An idea worth censoring: 'The Science Delusion'

reply to post by Arbitrageur

I'd actually like to see telepathy or other psi scientifically proven by science because I think it would be pretty cool.

There are many studies which show telepathy is a real phenomena. One of the most common experiments is the one where they get people to view a series of images on a computer where some of the images are very disturbing so that they illicit a measurable response in the viewer (heart rate increase, pupil dilation, etc). I'm sure you've heard of this experiment. These studies consistently show that the subjects are able to predict when a disturbing image is about to appear moments before it appears. There are even studies which take all of these studies and analyze them as one body of evidence. For example this study looks at 26 different studies conducted over several decades.

The Northwestern University researchers analyzed the results of 26 studies published between 1978 and 2010 to look into whether humans have the ability to predict future important events without any clues as to what might happen, said Julia Mossbridge, lead author of the study and research associate in the Visual Perception, Cognition and Neuroscience Laboratory at Northwestern.

Mossbridge’s analysis of the data puts the odds of her findings being the result of chance or coincidence at 400 billion to one.

www.redorbit.com...

Or what about this study conducted over a 5 year period which shows that there can be some sort unseen connection between two people? There are many studies along these lines, the RNG experiments, the animal experiments and more... you simply don't look for them because your mind has already reached a pre-determined conclusion.

A five-year study monitoring brain activity during therapy sessions has shown that two people can become physiologically aligned - parts of their nervous systems beating in harmony - despite having no physical contact with each another.

Trisha Stratford, the neuropsychotherapist who did the research at University of Technology, Sydney, said her study provided a deeper understanding of what happened when people interacted, including when a couple fell in love.

Ms Stratford said her research could also provide clues about how best to communicate with or "chat up" a potential partner using this sixth sense, which has long been suggested but never extensively identified in science.

She observed 30 volunteers using electrocardiography and a monitor on the finger to measure skin conductance resonance to identify the moment of alignment or "oneness" during individual counselling with a therapist.

"It was very exciting. When we're in this moment of oneness or an altered state, the most exciting thing is that a part of the brain called the parietal lobe is fired into action.

When this happens we can read each other's brains and bodies at a deeper level - a sixth sense."

"It really is quite eerie when you see the traces on the screen start to match each other as they come into alignment," Dr Lal said. "We now believe physiological alignment is required for successful therapy."

www.smh.com.au...

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

What does paranormal research have to do with big G or anything I've said thus far (apart from the topic of telepathy)?

Variations in the value of the gravitational constant are being used to support the belief that mind makes matter rather than vice versa

You and Bedlam are misinterpreting my statements quite a lot. Read what I said again without the preconceptions of what it is I'm saying.

Not misinterpreting them, simply taking them in the larger context.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


but was is more than chance?

Sure some people would predict the next image was going to scare them.

reply to post by Wertdagf

but was is more than chance?

Try reading the rest of my post and make up your own mind. Does 400 billion to 1 sound like chance? I'm not going to decide for you... I'm sure Arbitrageur will be here shortly to exhibit his/her statistical super powers and straighten us out.

reply to post by Astyanax

Variations in the value of the gravitational constant are being used to support the belief that mind makes matter rather than vice versa

I'm not saying anything like that. I'm not attaching any mystical reasoning behind the reason why big G may change. But when you think about dark matter, dark energy, the way gravity works, and other such topics it becomes obvious we are lacking a clear theory to describe the bigger picture. We are missing many many pieces of the puzzle, and it's not so hard to believe we may be missing something which explains why big G can change.

Maybe it does change, maybe it doesn't... but I would hardly say we know enough to say with absolute certainty that it doesn't change, and if you believe otherwise I would say you suffer from the "science delusion". And for those of you who question my sanity or scientific fluency, please check out this thread I wrote a little while ago which clearly demonstrates my knowledge of these advanced topics:

Layman's Guide To Understanding Modern Cosmology (dark energy, dark matter, higgs field etc)

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

but was is more than chance?

Try reading the rest of my post and make up your own mind. Does 400 billion to 1 sound like chance? I'm not going to decide for you... I'm sure Arbitrageur will be here shortly to exhibit his/her statistical super powers and straighten us out.

If my statistical superpowers were needed, I'd be glad to help out, but they aren't needed. All that's needed is a careful reading of the paper by Mossberg et al which discusses various possible causes of the effect they observe. They brought up most of the things I would have so I'm impressed by that. Note they do not in any way conclude that "400 billion to 1" are the odds of telepathy occurring, rather, they list multiple other causes and say that they really don't know which one or combination of them may be the cause of the effect seen.

I think the cause may in fact be one or more of what's in their list of possible causes. But they don't know which of those causes are responsible, and neither do you or I.

Further, a careful reading of the paper shows that since telepathy is a paranormal phenomenon, and the authors state that they believe the cause is not paranormal, one can only conclude that the authors think the cause is not telepathy or other paranormal activity.

From the Mossberg et al paper you cited:

The cause of this anticipatory activity, which undoubtedly lies within the realm of natural physical processes (as opposed to supernatural or paranormal ones), remains to be determined.

Mossberg claims to be a mainstream researcher so might just be saying that to gain mainstream acceptance, but it's also possible to take that at face value. I think Mossberg is pretty open-minded like I am, but hasn't ruled out any of the other possible causes listed in the paper that have nothing to do with telepathy etc.

So the conclusion is basically, no conclusion except that more research is needed.

We can always hope that future research may actually conclude something useful. But this Mossberg paper is inconclusive, as usual.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

I'm not saying anything like that. I'm not attaching any mystical reasoning behind the reason why big G may change.

I know. But we are discussing something larger than the apparent fluctuations of a physical constant.

When you think about dark matter, dark energy, the way gravity works, and other such topics it becomes obvious we are lacking a clear theory to describe the bigger picture. We are missing many many pieces of the puzzle, and it's not so hard to believe we may be missing something which explains why big G can change.

This may well be true, or we may simply be approaching the intrinsic limits of knowledge. In any case, there is no need to postulate mind over matter to explain it. I know you didn't do that, but your words may be taken as aid and comfort by those who do. I'm sure you agree it would be a pity if they were.

And for those of you who question my sanity or scientific fluency, please check out this thread I wrote a little while ago which clearly demonstrates my knowledge of these advanced topics...

This is a little sad. I have discussed scientific topics with you before. You are knowledgeable about science in the same way a frequent visitor to Paris may be knowledgeable about that city. You know your way around but nobody would take you for a native. Arbitrageur, on the other hand, really knows his onions, and it is quite presumptuous of you to suggest that he's deluded.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
From the Mossberg et al paper you cited:

The cause of this anticipatory activity, which undoubtedly lies within the realm of natural physical processes (as opposed to supernatural or paranormal ones), remains to be determined.

You seem to misinterpreting this statement. Mossberg is simply saying there must be some sort of underlying phenomena causing the effect which has yet to be identified. Of course it's not "paranormal", there is no such thing as paranormal. Everything that exists can be explained by science... even if god exists there is a scientific explanation for how and why such a god exists, how it came to be, how it functions, what it is constructed of, how its brain/mind works, so on and so forth. There are things we already understand, and things we don't yet understand... nothing more. The things we don't understand yet are often neglected and relegated to the realms of the paranormal simply because they don't align with our current scientific theories. You seem to be under the impression I'm claiming that we all have some sort of supernatural magical powers. More closed mindedness and preconceptions.

I think Mossberg is pretty open-minded like I am, but hasn't ruled out any of the other possible causes listed in the paper that have nothing to do with telepathy etc.

Mossberg has not ruled out other possibilities obviously... even I wouldn't rule out other possibilities. But that still doesn't change the fact that the odds of this phenomena being a mere coincidence are 400 billion to one. Sure it may have other explenations, but there's still some sort of phenomena occurring, and I'm inclined to believe it's exactly what it looks like... our brains have some sort of ability to sense near-future events. I believe it probably works based on some sort of quantum principle, the brain does have quantum components.

reply to post by Astyanax

Arbitrageur, on the other hand, really knows his onions, and it is quite presumptuous of you to suggest that he's deluded.

You're right, delusional is a bit of a harsh and exaggerated word for those who have absolute faith in the current state of scientific understanding. Unlike religion, science accepts the fact that it doesn't explain everything, it is always seeking new information and data to update previous theories, old ideas are discarded and new ones are adopted all the time. There's no logic in having absolute faith in our current theories if they aren't fully complete... science is the art of questioning, if you aren't willing to question anything and instead you latch on hopelessly to the current theories as if they were written by the God of science... you are turning science into a religion where those who question the status quo are violently attacked and belittled. Like trying to censor this guy... that is absolutely disgusting. The top comment on the video says it perfectly:

Part of Science is replacing the outdated paradigms of the past. If Science is closed to new ideas, nothing is ever accomplished. TED censoring talks like this is similar to the church in Europe attempting to suppress a sun-centric solar system.

reply to post by Bedlam


I will say it again, in order to prove something scientifically one needs to test a population. Gravity theory is still a theory because it is the result of a statistical analysis. To prove psi every person on the planet would have to be tested in which case the results would constitute proof.

In reality and in relation to history we have always felt that what was known at the time was all there was to know. As such, at best you are wrong about the idea that your current thinking is realistic. At best, you are presenting an argument that is consistent with the status quo but otherwise irrelevant without proof either way.


In so far as your comment concerning radio waves Tegmarks argument that that the brain does not function fast enough for it to relate to quantum states has been shown to be incorrect given recent results.

That would be the relevant point today.

reply to post by Kashai

To prove psi every person on the planet would have to be tested in which case the results would constitute proof.

You would not have to test the whole population. A statistically significant sample would suffice. The problem is deciding what sample is significant. If paraphysical powers are present in more than, say, one in a million, a sample of a few thousand should do the trick. There are plenty of long-term medical studies with sample sizes that big. If such powers are rarer than that, it's probably fair to say they don't exist.

In reality and in relation to history we have always felt that what was known at the time was all there was to know. As such, at best you are wrong about the idea that your current thinking is realistic.

Completely wrong. In reality and throughout history, humans have always understood that there were things unknown to them (e.g. what happens after death, or whether there is life on other worlds) and for most of history it was believed that some things would remain forever unknowable (e.g. divine purpose, the future in detail).

Tegmarks argument that that the brain does not function fast enough for it to relate to quantum states has been shown to be incorrect given recent results.

All physical effects are at bottom quantum effects. The point is that no model exists to show how the brain can operate as a quantum device. Or are you going to offer us microtubules again?

Originally posted by Kashai

In so far as your comment concerning radio waves

Tegmarks argument that that the brain does not function fast enough for it to relate to quantum states has been shown to be incorrect given recent results.

That would be the relevant point today.

edit on 27-3-2013 by Kashai because: added and modifed content

Not actually radiating propagating radio waves is awfully relevant given that your 'radio as psi' argument would totally depend on it.

And you don't. By the way, neurons aren't electrical, they're chemical. All the signaling is chemical in nature. And the electron motion is lateral to the cell membrane, not longitudinal down the axons.

Originally posted by Bedlam

And you don't. By the way, neurons aren't electrical, they're chemical. All the signaling is chemical in nature. And the electron motion is lateral to the cell membrane, not longitudinal down the axons.

"A neuron (pron.: /ˈnjʊərɒn/ nyewr-on or pron.: /ˈnʊərɒn/ newr-on; also known as a neurone or nerve cell) is an electrically excitable cell that processes and transmits information through electrical and chemical signals."

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by Bedlam

And you don't. By the way, neurons aren't electrical, they're chemical. All the signaling is chemical in nature. And the electron motion is lateral to the cell membrane, not longitudinal down the axons.

"A neuron (pron.: /ˈnjʊərɒn/ nyewr-on or pron.: /ˈnʊərɒn/ newr-on; also known as a neurone or nerve cell) is an electrically excitable cell that processes and transmits information through electrical and chemical signals."

I already proved to Bedlam that our brains emit EM waves due to the electrical firing of neurons on the last page, but he chose to ignore my comment and continue spreading ignorance. The chemical signals associated with brain activity are extremely slow compared to the electrical signals. Most of the brain activity is an electrical process.

Radio waves and brain waves are both forms of electromagnetic radiation—waves of energy that travel at the speed of light. The difference between brain waves, radio waves, and other electromagnetic waves (such as visible light, X-rays and Gamma rays) lies in their frequency—that is, how often the waves peak and trough in a second.

Radio waves, which include radio and other wireless transmission signals, as well as other natural signals in the same frequency, peak and trough at between 50 and 1000 megahertz—that’s between 50 million and one billion oscillations per second.

The human brain also emits waves, like when a person focuses her attention or remembers something. This activity fires thousands of neurons simultaneously at the same frequency generating a wave—but at a rate closer to 10 to 100 cycles per second.

engineering.mit.edu...

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot
Talk is cheap, it takes data to challenge science.

All I got out of the lecture was another new age huckster pitching a strawman argument to sell a book ( what a disappointing excuse for a TED talk, it is fairly easy to see why the organisation chose not to feature the content)

Then you are sadly lacking in powers of normal perception and comprehension.

What I got out of this is there are legitimate questions of Science that are not being answered or even looked at due to scientific dogma getting in the way - and it's been going on at least since the 1960's. That's pretty telling.

So you looked at his bio, discovered he was a legitimate research scientists and still fail to understand that he is simply bringing up the point that there are areas of science where dogma trumps honest investigation? Amazing.

If TED calls these legitimate questions of " Why aren't we asking more questions and looking at all data honestly instead of dogma" - Pseudoscience, then TED also is sadly lacking in powers of normal perception and comprehension. They might as well pack up shop and go back to kindergarten because obviously, they have a lot to learn about the true nature of science and the scientific methodology. They make science itself obsolete if they believe there is no room for further investigation. Seems like they believe their own dogma and this gentleman is spot on.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Ok, cool. So I guess the theory as to how telepathy would theoretically work, would be 2 people storing information in their brains independently yet similarly. (for example, the way I store an image of a dog in my brain my be similar to yours) and so by some how excitingly thinking of a dog, the electrical impulse of the thought, can project into the EM field between your and my head, and this can be interpreted in your head? Or it potentially doesnt have to be so specific as that with something like a dog, but even the sensing of "vibes" and emotions could potentially be sent through brainwaves (maybe? I have heard you lose 80% of your body heat through your head, but I guess that wouldnt be considered any retrievable information, it would be considered entropy)

this is the only real information regarding telepathy I have watched, and there are 2 parts, i didnt even make it all the way through admittedly. The experiments he mentions and results are interesting.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

The human brain also emits waves, like when a person focuses her attention or remembers something. This activity fires thousands of neurons simultaneously at the same frequency generating a wave—but at a rate closer to 10 to 100 cycles per second.

engineering.mit.edu...

edit on 28/3/2013 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

Thats also very interesting. Im sure alot of this topic of study and understanding has to do with how information in the brain is stored. Its amazing to think about ( I dont know too much about this stuff) how our thoughts and memories and language and imagination is stored and functions. How you can dream and think in such detail, what is physically creating and forming that detail in your mind, how is it so malleable and controllable, how is it so clear. so a person remembers something, is what that person remembering stored chemically in some chamber of a molecule or symbol or in energy states of atoms, and to remember something, the person uses their energy and consciousness to send these neuron wave to that chamber to retrieve the memory, like scanning a disk or something? Is it the neuron wave which is the consciousness, which interprets the memory and is you seeing the memory?

reply to post by ImaFungi

Or it potentially doesnt have to be so specific as that with something like a dog, but even the sensing of "vibes" and emotions could potentially be sent through brainwaves

There were experiments done back in 2011 where scientists have been able to reconstruct images and video from brain waves. The reconstructions are a bit blurry but still the quality is quite mind blowing when one considers the abstract nature of thought.

But regardless of that, I do think most of the information we pick up from other people is "emotional vibes". I believe it's possible to sense the emotional state of a person without actually seeing them, if you're close enough to them. It's even possible to sense the overall emotional state of a group of people, like when you enter a room of people it's possible to pick up on the "emotional atmosphere" of the room.

Here's something I once said:

Evolution will exploit every possible mechanism in order to build more robust organisms. The ability to sense danger moments before that danger arrives, is indispensable for survival.

The ability to pick up on the thoughts and/or emotional state of other people also has numerous evolutionary advantages. We can get along with others better and avoid angry people.

reply to post by ImaFungi


To all:
You guys are still working on solutions that have a bunch of different subjects. It cannot be figure out that way. Everything must be one subject.

To funguy:
Think of it more like your body and aura are the same kind of energy(God's word), and the only difference between your energy and the rest of the energy in reality, is the concepts that the energies currently holds. All of the energy that makes up you/reality can communicate, receive, and interpret instructions. Even space itself is made up of the same God's word, but it's concepts dictate what it's shape is and how it communicates, receives, and interprets new instructions.

In your thread I mentioned that God's word was like breath in the cold air, but maybe it is easier if you think of it like a pool of electricity and information travels like ac current. Amperage would be the equivalent of instructions. (amps are how fast electrons alternate/move in a current (think like they are pushing back and forth like ac and not flowing like dc))

Think of telepathy as using your will/faith to send instruction through energy, in order to retrieve the information/concepts stored in the other energy(so that your consciousness can read it).

So, we are all telepaths, in the sense that our consciousness(living soul - self), receives information from the energy adjacent to it.

Science should be viewed more akin to trying to figure out different forms of God's word, than the study of matters' actions. The energy/God's word can change shape and properties based on it's instructions - (this is how shape shifting works as well) but my point is that this relates to the OP in that physics and laws of science are not stagnant. I want to keep going and explaining how I think other things work, but I'll stop here cause there's too many faithless people around and they need faith before they receive info.

To all:
If you put faith in God, he will give you answers, if you ask for them. The fallen ones will only give you half-truths, and half-truths destroy equations. They do it deliberately.

Oh and edit to add: Check out Ghost Hunters season 2 episode 13 for an example of how I think of telepathy. I don't know if they faked the footage, but it looks similar to how I envision it.

Here's a clip of what I just mentioned. Idk if youtube will take it down or not. So if you read this and the video below doesn't work, see: Ghost Hunters season 2 episode 13


Good luck

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Kashai

 

To prove psi every person on the planet would have to be tested in which case the results would constitute proof.

You would not have to test the whole population. A statistically significant sample would suffice. The problem is deciding what sample is significant. If paraphysical powers are present in more than, say, one in a million, a sample of a few thousand should do the trick. There are plenty of long-term medical studies with sample sizes that big. If such powers are rarer than that, it's probably fair to say they don't exist.

The body of parapsychological evidence suggests that psychic ability is present in everyone, to some degree. It varies but it's there, even in people who don't believe. Even you. It's probably a feature of consciousness itself. Not a rare quirk.

In terms of scoring pattern, you would probably be a "goat". You would probably get a statistically significant score in an ESP test, but in the negative direction. Whereas a believer, or "sheep", would get a statistically significant score in the positive direction. Scoring patterns are a very interesting thing.

I just found out that a parapsychologist colleague of mine, Gertrude Schmeidler, died last month (1912-2009). I say colleague rather than friend, for while we were friendly there was a great age range difference so we never got to know each other well.

Gertrude made one of the most important discoveries ever in parapsychology, one with strong spiritual implications and one which I think none of the spiritual traditions knows about, for while it’s something that can happen in everyday life, it’s pretty much unobservable except under laboratory conditions. She gave many classes of students ESP tests, guessing at concealed cards, but, before giving or scoring the tests, she had students fill out questionnaires that asked, among other things, whether they believed in ESP.

When she analyzed the results separately for the believers – the “sheep” – and the non-believers – the “goats” – she found a small, but significant difference. The sheep got more right than you would expect by chance guessing, they were occasionally using ESP. The goats, on the other hand, got significantly fewer right than you would expect by chance.

Think of it this way. If you were asked to guess red or black with ordinary playing cards, no feedback until you’d done the whole deck, you would average about 50% correct by chance. If you got 100% correct, you don’t need statistics to know that would be astounding.

But if you got 0%?

Just as astounding!

The sheep thought they could do it, they got “good” scores, they were happy. The goats knew there was no ESP, nothing to get, they got poor scores, they were happy, that “proved” their belief. These were not people who were sophisticated enough about statistics to know that scoring below chance could be significant….

Many other experimenters replicated this effect over the years.

The only way I’ve ever been able to understand it is to think that the goats occasionally used ESP, but on an unconscious level, to know what the next card was and then their unconscious, acting in the service of their conscious belief system, influenced them to call anything but the correct one. The goats used a “miracle” to support their belief that there were no such things as miracles….

Talk about living in samsara, in a state of illusion!

Our human knowledge is richer for Gertrude’s work. She had been retired for some years and died peacefully in her sleep on March 9th.

Pioneering Parapsychologist Gertrude Schmeidler Has Died

So, the sheep-goat effect poses a bit of a problem. "Goats" unconsciously use psi to remain ignorant of psi, so that they can maintain their flawed psi-free belief system.

They do this when they are subjects in an experiment, and they do this when they are scientists performing an experiment. When the "goat" scientist performing an experiment uses unconscious psi to suppress the psi he is testing for, it's called the experimenter psi effect.

It's a big problem. How do you persuade a skeptical "goat" scientist who is trying to replicate a parapsychological experiment to aggressively control for his own unconscious psi when he doesn't even believe in it in the first place?