An idea worth censoring: 'The Science Delusion'

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by squiz

 

I'm a member of a Peyote church. Not everyone who approaches is accepted by the Peyote Spirits. There is a certain protection around the Holy ground.

Damm, I am jealous.

I anxiously await the first esoteric light bulb, the first peyote-fueled logic circuits, the dawn of psi powered vehicles.

One day, no doubt, the first mentationally powered air conditioning, the development of structures dreamed of by magic and constructed by thought, food and clean water summoned for the hungry and thirsty from nether dimensions by meditation on the Tree of Life.

Of course, being totally bogus, none of this will happen.

Not being real = no practical results. Evar.

Originally posted by Bedlam
I anxiously await the first esoteric light bulb, the first peyote-fueled logic circuits, the dawn of psi powered vehicles.

One day, no doubt, the first mentationally powered air conditioning, the development of structures dreamed of by magic and constructed by thought, food and clean water summoned for the hungry and thirsty from nether dimensions by meditation on the Tree of Life.

Of course, being totally bogus, none of this will happen.

Not being real = no practical results. Evar.

Do you know where aspirin comes from? It is from the bark of a red willow tree, you can actually chew the bark in order to relive a headache. How did scientist discover this?

They sent researchers to interact with indigenous cultures and pretty much what is defined today as medications, historically was discovered in much the same way. It would make sense that if one was to look for evidence in relation to the validity of religions, one would look into its origins.

The closest thing to a scientist addressing the matter of religion in indigenous cultures, resulted in the movie "The Serpent and the Rainbow". Beyond that, there is no other real effort to research Spirituality in this vane. Yes, there is much to do in relation the effort to research Psi ability in western society.

But in relation to every study out there? All of the focus with, respect to population is upon individuals raised in western society and working upon there Masters Degree. You see when you mention matters like the Spanish Inquisition and Witch Hunts in general (that in parts of the world do still occur)? Is it possible that genetically such abilities became depressed and so therefore, in order to validate or invalidate psi ability. The point would be to investigate a culture where that did not happen to the extent it is observed in western culture.

Consider the potential of Jesus Christ having been a favorable mutation. In relation to what humans could do altogether, in perhaps 2.5 billion years and as a result of evolution.

In general such abilities could be common place.



Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Kashai

Do you know where aspirin comes from? It is from the bark of a red willow tree, you can actually chew the bark in order to relive a headache. How did scientist discover this?

They sent researchers to interact with indigenous cultures and pretty much what is defined today as medications, historically was discovered in much the same way. It would make sense that if one was to look for evidence in relation to the validity of religions, one would look into its origins.

This shows how science actually works, though. Observation, testing, speculation that the willow tree bark is why your headache went away, testing that it was. The indigenous cultures did this in an informal way. Science these days collects huge numbers of plants looking for medicinally active chemicals.

What didn't happen here is that someone prayed to the spirit of an alien and was channeled the info.

The closest thing to a scientist addressing the matter of religion in indigenous cultures, resulted in the movie "The Serpent and the Rainbow". Beyond that, there is no other real effort to research Spirituality in this vane. Yes, there is much to do in relation the effort to research Psi ability in western society.

Psi != spirea plants.

Is it possible that genetically such abilities became depressed and so therefore, in order to validate or invalidate psi ability. The point would be to investigate a culture where that did not happen to the extent it is observed in western culture.

Is it possible they're nothing but wish fulfillment, and fantasy, and so therefore, don't exist and never did?

Consider the potential of Jesus Christ having been a favorable mutation. In relation to what humans could do altogether, in perhaps 2.5 billion years and as a result of evolution.

In general such abilities could be common place.

Nonsense. IMHO.

And the materialist assumption works really, really well—in detecting and quantifying things that have a material or mechanistic explanation. Materialism has allowed us to predict and control what happens in nature with astonishing success. The jaw-dropping edifice of modern science, from space probes to nanosurgery, is the result.

But the success has gone to the materialists’ heads. From a fruitful method, materialism becomes an axiom: If science can’t quantify something, it doesn’t exist, and so the subjective, unquantifiable, immaterial “manifest image” of our mental life is proved to be an illusion.

Here materialism bumps up against itself. Nagel insists that we know some things to exist even if materialism omits or ignores or is oblivious to them. Reductive materialism doesn’t account for the “brute facts” of existence—it doesn’t explain, for example, why the world exists at all, or how life arose from nonlife. Closer to home, it doesn’t plausibly explain the fundamental beliefs we rely on as we go about our everyday business: the truth of our subjective experience, our ability to reason, our capacity to recognize that some acts are virtuous and others aren’t. These failures, Nagel says, aren’t just temporary gaps in our knowledge, waiting to be filled in by new discoveries in science. On its own terms, materialism cannot account for brute facts. Brute facts are irreducible, and materialism, which operates by breaking things down to their physical components, stands useless before them. “There is little or no possibility,” he writes, “that these facts depend on nothing but the laws of physics.”

Materialism describes a world we don't live in.

Who is this heretic Tom Nagel?
m.weeklystandard.com...

reply to post by squiz

That says it all, you have never looked and know nothing about it.

I said I'm not that interested. I didn't say I had never been interested.

All of the people studing NDE's are united, consciousness continues.

Yet they have been unable to devise an experiment that will prove or disprove their claims. All they have to go on is personal testimonials. Not one single independently-verifiable datum. Not one.

Millions of cases, many veridical and documented in medical journals. We have had scientists and nueroscientists accounts as well.

'Anecdotal' does not mean 'veridical'.

The case for PSI is extremely strong as well, great results are still coming out. Even replicated by the skeptics to their dismay.

Statistical anomalies painstakingly sifted from hundreds of trials are hardly 'great results'.

Nothing I haven't heard beford Asty. It is just dismissal based on nothing, not very scientific IMO. Sort of what I would expect from someone suffering from the science dillusion.

Your quite wrong, there are hundreds of veridical cases. As I said there is no point discussing it with you, you have made up your mind. The researchers, all of them agree. Many of them were materialists seriously looking for a brain based cause. Sam Parnia is a good example, he was on the fence for years, now he is quite convinced. Based on evidence. He did not come to that conclusion lightly. The other researchers are in agreement. I think you'd find that the experiencers would also disagree with you, including Eben Alexander.

I guess your beef is with them not me. Complain to them.

Relax dude, I am not looking for an argument, however you seem to be, despite your claim I was. you have your world view and I have mine. What a terribly sad view it is, no wonder you are so bitter. No purpose no free will, consciousness is an illusion etc.. I feel sorry for those who haven't had a truly mystical, spiritual and profound experience.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot


I think he makes a very valid point.. Science is a belief system. It is a way that people choose to view the world.

And as for psychic pets they may very well be a reality. Being an animal lover and having had many furry friends over the years I can say without a shadow of a doubt they seem to know what you are up to. Even my dog that I have now knows when I am coming home even if it is at a random time and not routine.. I read his book (see below) and it is a fascinating read. And what intrigues me the most is that science cannot explain this phenomena. Why? Why can science not explain this.. And he does not just talk about it. He studies it, tries experiments and found that this phenomena is real and not just in the minds of the owners..

Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home And Other Unexplained Powers of Animals: An Investigation
By Rupert Sheldrake

Many people who have ever owned a pet will swear that their dog or cat or other animal has exhibited some kind of behavior they just can't explain. How does a dog know when its owner is returning home at an unexpected time? Filled with captivating stories and thought-provoking analysis, Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home is a groundbreaking exploration of animal behavior that will profoundly change the way we think about animals, and ourselves. After five years of extensive research involving thousands of people who own and work with animals, Sheldrake conclusively proves what many pet owners already know - that there is a strong connection between humans and animals that lies beyond present-day scientific understanding.

I doubt he is ignorant at all.. He is asking questions. Questions are good especially in science. IMHO I see science as being all theory. We do not truly know how the universe works we have just come up with ideas of logical and rational sensicality to fit our experiences of day to day life.. I do not know if it will ever be possible to truly understand how the universe works. Science is still young. People like Sheldrake are good for science. He will either be right or wrong. But at least he is asking questions instead of just accepting thats the way things are. Give him time and he may have evidence...

Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, ie by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.

However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.

Albert Einstein.

"Our ability to learn is only limited by our ability to Question." - Socrates

reply to post by BlueMule


s/f OP

Loved the video. I personally quite like Sheldrake. I think he does well to question science. How else can science ever evolve and move forward if it is never questioned or looked at. He makes a very valid point IMHO..

His research in his book on the: Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home And Other Unexplained Powers of Animals: An Investigation is fascinating. And guess what science cannot explain this phenomena. Why? Because science needs to move forward and evolve if it is to understand this phenomena. The way that science is at the moment cannot explain why animals have a seemingly psychic ability and can tell when their owner is coming home..

And it is not just this phenomena that is nonsensical to todays science...

Originally posted by fluff007

How does a dog know when its owner is returning home at an unexpected time?

Must be a psychic dog...I mean it couldn't be because the dog has excellent hearing and heard the car door slam in the driveway, right?

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Must be a psychic dog...I mean it couldn't be because the dog has excellent hearing and heard the car door slam in the driveway, right?

My goodness me.. What kind of idiot do you take me for. Do you really think I would be that ignorant. I have this book. And in the book he does research and studies with dogs, cats and their owners..

In his research and studies he made owners change their travel plans whilst observing the dog.
I.e. He would ask the owners to get a different mode of transport home or change their travels plans 30 min before they were due back. The dogs always seemed to know..

There was also a dog that seemed to know when its owner got on a plane to come back home...

I think you should read this book and then you can come back to me with a decent reply...

Look its only 14 pence..
www.amazon.co.uk...

PS was made redundant in 1993, and was subsequently unemployed. She was often away from home for hours at a time, and was no longer tied to any regular pattern of activity. Her parents did not usually know when she would be returning, but Jaytee still continued to anticipate her return. His reactions seemed to occur around the time she set off on her homeward journey. She usually travelled in her own car.

Our findings indicate that Jaytee's reactions cannot be explained in terms of routine, sounds of familiar vehicles or knowledge by PS's parents of her time of return. They suggest that Jaytee's reactions may well depend on an influence from PS herself that the dog detects in a manner currently unknown to science.

In Articles & Papers:
www.sheldrake.org...

There is no ebook sadly. But have a read of that. Most of the info in the book is on that link..

reply to post by BlueMule


He has been reading my posts on ATS. There is No Way he came up with all that on his own! lol

Look at my thread and how similar it is to what he is saying. Now, I'm just kidding about him reading my posts, of course, but his hypothesis is eerily similar to what I have came to know.

It's likely that energy's seemingly conscious behavior is only obvious when you know a little bit about everything, and as our basic understanding for all subjects increase, our reality's evident, yet widely unaccepted, nature is slowly becoming obvious to others.

Thanks for the vid, it's nice to see that other people starting to come to similar conclusions as me.

reply to post by Bedlam


"Is it possible they're nothing but wish fulfillment, and fantasy, and so therefore, don't exist and never did?"

Not in my experiences and in that regard there is every reason for me to conclude psi is a valid experience to some percentage of our population.

This opinion is unrelated to how the idea of a psychic is commerciallyapplied neither would such a venture interest me in any way. I have worked with people who were able to successfully apply remote viewing techniques and aid them in improving these abilities.

Part of my upbringing included spending several years living and being educated by an indigenous culture the basis of which, was due to my family background.

I guess you would say that informally I am a Shaman

To be clear the only real way to prove something scientifically is to test a population and what I am saying is that in no real way, has western science even come close to that type of accomplishment.

Furthermore, history is replete with incidences where materialisms best held beliefs of the time were wrong. With respect to recent history that matter of consciousness comes to mind, in relation to the cessation of a materialist agenda in respect to the treatment psychiatric disorders.


My impression is that without a more substantive effort the idea of shrubbery applies as well to purveyors of the conservative ethic.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Your response only confirms what he said. If it's so hard to measure an exact value it may possibly be because the value is fluctuating. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it may be. And it's always good to look into these possibilities... nothing is gained by having a closed mind which is shut off to everything except those things you want to believe.

Your response to fluff007 regarding the "psychic dogs" is highly ignorant and egotistical. The research conducted in this field measures the activity of the dog long before the owner arrives homes. They also make the owner drive home in different vehicles to account for the fact the dog may know the sound of the car engine.

Because your mind is so closed you cannot fathom any possibility that telepathy may be possible... you overlook the fact the brain may have small electromagnetic receptors capable of interpreting the brain waves emitted at the speed of light by other living entities. You don't think your radio receiver is magical do you?

Or what about the well documented and researched phenomena of the brain's ability to alter the behavior of quantum RNG's? Or the well researched ability of people to sense events in the very near future? If you don't believe this I suggest you start doing some hardcore research, it's all out there for you to find.

There are some other obscure areas of research which science cannot explain as of yet. But one day science will explain these things. They are not mystical or magical phenomena, they are ill understood phenomena which we don't have a scientific mechanism for explaining yet. Stop being such a typical closed minded puritan of science.

It seems you are one who is affected by the science delusion.

Originally posted by Kashai
Not in my experiences and in that regard there is every reason for me to conclude psi is a valid experience to some percentage of our population.

But in my experiences, I've never seen anyone pull it off. These are both anecdotal data. If it could be demonstrated to work in some way that was replicable, it would be a Nobel. But it isn't.

This opinion is unrelated to how the idea of a psychic is commerciallyapplied neither would such a venture interest me in any way. I have worked with people who were able to successfully apply remote viewing techniques and aid them in improving these abilities.

It's a nice gating factor. If you can make it work, and make it work all the time, then it's got commercial value. If no one, NO ONE is really doing that, the likelihood is that it does NOT work.

Part of my upbringing included spending several years living and being educated by an indigenous culture the basis of which, was due to my family background.

I guess you would say that informally I am a Shaman

I am a realist.

To be clear the only real way to prove something scientifically is to test a population and what I am saying is that in no real way, has western science even come close to that type of accomplishment.

Oh, it's been tried. Unless you're asking for proof of a negative - prove it ISN'T true, in which case we need to discuss how proofs work.

Furthermore, history is replete with incidences where materialisms best held beliefs of the time were wrong. With respect to recent history that matter of consciousness comes to mind, in relation to the cessation of a materialist agenda in respect to the treatment psychiatric disorders.

History is also replete with people fooling themselves.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Because your mind is so closed you cannot fathom any possibility that telepathy may be possible... you overlook the fact the brain may have small electromagnetic receptors capable of interpreting the brain waves emitted at the speed of light by other living entities. You don't think your radio receiver is magical do you?

You don't emit brain waves as propagating radio waves. That's sort of a problem with 'psi as radio'. Also, we've got DANDY ways to spot that sort of emission.

Or what about the well documented and researched phenomena of the brain's ability to alter the behavior of quantum RNG's? Or the well researched ability of people to sense events in the very near future? If you don't believe this I suggest you start doing some hardcore research, it's all out there for you to find.

Are you talking about PEAR? It was interesting but didn't really prove anything.

There are some other obscure areas of research which science cannot explain as of yet. But one day science will explain these things. They are not mystical or magical phenomena, they are ill understood phenomena which we don't have a scientific mechanism for explaining yet. Stop being such a typical closed minded puritan of science.

I agree wholeheartedly, however, I do not agree with the adjunct "...therefore, magic!" as the punchline. Yes, there are lots of things to learn. But you can't say that proves that everything is possible. That's a big ATS thing, I know.

reply to post by Bedlam

You don't emit brain waves as propagating radio waves. That's sort of a problem with 'psi as radio'.

Brainwaves are ultra-low frequency electromagnetic waves caused by firing of the neurons. Moving electrons emit EM waves, and our brains are driven by electrical impulses like a normal computer, thus our brains emit electromagnetic radiation like a computer. Radio waves are electromagnetic waves as well, the only difference is in the frequency. I used the example of radio waves because that is the most common type of EM frequency used for wireless transmission and it's easier to understand that example. The basic principle is the same.

Yes, there are lots of things to learn. But you can't say that proves that everything is possible.

Where exactly did I say anything is possible?

EDIT: to add a source backing what I'm saying:

Radio waves and brain waves are both forms of electromagnetic radiation—waves of energy that travel at the speed of light. The difference between brain waves, radio waves, and other electromagnetic waves (such as visible light, X-rays and Gamma rays) lies in their frequency—that is, how often the waves peak and trough in a second.

Radio waves, which include radio and other wireless transmission signals, as well as other natural signals in the same frequency, peak and trough at between 50 and 1000 megahertz—that’s between 50 million and one billion oscillations per second.

The human brain also emits waves, like when a person focuses her attention or remembers something. This activity fires thousands of neurons simultaneously at the same frequency generating a wave—but at a rate closer to 10 to 100 cycles per second.

engineering.mit.edu...

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

If it's so hard to measure an exact value it may possibly be because the value is fluctuating. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it may be. And it's always good to look into these possibilities...

Agreed. And they have been looked into.

Scientific investigation of paranormal phenomena commenced in the nineteenth century. The Society for Psychical Research was founded in 1882. It investigated such phenomena as hauntings, clairvoyance, 'apparitions of the living' and precognition, to all of which its researchers were broadly sympathetic. Despite this, the SPR was unable to come to any verifiable conclusions regarding the operations of the phenomena they were investigating.

The Victorian era was the heyday of all things psychic, metaphysical and spiritualistic. Madame Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy and the source of many of today's New Age superstitions, had a huge following and was even endorsed by a team of SPR investigators. Other leading Victorians, such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes, were believers in and propagandists for the paranormal. Many of them carried out or funded psychic research efforts to prove their beliefs. All failed.

Research into the paranormal has continued up to the present day. Perhaps the most famous name in the field is that of J.B. Rhine, whose studies at Duke University in the 1930s appeared to produce very significant results. However, these have never been replicated, casting doubt on the original research and on Rhine's objectivity. Interestingly, he worked with the Boston Society for Psychical Research before he went to Duke, and his scientific training was actually in botany. An institute he founded, now known as the Rhine Research Center Institute for Parapsychology, continues his line of work to this day—and still has precious little to show for it.

Paranormal, parapsychological, psychic, spiritual... whatever you want to call it, the field of non-physical phenomena related to human consciousness has been diligently and extensively researched for—as our friend squiz states—140 years. Or more. Doubtless he will be able to furnish you with many more examples. Yet none of this research—none of it—of it has yielded meaningful results; the research statistics have to be massaged energetically to show any effects at all.

How much longer do we keep looking into these 'possibilities' before the lack of positive results leads us to conclude that we are plumbing a dry hole?

Nothing is gained by having a closed mind which is shut off to everything except those things you want to believe.

Quite right. I hope the people on this thread who have closed their minds to any possibility that the world and consciousness are purely material phenomena will take note of your wise observation.

reply to post by Astyanax

Originally posted by Astyanax

If it's so hard to measure an exact value it may possibly be because the value is fluctuating. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it may be. And it's always good to look into these possibilities...

Agreed. And they have been looked into.

What does paranormal research have to do with big G or anything I've said thus far (apart from the topic of telepathy)? You and Bedlam are misinterpreting my statements quite a lot. Read what I said again without the preconceptions of what it is I'm saying.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Because your mind is so closed you cannot fathom any possibility that telepathy may be possible...

False.

I'd actually like to see telepathy or other psi scientifically proven by science because I think it would be pretty cool.

So I'm not closed minded at all about the possibility, and I still hold some hope that maybe, someday a scientific study will demonstrate it's possible.

However I have a lot of statistics background so I know how to interpret the scientific findings in a deeper way than people without such a background in statistics. So far all the claims I've sen of psi proof involve cherry picking data, or errors in statistical interpretation.

I can similarly provide a false proof about gambling in Las Vegas. The casinos make sure the odds are stacked in their favor, but pick a game like blackjack where the house advantage is lower. It's possible 10 players could collectively be up against the house at some point. In fact statistics shows this can happen. So I can just stop the study and claim that it's possible to beat the odds against the casinos, and I could even hypothesize they used some kind of psi to do it. But in larger studies and larger sample sizes, the house will win, so that statistical result, while predictable, is not representative of the true statistics which takes larger samples and more trials.

This is the kind of problem I see in a lot of psi research. Even one of the most respected psi researchers, Dr. Bem, says that his study can't stand on its own, and must be subjected to successful replications by others to validate it. And have his positive psi findings been replicated, as he insists they must be to demonstrate their validity?