Vatican Insider - Pope Francis replaces 'Throne of Peter' with simple chair

reply to post by charles1952


Nicely put. Unfortunately, of course, the question of whether there is a God or not is of diminishing interest to a world that is beginning to conclude that there isn't one, wasn't one, and won't be one. A conclusion which is predicated mostly on the arrogance that says "if God doesn't come to me, personally, show me ID, beg me to worship him and do a miracle or three, then he doesn't exist. Oh, and I'd never worship a god who carries ID, begs me to worship him and does miracles that I demand."

Supplemented by the temptations, urges and sidetracking of a modern society that tells us to work ourselves to death for a house too large, a car too fast, 250 channels of crap on the telly and two weeks of "holiday" to try and enjoy life, it's a wonder that God's word still gets through to anyone. Imagine someone who decided that they wanted to chuck it all, go out in the wilderness and emulate the Desert Fathers... they'd be tossed in the madhouse, "for their own protection."

Constantine changed the day of worship to Sunday? Because he was a sun worshipper?? I'm sorry, but i don't see any evidence for those positions, in fact I see the opposite:

....upon which you then go on to provide quotes from anyone and everyone except the Word of G-d.

Brush off your Bible. If you can find a single instance where G-d or His Son, Yeshua, ordains the Sabbath as falling on a Sunday, I am all ears.

I don't really care what a Catholic priest, saint, or theologian has to say about the matter. All I care about is what G-d Himself commanded. And he commanded the Sabbath to fall on the 7th day, not on Sunday. This is the Fourth of the Ten Commandments, so this is not really a negotiable matter with G-d.

And, yes, Constantine was a sun-worshiper. In 321 A.D., he issued a proclamation to both Christians and non-Christians should observe the venerable day of the sun, "Sunday". We read in the Jewish Encyclopedia concerning the Sabbath and Sunday:

"Even Constantine the Great, when he enacted the first Sunday law in 321, did not refer to Old Testament injunctions, but wished to have the day distinguished and kept sacred merely as the "Sun's day." This first decree was supplemented by orders concerning military exercise, but in general it affected only the courts and the markets (Eusebius, "De Vita Constantini," iv. 18-20, quoted in Herzog-Plitt, "Real-Encyc." xiv. 429)."

Earlier in the same article, the Jewish Encyclopedia gives additional insight:

"That Jesus and his disciples kept the seventh day, and without vital departures from Pharisaic usages, is indisputable. The question of Sabbath observance first became acute under Paul, with the rise of the non-Jewish Christian communities. The Petrine, or Judæo-Christian, party insisted on rigid adherence to the Jewish law. It scorned the looser practises of the converts from without Israel. To this Col. ii. 16 et seq. has reference; Paul protests against judging the piety of the neophytes "in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast-day . . . or a Sabbath-day" (R. V.). He protests with greater bitterness in Gal. iv. 9-11, where observance of days is denounced as a return to the "weak and beggarly elements." In Rom. xiv. 5 et seq. it is assumed that whether one day or another is distinguished, or whether all are regarded as equally sacred, is a matter of indifference: every man must decide for himself."

Christ and His disciples kept the seventh day as the Sabbath, not Sunday. To suggest that one day is as good as another is to nullify G-d's commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy, notwithstanding St. Paul's theological opinions to the contrary.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Dear CookieMonster09,

Forgive me for misunderstanding you, for misunderstanding there must be.

You ask me to find a biblical reference for changing the day of observation from the Sabbath to Sunday. Then you tell me

To suggest that one day is as good as another is to nullify G-d's commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy, notwithstanding St. Paul's theological opinions to the contrary.

Here you tell me that I can't reference St. Paul's writing, indeed he is a heretic for going against the Word of God? Won't that affect a ton of Bible publishers?

Christ and His disciples kept the seventh day as the Sabbath, not Sunday.

Of course they did, for a while, they were Jews folowing Jewish custom and laws.

What I was pointing out was that the Church, by the end of the First Century, decided not to eliminate the Sabbath, but to celebrate and observe the Lord's day on Sunday. Are you telling me that all of the Christian Church became heretical within 100 years of Christ's death? Say it ain't so, Joe.

Constantine had nothing to do with it, the Sunday observance was in place well before he was born. (Your reference for Constantine's Sun religion comes from a Jewish encyclopedia?)

With respect,
Charles1952

Here you tell me that I can't reference St. Paul's writing, indeed he is a heretic for going against the Word of God? Won't that affect a ton of Bible publishers?

Again, St. Paul expressing his own opinions in the Bible do not negate G-d's commandment to keep the Sabbath holy.

But let's be clear about what St. Paul states in Galatians 4: 9-11 - Here are the commentary notes from the very Catholic Douay Rheims Bible regarding this verse:

"[10] You observe days: He speaks not of the observation of the Lord's day, or other Christian festivals; but either of the superstitious observation of days lucky and unlucky; or else of the Jewish festivals, to the observance of which, certain Jewish teachers sought to induce the Galatians."

Here we see that St. Paul is most emphatically not advocating the switching of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. He is advocating, however, that Christians pursue the higher spiritual heights, and not steep themselves into the mundane servitude of the Mosaic Law.

The Sabbath however, when properly celebrated, elevates like a touch of heaven. It is a day of abandoning materialism and normal day-to-day living, and spending time in spiritual matters. It is hardly mundane servitude.

In regards to Romans Chapter 14 verse 5, St. Paul's whole point is that we should not judge others, especially as it relates to those new Christians at the time who would be unfamiliar with the concept of honoring the Sabbath.

Again, I find no reference in the Bible - New or Old Testament - that changes the Sabbath to Sunday.

What I was pointing out was that the Church, by the end of the First Century, decided not to eliminate the Sabbath, but to celebrate and observe the Lord's day on Sunday. Are you telling me that all of the Christian Church became heretical within 100 years of Christ's death? Say it ain't so, Joe.

Actually, they did both. The earliest Christians observed the traditional Sabbath on Saturday (actually, from Friday evening until Saturday evening), as well as all of the Jewish holidays. We see that the earliest Christians would then gather also on Sunday, and celebrate the earliest versions of what we now called the Mass.

Again, this all boils down to whose authority you choose to follow. You can either follow G-d's written word and eternal commandments laid out in Scripture, or you can follow man's inventions and concocted traditions.

Of course they did, for a while, they were Jews following Jewish custom and laws.

If one would truly want to imitate Christ, one would observe the Sabbath and Jewish festivals as Christ did. Christ and His disciples were not Jews for a time - They were born as Jews and died as Jews. They followed Jewish customs and laws their entire life.

Fortunately, if you look closely, you will see the vestiges of Judaism still in Catholicism, although it is clouded with paganism -- I consider these theological errors that will eventually be rooted out of the Church. The pre-Vatican II Latin Rite Mass is clearly Jewish in origin as many of the prayers closely mimic the Jewish Siddur used even today (Siddur = Jewish prayer book).

Constantine had nothing to do with it, the Sunday observance was in place well before he was born. (Your reference for Constantine's Sun religion comes from a Jewish encyclopedia?)

Actually, sun-worshiper Constantine in 321 A.D. issued his proclamation that Sunday should a day of rest. Constantine, after all, helped catapult the Christian religion from obscurity into the de facto state religion of the time. So, yes, Constantine's proclamation is most relevant. If you were Jewish at the time, and believed in Yeshua as the Messiah, you would still observe the traditional Jewish Sabbath and the Jewish festivals, and you might also celebrate the Mass (its earliest versions) on Sunday.

Unfortunately, we still see Roman paganism in the current Church, and it has yet to be rooted out.

Incidentally, besides the Jewish Encyclopedia -- a very erudite and respectable source by the way -- you can find numerous historical and theological writings attesting to Constantine as a sun-worshiper.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Constantine, after all, helped catapult the Christian religion from obscurity into the de facto state religion of the time.

Christianity was hardly obscure in the time preceding its legalization, and Constantine did not make it the state religion -- he simply legalized it and, if he ever converted to Christianity, it was toward the end of his life.

Do you think that people who do not observe the Jewish Sabbath and instead worship on Sunday are condemned for it?

Do you think that people who do not observe the Jewish Sabbath and instead worship on Sunday are condemned for it?

No, I believe that they are misguided and following extra-biblical theologies. I also believe that if someone violates G-d's direct commandments, there are repercussions. It's not me to judge - G-d will do that Himself.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Dear CookieMonster09,

Before we get back to Bible verses and history, might I ask about your reply to adjensen?

It's not me to judge - G-d will do that Himself.

I agree completely, here you are absolutely right and Scriptural. Nice work.

No, I believe that they are misguided and following extra-biblical theologies. I also believe that if someone violates G-d's direct commandments, there are repercussions.

In, for example, the case of the Catholic Church, if one freely and knowingly commits serious sin and never repents of it they are condemned, subject to the unsearchable mercy of God.

Let's take the case of a person we'll call "Me," or "I" for short. If I am exposed to and taught the principles of 7th day worship, and consciously and knowingly reject them, and never change my mind, what are the "repercussions" you speak of (again subject to the mercy of God)? If there aren't any, then why change? (I'm most interested in the first question.)

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Do you think that people who do not observe the Jewish Sabbath and instead worship on Sunday are condemned for it?

No, I believe that they are misguided and following extra-biblical theologies. I also believe that if someone violates G-d's direct commandments, there are repercussions.

We know that Jesus did not rest on the Sabbath, nor did he follow the Old Testament Sabbath Law that Moses said was given to the Israelites by God. If we agree that Christ did not sin, we're left with a bit of a gap there, no?

Let's take the case of a person we'll call "Me," or "I" for short. If I am exposed to and taught the principles of 7th day worship, and consciously and knowingly reject them, and never change my mind, what are the "repercussions" you speak of (again subject to the mercy of God)? If there aren't any, then why change? (I'm most interested in the first question.)

The wages of sin are death. The commandment to keep the Sabbath was a perpetual commandment for the children of Israel.

In Exodus 31, verses 12-17 of the Hebrew Bible, we read:

12 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
13 'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.'

The repercussions for sin are determined by G-d, not man. Certainly, some of these repercussions could potentially take place here on Earth, such as ill health, an early death, etc. Some of these punishments are carried out by G-d's messengers, as in the case of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

In some Jewish writings, the question is asked why the righteous are punished and the wicked prosper, to which the answer is given that in the World to Come the righteous will prosper and the wicked vanquished. The punishment given to the righteous during their time here on Earth is temporary, whereas the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.

There is also a concept in Judaism that discusses one's full measure of sin before G-d intervenes. It's almost like we have a limit to how much sin can be done before G-d's wrath is unleashed. Up until that time, He is merciful and forgiving.

And yes, I do personally believe that there are repercussions to sin and violating G-d's commandments. You have too many Jewish Sages that live long, productive, and fruitful lives of peace, love, and charity. On the contrary, we have evidence of the exact opposite as well.

Take the laws of kosher. We know now, scientifically, that there are major health benefits to keeping a kosher diet. Some Christians cite Christ in saying that the kosher laws are no longer in effect. Christ never abandoned the kosher laws, he just said that precedence should be given to spiritual laws of mind and spirit over the laws of kosher. And, He was right - We should be more mindful of our words, thoughts, and actions towards others. But the kosher laws are also proven to help one live a healthier life from a physical health perspective, and we have Christ Himself saying that "not one jot or tittle" of the Torah will go unfulfilled.

If you violate kosher laws, will you die instantly? Not likely. But over time, the cumulative effects could lead to a shorter lifespan.

We know that Jesus did not rest on the Sabbath, nor did he follow the Old Testament Sabbath Law that Moses said was given to the Israelites by God. If we agree that Christ did not sin, we're left with a bit of a gap there, no?

Christ kept the Sabbath. The Pharisees of his time were trying to find man-made (i.e., rabbinic) violations of the Sabbath for the sake of persecuting - and ultimately crucifying - Christ. It's like someone trying to twist and turn to find any excuse to accuse an innocent person. Christ was a Torah observant Jew.