Vatican Insider - Pope Francis replaces 'Throne of Peter' with simple chair

Originally posted by Rubic0n

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The guy is 76 years old .. has one lung ....

And that sort of fluff information somehow adds credit to him ?

1 - You totally took what I said out of context. We were discussing how he isn't a threat to anyone.
2 - That's not 'fluff'. That's information showing how he's just an old fella who isn't all that healthy.
3 - Your anti-Pope Francis agenda is showing.

Which pope do you trust that is not odd

Abraham Lincoln was the leader of an army that destroyed the south eastern united states. He also gave orders to destroyGeorgia and had many southerners slaughtered. He cared only to preserve the union, i.e. his power. Power only the north was not enough. I would not call him a man of the people and in no way compare him to the pope. the pope does not advocate murdering people for any reason.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rubic0n

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The guy is 76 years old .. has one lung ....

And that sort of fluff information somehow adds credit to him ?

1 - You totally took what I said out of context. We were discussing how he isn't a threat to anyone.
2 - That's not 'fluff'. That's information showing how he's just an old fella who isn't all that healthy.
3 - Your anti-Pope Francis agenda is showing.

My anti pope francis is showing ? ha , good laugh. I dont even know the guy since he has been in the picture for a mere few days but yeah sure....i must have a anti francis agenda .....

Get over your sad self will you

It is your pro pope francis agenda that is showing and it is all based on nothing but show so far, grow up already, your naive.

The Church is a far cry from what Christ envisioned. For starters, idol worship, which is condemned on nearly every other page of the Hebrew Bible, is rampant.

Many of the basic tenets and rules set down in the Old Testament have been thrown by the wayside by the Catholic Church, all in the erroneous theology that the Torah no longer applies because Christ saves.

To name a few: changing the day of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, intercession of the saints versus praying to G-d alone, idolatry in the form of statues, failure to adhere to the biblical feasts mandated to be held every year (Passover, etc.), changing the liturgical language to Latin (versus Aramaic or even Hebrew), instituting non-biblical holidays rooted in pagan traditions - such as Easter, etc.

Instead of promoting the adherence to the lifestyle that Christ and the Apostles lived - living according to the Torah - the Church has taken on all of the vestiges of paganism. Idol worship, Christmas, Easter, and praying the Rosary are all non-biblical.

While I am sure that Pope Francis is probably a fine chap, he is part of a theologically misguided, power hungry organization that, while having done great philanthropic work over the ages, is remiss in its theological underpinnings by straying too far from the premises outlined in the Hebrew Bible.

If the Church would become more observant of biblical rules clearly outlined in the Old Testament, it would not be facing the challenges it faces today. The Church needs to make a rather powerful about-face to rightsize its ship and return to its earliest Christian roots - where the earliest adherents to Christianity were Torah-observant Jews.

The upside is that a return to Torah observance will bring the Church closer to its ultimate goal - a one-world religion. By coming closer to the Torah, the Church will more closely align itself with both Orthodox Judaism as well as Islam.

Christ was a Jew, as were Moses, and even St. Paul. The Church needs a spring cleaning to return to its roots - It has moved too far away from its biblical roots.

The whore of babylon

That's powerful to keep repeating and copying that

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Is your position, then, that Jesus came to return us all to being better Jews?

"Is your position, then, that Jesus came to return us all to being better Jews?"

I believe that His primary mission - as well as the mission of St. Paul - was to proselytize to the Gentile nations and espouse the Noahide Laws.

If a Gentile wanted the full conversion, they would be able to adapt the full stricture of the Mosaic Law, St. Paul's beliefs to the contrary. Remember, St. Paul and Yeshua ("Jesus") were both rabbinical Jews. The hope was that by adopting some of the basic Noahide laws, a Gentile would see the value in adopting a life of following the Torah completely.

Hence, you see the debates in the New Testament about whether Gentiles need to eat kosher, follow the full stricture of the Mosaic Law. It was decided at the time that the Gentiles would need to follow some of the basic laws, but not all.

You have to remember that the earliest Christians did not have a New Testament. Their book of faith was the Torah. The earliest Christians celebrated the Sabbath on Friday evenings, running through Saturday evenings - not Sunday. They did not pray the Rosary, nor was it likely that they worshiped idols. The earliest Christians on Sunday would meet to celebrate what was then the earliest forms of what we now call the Mass in the Catholic faith.

Amazingly enough, the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass is very Jewish. Most of the prayers are Jewish in origin. The Catholic faith is not far from Judaism in this regard - It just needs to move back to some of the basic theological tenets of its roots: I.e., no idolatry, moving the Sabbath back to Saturday, etc. - as I outlined earlier.

Many of the monks and nuns to this day say the Divine Office every day. What is the Divine Office? The Jews call it the Tehillim - It is the Book of Psalms. The Jewish and Catholic faith have much in common, but Catholicism has deviated too far from its biblical roots.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Many of the monks and nuns to this day say the Divine Office every day. What is the Divine Office? The Jews call it the Tehillim - It is the Book of Psalms. The Jewish and Catholic faith have much in common, but Catholicism has deviated too far from its biblical roots.

All clergy are required to recite the Liturgy of the Hours, and it's optional to lay people. I read it every morning and, yes, it's almost all Psalms. My confessor gives me Psalms to mull over as penance, and the Mass always includes a Psalm. Contrast that to my old Protestant church, which might have a reading from Psalms once a year, if that.

Whether viewed as hymns or prayers, the Psalms are a treasure trove of inspiration and information that is all too often overlooked.

All clergy are required to recite the Liturgy of the Hours, and it's optional to lay people. I read it every morning and, yes, it's almost all Psalms.

The Liturgy of the Hours is the watered-down, post-Vatican II version of the traditional Divine Office that used to be recited in Latin only.

The Desert Fathers used to recite the entire Book of Psalms in a single day. Now the rotation of the Psalter in the Liturgy of the Hours is about once a month or so. The Orthodox Jews have their own rotation of the Psalter, and even their main prayer book - the Siddur - is replete with many Psalms said daily as well.

Not to belabor my point, but the Church is far from its roots. Hopefully the new Pope can institute some basic changes that can bring the Church back to its roots -- and off its high horse.

After Vatican II, the Church changed dramatically. A lot of non-Catholics are unfamiliar with Vatican II and unaware of the deep-seated changes both in liturgy, substance, and content of the Catholic faith. That's a whole other conversation, but there continues to this day a deep divide between the traditional Latin Rite Roman Catholics and the post-Vatican II Church.

If I were a personal adviser to the Pope, I would advise him to make some radical changes. Remove all idols, for starters, in all the churches worldwide, aside from simple crosses. Require the Tabernacle to be placed behind the altar. Move the Sabbath to the proper day. How about changing the language of the Church from Latin to Hebrew? Of course, none of this will ever happen. It's a lost cause at this point until the Church implodes upon itself or goes underground with the few remaining faithful. Catholicism is dead in Europe, and half dead in America.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
If I were a personal adviser to the Pope, I would advise him to make some radical changes. Remove all idols, for starters, in all the churches worldwide, aside from simple crosses. Require the Tabernacle to be placed behind the altar. Move the Sabbath to the proper day.

So you'd recommend that they become Seventh Day Adventists?

Not gonna happen, no.

So you'd recommend that they become Seventh Day Adventists?

No, I am recommending that they honor the Sabbath on the same day that Christ and His Apostles would have honored it --- Friday night through Saturday evening. The 7th day - as mandated by the Torah, the written word of the Lord.

Most Catholic churches offer Mass on Saturday evenings which fulfills one's obligation for Mass on Sunday. This is a bit hare-brained if you ask me.

Shabbat, the Sabbath, is the 7th day - Saturday, not Sunday. This is stated multiple times quite clearly in the Old Testament.

You will be hard pressed to find any biblical reference to the Sabbath as falling on Sunday. This change was post-biblical, as were all of the other abominable changes that were and have been made centuries ago.

It was the Roman Constantine that instituted Sunday as "Sabbath", and de-Judaized the Church to be appealing to the pagan masses.

Hence, you have all of these Constantine relics of paganism still in the Church. Sun symbolism everywhere. Sunday as the "day of the Sun" according to Constantine. The Blessed Sacrament held in a monstrance shaped like the golden sun. Pagan holidays like Easter overlaid with Christian themes.

Here we are 2,000+ years later from the time Christ lived, and we still have the Catholic Church promoting pagan theology, and Christians still operating under the erroneous belief that the Sabbath falls on a Sunday.

reply to post by CookieMonster09


Why? Do you think God cares what particular 24 hour period you set aside for him? My guess is that he'd rather you spent 24 hours over the course of the week acting Christlike than following Shabbat Law on Friday - Saturday night just because you think that matters.

does this make him the antichrist ?

j/k

I like this guys style

Why? Do you think God cares what particular 24 hour period you set aside for him? My guess is that he'd rather you spent 24 hours over the course of the week acting Christlike than following Shabbat Law on Friday - Saturday night just because you think that matters.

It's not up to me to question G-d. It's up to me to follow His Laws, not man-made laws. And, quite clearly, if you stand on the written Word, He makes it quite clear which day is the Sabbath.

This is not a debate - G-d makes it crystal clear which day of the week is the Sabbath.

If you choose to follow man - in this case a sun worshiper named Constantine - so be it. As for me, I'll take the written work of G-d over man any day of the week. If the Church were true to G-d's Word, it would do likewise, following in the footsteps of Christ and the Apostles.

Constantine changed the day of worship to Sunday? Because he was a sun worshipper?? I'm sorry, but i don't see any evidence for those positions, in fact I see the opposite:

The Letter of Barnabas

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

The Didascalia

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

Origen

"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

Victorinus

"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).

"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

As we see, Constantine had nothing to do with the change to Sunday, and the change was made before 80 A.D. At that time there was still at least one Gospel writer alive.

Sunday worship is entirely appropriate and Christian.

I don't care if he steps outside and sits on a dog s&!% covered kerb, he's still the head of an organization that has for close to a couple of thousand years, grown and thrived on all sorts of corruption that can still be found within its ranks. I personally believe this latest Pope has been carefully groomed for the position since his days as a priest. The Vatican has been in such a mess for so long now, and it was time to bring out someone the people would trust...a priest who has kept his nose clean, and has lived a long and humble life. He appears to be the sort of man the people will count on to rid the Church of the cancer that has been slowly eating it away. He'll probably first put on a show of bringing forth a few pervs to give an account of their actions, before disrobing them and turning over to the courts.
As far as the "simple chair" goes, he'd better just watch out for slivers! Sometimes our actions even though intended to be good, often come back and bite us where the sun don't shine, right when we least expect it!

reply to post by charles1952


Hey, didn't you know that Constantine was omnipotent and can be credited with almost all actions that occured in the world in the two to three hundred year era which surrounded his life?



Seriously, I swear I've seen him claimed to be behind everything but the discovery of America.

reply to post by adjensen

Dear adjensen,

(There's a 900 year gap between the end of my family line and the Emperor Constantine. I can hope can't I?)

"I have a dream." I'm afraid it can only be a dream without God's intervention.

I'd like to see the world say, "The question of whether there is a God, and what can we know about Him, is the most important question I, as an individual, can face. Therefore, I will put aside all of my preconceived notions, put away hate, and open myself to evidence and reason. I will investigate the works of the holy men and great thinkers of history, and the claims of the various gods, to determine truth."

"I will open my heart and mind to the Universe, and ask that if there is a God, He makes Himself known to me as an honest seeker. I will respect and encourage all others with love and a desire for their ultimate good."


Sorry, adjensen, my fingers ran away with me. I haven't subjected the above to any censorship. If there's anything good in it, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

With respect,
Charles1952