot of this apparent anger from the English is coming across as jealousy. We're going to be independant , we're going to do OK, and this seems to be a real problem for the English ego. I'm not sure why.

We certainly live in interesting times and if the polls are anything to go by we should definitely see independence.

'Mon the Scots :-)
Peace

Scottish independence? I doubt it. The English would never let that happen, not after it took them so long to domesticate them. I doubt at this point the Scottish even want independence... it would be like a dog that's lived in a house 15 years running away.

Sad, really. But such is the fate of the once strong minded Scottish and I'm sure every former King of Scotland is rolling in his grave. But, in the end, the English won.

I've read every post in the thread, and I'm a little disappointed (but not surprised) at the tone of many of them.

It's not about mud slinging. It's not about "we're better - you're worse". It's not about slagging off individual politicians. It's not about romantic historical notions of what things were once like. It's not about how the union came about in the first place. It's not about what state we'd all be in had the union not taken place. It's not about who wanted the union to happen.

It's about a referendum.
A choice.
A chance for the people of Scotland to decide for themselves, whether it is in their own best interests to remain as part of the union of the United Kingdom, or whether it would be better for them to become a separate, independent nation.
There are conflicting opinions, as there are conflicting facts and figures which can be used to back up those opinions.
The main reason that the figures don't match up is that the UK government stats and Barnett formula do not include North Sea Oil revenues and taxes raised on sales of Scotch Whisky as part of the Scottish figures, and the Nationalist sourced stats do.

For the man in the street to make an informed decision, he's going to have to do a lot of digging to sort out what he/she believes are the real figures. But more than that, they are going to have to take a leap in the dark. Because NO ONE knows what it would really be like for Scotland to be totally independent. There are far too many variables for anyone to accurately predict exactly what it would be like.

I try to look at the facts and figures, and try to sort out the wheat from the chaff, but it does get confusing when so many contradictions appear, so I try to simplify the whole thing.

I think to myself, Why would independence work? and Why would it fail? for the people of Scotland.

Scotland has a population of over 5 million people (quite sparsely populated for a country that is about twice the size of the Netherlands).
It has plentiful supplies of many natural resources.
It has excellent, fertile, diverse and productive lands, with strong agriculture and (potentially) bountiful fisheries.
It has an excellent and abundant supply of clean, fresh water.
It has a very strong energy sector, including oil, gas, hydro, wind and wave power. Not to mention being a world leader in research and technology in those areas and more.
It has a rich heritage and culture, with a strong sense of national identity.
It has a world class export in the shape of Scotch Whisky. (Please note - No "e" in Scotch Whisky!)
It has a very strong tourism sector, and is considered by many to be one of the most scenic and picturesque countries in the world.
It has a talented, hardy, tenacious and adaptable population.

I believe that list compares very well to many other successfully independent nations, and I believe that the details would inevitably be sorted out in time.

GTD

Originally posted by Gordi The Drummer
The main reason that the figures don't match up is that the UK government stats and Barnett formula do not include North Sea Oil revenues and taxes raised on sales of Scotch Whisky as part of the Scottish figures, and the Nationalist sourced stats do.

I posted some information here:www.abovetopsecret.com... and the issue of oil revenue has been addressed nicely, along with the dubious Barnett formula. Oil revenue has not covered the cost of welfare and public services in Scotland as far as the Scotland office's own research has established.

If you or anyone else wish to provide links to Scottish government research and stat's which show that the ones I provided are wrong then please do feel free to share them here to back up your assertions.
I am more than happy to be proven wrong, my sentiments are not an attack on Scotland, just an honest and researched opinion that the country currently relies on English taxes to fund it's public services.
I was hoping that the posters who have smugly proclaimed their free prescriptions and higher education would have provided some evidence to support their claims that Scotland is self supporting, I wonder why no-one has done so yet.
As I said, I am happy to be enlightened here, but unsupported claims with no links to back them up remain as nothing more than emotional opinion.

It's time to cut off our bumbling northern children from their allowance and let them fend for ourselves. It's just hilarious they think it'd be good for them too. Not having to pay for Scottish universities and their drastic healthcare expenses (Some of the highest obesity, smoking, teen pregnancy and drug addiction rates in the 1st world) will certainly put more £££ into Westminster which can only be good for the true British.

I propose rebuilding Hadrians wall and lining it with armed guards with a kill on sight order. The repungent social collapse which will inevitably happen when the scotsman is left to his own devices will send a tide of refugees washing through the north otherwise and there's no way we can let that happen lest they infect us with their blight.

Oh, and as for the Scots who think they will get any of the North Sea oil, just remember who owns the Royal Navy and Royal Airforce. Kthx.

This thread is just a sneak preview of what will happen if Scotland
becomes independent. The attitudes on both sides are repugnant,full of Nationalism
and underlying hate, which will only multiply if Scotland breaks away.

(Have you not seen enough civil war and unrest )Not here i hear you say?
Are you sure about that!

No one has convinced me yet that any good will come of this separation.

Fairly sure the way forward is to change the political system for all in the UK.

Independence for Scotland is the road to ruin, You cannot base an economy on oil, especially oil
that is in decline.
Central Scotland will be decimated even more than it is now, when the Clyde Submarine Base closes,
Thousands of Jobs, thousands of support jobs and thousands of business that depend on the money in the
local community.
Alex Salmond Is a proven LIAR, he pedals hate (poorly disguised) he will pedal Scotland into
into an economic and social hell. Please don't vote for Independence.

Originally posted by sajuek
It's time to cut off our bumbling northern children from their allowance and let them fend for ourselves. It's just hilarious they think it'd be good for them too. Not having to pay for Scottish universities and their drastic healthcare expenses (Some of the highest obesity, smoking, teen pregnancy and drug addiction rates in the 1st world) will certainly put more £££ into Westminster which can only be good for the true British.

I propose rebuilding Hadrians wall and lining it with armed guards with a kill on sight order. The repungent social collapse which will inevitably happen when the scotsman is left to his own devices will send a tide of refugees washing through the north otherwise and there's no way we can let that happen lest they infect us with their blight.

Oh, and as for the Scots who think they will get any of the North Sea oil, just remember who owns the Royal Navy and Royal Airforce. Kthx.

Hahahahahaha, Tell me, who does own the royal Navy and the royal air force....England??? you forget, Pound for Pound for a small nation of just over 5 million people, the SAS has and always have had 30+% of Scots in it's Ranks.....why is that...do you seriously think we cant handle ourselves up here....
Just like the Romans, you can build your wall once again...if it help you sleep at night...
By the way....on the question of who's oil is it..as long as it's on our patch, it's ours...

We Really should have broke free 60 years ago, instead we let London steal more from us....Water, Water..get your lovely fresh drinking water...
We will be fine, just fine..Christ the Benefit bill for London alone is twice what the whole of Scotlands is

And another thing...UK riots..remember them from 2011...not one riot over the border....who needs domesticated..??

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Shut up with the chest beating, do you know how that makes you sound.
Do you think that making out we are a "Hard Man" nation does us any good?
Speaking like makes you sound like a teenager , I hope you are.

Being tough and aggressive does not earn any respect ANYWHERE.

You're embarrassing me.

reply to post by sajuek


I think that ( even though you are trolling) you make some good points.

You are referring to the status quo, an independent Scotland would have to be a totally different landscape. Different priorities for a different people. No more failed projects for the NHS, IT, Military. No more PFI, which will cost 6 times the amount that it originally cost. Instead of Boris Island, we would pay for a second runway at Edinburgh. We would have many more priorities that the rest of the UK doesn't.

An end to the subsidy junky culture is a must, education is key to this. No doubt tough choices would have to get made ( and the free prescriptions will not last forever...aw, fiddlesticks). The one hit I wouldn't like to take is free education.

There are much more issues other than prescriptions, Barnett and oil to consider. Other countries manage fine without oil revenue, so it doesn't cover our health and welfare bills, what other countries also totally rely on this? Some of the OPEC nations, perhaps? I don't know, but there are other nations that make do without.

I may be a bit lighter in the pocket, but it would be worth it. Money is not my God.

...although £100mil in the Euro would no go amiss.

reply to post by rigel4


if you want to remain under London's Thumb then bugger off over the border....we will have our independence.... In the Immortal words of Bono..with or without you...

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
reply to post by rigel4

 

if you want to remain under London's Thumb then bugger off over the border....we will have our independence In the Immortal words of Bono..with or without you...

I have lived over the border for a long time and only recently comeback! You on the other hand
most likely have never been anywhere, and suffer from a narrow and ignorant mind.


EDIT: OMG This is you. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please find a rock to crawl under gtfo