The collapse of the civil society and family = Economic Collapse, page 1

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Topic started on 21-3-2013 @ 11:40 AM by camaro68ss

The civil society is a citizenry of non-governmental citizens made up of the privet sector, the family, and of volunteers to create a better community for one’s self and community. The civil societies foundation is built on the family unit, values, moral compass, and faith. This equates to a more informed and higher educated society.

With these building blocks the civil society creates “social capital”, shared values, and trust. This “social capital” is then transferred in the political arena creating “trustworthy” politicians and politicians that are held more accountable to their politically aware and better educated constituents. These politically aware and better educated people tend to cast smarter votes for the improvement of their communities and nation.

The collapse of the civil society, and I would argue in today’s day, is equal to the collapse of an economy and the nation. They both fall together.

You look back in history and its quite amazing how both the civil society and economy both collapse at once. The collapse of the the family unit, values, moral compass, and faith directly result in, not in any order, lower productivity, higher dependency, a decrease in educated citizenry, and an increase in corruption, creates the conditions of an economic collapse.

Once the Civil society is eroded, the state becomes father and mother of the people. As more and more civil communities collapse, the state grows larger with more people dependent on it. The educated community becomes “dumbed down”, less informed and easily manipulated. They cast ill-informed votes and vote in politicians that are not accountable. Corruption runs rampant as government grows by leaps and bounds until it becomes so large and filled with corruption, the people no longer have a say.

A corrupt politician is easily bribed by large corporations with insider knowledge that will line the pockets of those politicians. The politicians then cast votes for tax breaks, corporate welfare, and loopholes creating mega corporations that become “to big to fail”. Greed and hungry for power, these too big to fail companies place bets on the market, lose big and foots the bill to the people with the help of the politicians. By this point The people influenced by the state outnumber those of the civil society. Democracy dies and politicians become lifelong terms voted in by the people of the state. The cycle feed on its self until one day it all collapse when there are no more productive people left to foot the bill too.

Once the fall is complete, society restarts and either falls into dictatorship

or civil society is reborn and the cycle starts all over.

It’s happened a dozen times in human history and it will happen again in the near future. I’m afraid it’s too late for us as a country.

edit on 21-3-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:14 PM by Openeye

reply to post by camaro68ss

Jesus Christ...

So what pray tell is a civil society?

Because when this country was founded it was not so civil, it was not a peaceful place, it was not a just place, it was not a moral place. It was a patriarchal slaver society, not a society that embraced individual freedom.

The civil societies foundation is built on the family unit,

This family unit is irrelevant to a functional society, at least in the way that you are presenting it.

values

Subjective.

moral compass

Subjective.

and faith.

BS.

The collapse of the the family unit, values, moral compass, and faith directly result in, not in any order, lower productivity, higher dependency, a decrease in educated citizenry,

What the hell are you talking about?

We have the highest productivity rates of all time, and the worlds citizens are more educated then at any other point in history.

Sure corruption exists, because greed exists. This has not changed over the years because it is part of human nature.

The "state" has never truly been the problem, it is the hunger for power which has been the problem, and even if the state did not exist there would be those who would seek to oppress and subjugate people. I would argue that then it would be worse, because then there would be no repercussions, no accountability, and no oversight.

Your "civil society" never existed, it only existed in the minds of the Puritans when they were burning witches and condemning homosexuals.

We live in the most peaceful and civil time in history.

edit on 21-3-2013 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:18 PM by camaro68ss

reply to post by Openeye

This thread has nothing to do with the founding of this country. Its about philosophy.

haha, good joke, most peaceful time in history?

Where am i calling people to burn? i say faith twice in OP and you turn it into a faith based thread? I was debating if i sould have put that in there or not.

How is moral compass subjective? do you even know what moral compass is? you would disagree if we had more moral compass this world would be a better place?

citizens are more educated then at any other point in history? yes a select few are but not the country as a whole.

edit on 21-3-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:28 PM by Lazarus Short

reply to post by camaro68ss

You, know, this always happens. You post something with a mention of positive moral or ethical values, and the scoffers/skeptics jump all over you, usually beginning with post #2. Grow a thick skin, and refuse debate. Only answer the sincere, intelligent posters.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:29 PM by Bluesma

From what I understand, you are refering to the culture of a society?

When the USA was founded, there was still enough culture still conditioned into the people to create an base of shared views, values and morals- they were comign from Christian Europe- even if individualism was the official goal of the new society.

It slowly evolved to manifest that goal, individualism reigns and no more shared culture keeps the society together. and they unravel into the famous Culture Wars.

Shared culture is beneficial to a society, and even the individual, as we are finding out now.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:35 PM by Openeye

reply to post by camaro68ss

This thread has nothing to do with the founding of this country.

The the second to last picture in your thread suggests that the US at its inception was a civil society, which I disagree with.

Its about philosophy.

Your philosophy might as well have come out of a children coloring book, why don't you go into a bit more detail.

haha, good joke, most peaceful time in history?

It is.

Murder rates are down, civilian casualties in combat are down, number of rapes down, number of assaults down all across the board.

Just Google it, there is a large amount of research on the web to support my "assertion".

Where am i calling people to burn?

You didn't and I never said you did. But your philosophy of civility (or at least in the way you have described it) was shared by the Puritans.

i say faith twice in OP and you turn it into a faith based thread?

Because you brought faith up, and I believe that it is completely irrelevant to the subject of a civil society.

I was debating if i sould have put that in there or not.

You shouldn't have

How is moral compass subjective? do you even know what moral compass is? you would disagree if we had more moral compass this world would be a better place?

Yes morals are subjective. Most Christian believes that homosexuality is immoral, Islamic radicals believe Jihad is moral, I could go on and on. Do get my point?

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:37 PM by Openeye

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Grow a thick skin, and refuse debate

Because God forbid we have rational dialogue.

Hell because that has nothing to do with a civil society.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:39 PM by camaro68ss

reply to post by Openeye

Ok, so what is your reason for the future down fall of this country?

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 12:53 PM by Openeye

reply to post by camaro68ss

Well short of some horrible war I do not see the downfall of society as a imminent threat.

I can speculate on possible social and political changes.

It is possible that in the next 50 to 100 years that there will be no government at all, or at least not in any conventional means. I can imagine a sort of corporate council which dictates all forms of policy, a type of Ayn Rand utopia that would make Darwin proud.

I can also imagine nothing really changing at all and the country remain virtually unchanged in the next 50 years. I could see logical progressive tax rates come back, better environmental standards, and fiscal responsibility being more of the norm within government. I could see a return to more conservative foreign policy strategies (non interventionism), and more libertarian social standards being accepted.

I prefer the second of my two theories, as I believe it a more realistic and optimistic future.

edit on 21-3-2013 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:07 PM by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by camaro68ss

Well short of some horrible war I do not see the downfall of society as a imminent threat.

I can speculate on possible social and political changes.

It is possible that in the next 50 to 100 years that there will be no government at all, or at least not in any conventional means. I can imagine a sort of corporate council which dictates all forms of trade, a type of Ayn Rand utopia that would make Darwin proud.

I can also imagine nothing really changing at all and the country remain virtually unchanged in the next 50 years. I could see logical progressive tax rates come back, better environmental standards, and fiscal responsibility being more of the norm within government. I could see a return to more conservative foreign policy strategies (non interventionism), and more libertarian social standards being accepted.

I prefer the second of my two theories, as I believe it a more realistic and optimistic future.

This tells me you dont understand the current economic conditions of the world and that you live in a bubble based on your posts.

We are at the edge of a global economic collapse. one way or another, this world will be very different 1-7 years from now. All i see is hardship and despair for americans.

edit on 21-3-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:15 PM by rickymouse

You are right, Civility in society often collapses with the economy and vise versa. S&F. We can keep society from collapsing on a community basis if the community isn't too tied up in the structure of the whole society that is collapsing. There will be some that have lost their way of life and will go sort of berserk, trying to maintain their past social class. These people will be a problem.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:23 PM by camaro68ss

Originally posted by rickymouse
You are right, Civility in society often collapses with the economy and vise versa. S&F. We can keep society from collapsing on a community basis if the community isn't too tied up in the structure of the whole society that is collapsing. There will be some that have lost their way of life and will go sort of berserk, trying to maintain their past social class. These people will be a problem.

Thats how i see things playing out after the crunch. small communitys banning togeather to weather the storm. Those communitys by defalt will be the one that live by the civil society code. because of what they live through, they will pass on there knowlage to there kids and the civil society will grow as a whole, one based on personal responsiblity, moral compass, family and faith.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:28 PM by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by Lazarus Short

Grow a thick skin, and refuse debate

Because God forbid we have rational dialogue.

Hell because that has nothing to do with a civil society.

Rational dialogue? So far, you've mostly just characterized the OP's position as BS, without rational support. Please scrape together an ARGUMENT. Then we can have a dialogue...

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:28 PM by Openeye

reply to post by camaro68ss

Are you an economics expert? Is your profession in economics?

I'm no economics expert, but from what I can gather we are in much better shape economically than we were in the early 20th century.

I know for sure that there has been an improvement in the tech industry, as all my friends who were unemployed (as well as myself) are now employed full time making excellent salaries and the companies we work for are making record profits.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:34 PM by Openeye

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Rational dialogue? So far, you've mostly just characterized the OP's position as BS, without rational support. Please scrape together an ARGUMENT. Then we can have a dialogue...

Because his position is simply an opinion which is being presented as a truism, it is not supported by anything and that is what I was attempting to point out.

The only thing I called BS was that faith played a part in a civil society (which I honestly assumed meant religious faith, if that was incorrect then I apologize) because it doesn't. History shows us that more secular tolerant societies have always been more successful than ones who legislate their religious dogma.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:36 PM by KoolerKing

reply to post by Openeye

Do you know what 17 trillion dollars is really? Our economy will crash. The only question is when. We cant tax or finance or cut spending our way out it. Do some research.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 01:57 PM by Openeye

reply to post by KoolerKing

I will ask you the same thing I asked to camaro.

Are you an economics expert?

If you are please detail the exact causes of the crash. And exactly how it would be the end of modern society.

I ask because when it comes to economics matters I am very ignorant of how it all works and would be most interested in hearing you explanation.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 02:14 PM by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by Lazarus Short

Rational dialogue? So far, you've mostly just characterized the OP's position as BS, without rational support. Please scrape together an ARGUMENT. Then we can have a dialogue...

Because his position is simply an opinion which is being presented as a truism, it is not supported by anything and that is what I was attempting to point out.

The only thing I called BS was that faith played a part in a civil society (which I honestly assumed meant religious faith, if that was incorrect then I apologize) because it doesn't. History shows us that more secular tolerant societies have always been more successful than ones who legislate their religious dogma.

I'm sorry - you are correct up to a point. What the OP said resonated with me, because of other things I had read, and your response did not. Posts on forums such as this tend to the subjective because we posters lack the time and resources to write up objective posts with bibiographies and all the rest (for the most part).

Tolerant, secular societies work well in specific circumstances, but to generalize "have always" is a mistake. Examples are nice. Even secular societies must legislate some moral code or other - there is no getting around it.

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 02:31 PM by Openeye

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I'm sorry - you are correct up to a point. What the OP said resonated with me, because of other things I had read, and your response did not. Posts on forums such as this tend to the subjective because we posters lack the time and resources to write up objective posts with bibiographies and all the rest (for the most part).

I can understand someone not having the time to put sources in a thread, and yes a lot of information that is posted on forums is subjective. However, it is an open forum and you are presenting your ideas in a public sphere where they are open to criticism. The ATS motto is "Deny Ignorance", I interpret that to mean being open minded and critical about ideas and "facts" being presented.

I play devils advocate a LOT in these forums because most of the time I believe in certain threads there is way to much head nodding where there should in fact be a voice of opposition or at least contention.

Tolerant, secular societies work well in specific circumstances, but to generalize "have always" is a mistake. Examples are nice.

Okay I will give you some examples:

The United States of America, The United Kingdom, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Japan, Canada, South Korea...

Hell pretty much every modern nation.

The only secular nations which could be considered worst or just as bad as a non-secular nation would be North Korea, The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, and Nazi Germany, and all of those nations had their own brand of dogma which is very similar to say that of Iran (a non secular nation).

Even secular societies must legislate some moral code or other - there is no getting around it.

I never said that morals did not play a part in society, I said that they are subjective. If one uses dogma to guide they morality you are bound to run into problems. But if you use logic, reason and empathy to govern your morality then you get closer to an actual civil and just society.

edit on 21-3-2013 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 21-3-2013 @ 02:46 PM by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by camaro68ss

Are you an economics expert? Is your profession in economics?

I'm no economics expert, but from what I can gather we are in much better shape economically than we were in the early 20th century.

I know for sure that there has been an improvement in the tech industry, as all my friends who were unemployed (as well as myself) are now employed full time making excellent salaries and the companies we work for are making record profits.

Yes as a matter of fact I am an economic expert. All gains and "record profits" are being propped up by the federal reserve printing 85 billion dollars a month and injecting it into the economy. They cant stop the printing because no one is buying our government bond. so the government on its current course is being funded by printed money!!!!! If the printing press are stopped, intrest rates will skyrocket and the government will be Insolvent in a matter of months. if the printing presses keep running, they will have to continually increase the amount of money printed to have the same effect until we reach hyperinflation and the currency collapses. This latter is the course the government is taking.

once the currancy collapse all bets are off. No shipments of fuel, no food at the supermarket, all Business stops! We are talking about the collapse of Rome part 2 and it will happen in the next 7 year!

your not the only one that doesn’t understand economics. Im opening people’s eyes daily and scaring the crap out of them with the truth. If you want to know more Im more than happy to explain it in great detail

edit on 21-3-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

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