How is it really "free will"

i wanted this in a seperate post since it is a bit more aggressive and want to make the disclaimer that i understand that, but truly have no malintent.

the most simplistic way to put it is either;

God says, "Even though all men deserve death and are selfish by nature, if you choose Me you will live and if you don't choose Me, you will die."

or;

God says, "No man is worthy, but some I will love and give life/faith according to my good pleasure and in order to make My power known. Conversely, some will perish. The fate of all is death without Me anyway."



Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

daved

It is "Free Will" because you can choose to believe and trust God or you can choose not to. We are not robots and God wants us to serve him out of a heart of love. It is very similar to a marraige relationship. The woman "CHOOSE'S" a man because she adores him, thinks he's kind, believes he will take good care of her, feels she can trust him with her deepest secrets and most of all "Feels Love For Him"

In the same likeness God dersires us to do the same in reference to him
Our other choice is Satan, and we all know what is children do.

God lets us choose whatsoever way we will, but he also reveals to us the consequences of our decisions.

Originally posted by JoeyC
Christianities 'free will' idea sounds more like slavery to me- Act as i have told you to or you will go to hell.......

It is because you were taught that way ... You were taught what you can't do insted of what you can do ... It is just a method of teaching and you were taught the normal way of explaining anything if anything has rules you learn what you can't do not what you can do. Try thinking about what god allows you to do ... I never drank or curse 19 years of my life and I was happy all the time .. now that I curse and drink I am hardly ever happy and even when I am happy it just feels fake alot of the times. ...

Originally posted by Dasher
i wanted this in a seperate post since it is a bit more aggressive and want to make the disclaimer that i understand that, but truly have no malintent.

the most simplistic way to put it is either;

God says, "Even though all men deserve death and are selfish by nature, if you choose Me you will live and if you don't choose Me, you will die."

or;

God says, "No man is worthy, but some I will love and give life/faith according to my good pleasure and in order to make My power known. Conversely, some will perish. The fate of all is death without Me anyway."



Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

daved

What is this /??? Anyone can pull stuff from teh bible and say it means something ... What is the bible anyways a guideline to living or a guide to help us out on earth. I mean think about it it says not to eat Catfish or fish that used to have smooth bellies b/c they are bottom feeders and used to before Farm Raised Catfish those fish just laid in crap all day eating ... ... They carreid the diaseases ... but now it is not liek that of course ... but that is what it was abotu back then .. also ... pig was back for you .. along with chicken .. if not cooked good .. hence ...

I made a topic a while ago, about how we dont even have choice. This entirely negates free will.

I simply don't understand how a Christian can USE a quote from Saul of Tarsus and expect the rest of us to accept it as if it were coming from the Christ himself.

What Yeshua said was: "It's what comes out of a man's mouth that defiles him [his soul]--not what he puts into his mouth."

Yet, if we want to be healthy, it useful to follow some rules of thumb: "Don't eat polluted seafood or fish."

Duh.

The Law provides Kashrut, Mikvah, Niddah, Shabbos and Tithe to keep us healthy and prosperous.

Since the death of Yeshua, all that ethnic cleansing and stoning to death for victimless crimes can be thrown in the trashcan. WHY? Killing doesn't work for good outcomes, in the long-run.

What is "appropriate" is what is "safe" to do, in the long-run.

Let's be sane about lifestyle, so we don't sicken ourselves and the planet; but on the other hand, let's not make fetishes out of our everyday activities.

Come on! Use some common sense. Results and OUTCOMES are just as important as the dry ink on the pages of old books--at LEAST as important!

Justice is about outcomes. Fairness is about Process. Let's learn to deal with both these tools to prosper as many as possible--not set obstacles in the way of people.

I get so tired of the pissing and moaning about "thought crimes."

LadyV ... YOU ARE AMAZING TO START OFF WITH !!! I am not trying to call you dumb ... or anything. But what I was trying to show you is that you have heard alot about Gods. And I am sure you can learn about all of these fake gods that they made up. Hence they have everything figured out with it ... B/C they made them up. But the problem with our mind and the REAL TRUE GOD is that we didn't make him up we can't even imagine him. We can't imagine anything that has to do with heaven. There are going to be colors that we have never seen. What colors are they going to be .. ??? I don't know I cannot imagine another color can you ??? Even though we see other colors all the time. We do not name a color or find out why that particle gives off that radiation or COLOR TO OUR EYE. But anyways .. I am truly sorry if I offended you LadyV ... That was not my point my point is that can you understand God ? I cannot, nor will I be able to untill I can sit down with him and talk. AND sense that will not happen untill I die or some far off place in the future. I will not be able to understand him. Why did he flood the earth I do not know ??? Why did he start off with Just Adam and Eve and if that is true are we alll INbread ??? If we are all inbread why can we not breed together now? Where did all teh colors come from ?? My guess is this one word christians are scared of lol EVOLUTION @!!! OH god ... then they have to learn where did god come from if he were the beginning and the end. How did he make the whole universe in 6 days ... and he is letting people die. ... ?? Why would someone that is made out of love let someone DIE ???? Maybe people do not die after they leave this body ?? Anyone ever die and come back ????

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by bet555
Who do you think you are if you are trying to understand GOD ????

I am trying to learn and expand my knowledge here.....do you have problems with that? I ask, and yes, I want to understand.....I have always studied religions, but there are several questions that I just don't grasp and I want to....I am not the type of person to just say..ok...I won't question....that's ignorance at it's most high!

How is it "Not Free Will?" Is there any decisions that god is making you make ???? Is god influencing any of you to do anything ?

It's utterly amazing to me that people take the words of Saul of Tarsus--who contradicted Yeshua Ben Joseph all over the place--and make them equal to our Savior and Messiah's words.

Never will I do that.

Paul objected to Yeshua's utilizing women in His ministry; he directed women to be silent and keep their heads covered. Yeshua did no such thing.
Paul objected to Yeshua's saying, "I come not to bring peace but division"; saying instead, "Let you all be in agreement."
Paul objected to Yeshua's saying, "Pay what is Caesar's to Caesar; but what is God's to God"; but said instead: "Let all be in subjection to the superior authorities."
Paul talked in 23 places about "mysteries." Yeshua said: "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free." He never spoke of mysteries.

Now, for the sayings of Yeshua in John, yes, we have these and we can apply them or not. That is our FREEWILL CHOICE.

Just going to throw in a bit here. My initial fear of Christianity was changing my identity. I thought if I accepted God, I'd have to go around every moment doing what He said and doing what He wants. What I found though was I was liberated from a lot of things that were holding me down like - fear, low self-esteem, overly self-conciousness, hunger for material things, embarrassment, rejection, etc. With the negative factors removed, I can really truly be myself. It feels good! In doing so I can focus more on helping out other people and having fun. Wow, it fell right in line with God's agenda too! I am me and God approves. Does it get any better than that?

Originally posted by saint4God
holding me down like - fear, low self-esteem, overly self-conciousness, hunger for material things, embarrassment, rejection, etc. With the negative factors removed, I can really truly be myself. It feels good! In doing so I can focus more on helping out other people and having fun. Wow, it fell right in line with God's agenda too! I am me and God approves. Does it get any better than that?

I'm glad it woeked out that way for you! Gotta be tough living with all that!

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by LadyV
Makes no sense to me.

At one time I was going to be a priest but I just never developed a taste for altar boys

Seriously I was but the more I studied the more none of it made sense. No disrespect but any religion seems weird once you sit down and LOOK at it.

I say I dont believe but that is not really the truth the truth is I just dont know. I believe in something I just dont think we can understand it.

FREE will is the freedom to choose what we think is right or wrong - but it's more than that. It is choosing to do something because we really want to not because we are conforming to; to accept the consequences of what we chose. For instance if we chose to kill someone - there are consequences to killing a person not just for the person who does it, but for the effects of family members, that person's like that could have been, etc. etc. I believe that God wants us to get to a point to where we WANT to do what is right because it is right, not because it feels right at the time - make any sense at all? Sometimes I am not good at articulating things. Free will is not just a biblical thing ya know. It is a life thing - am I right?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Yes, God has a plan for your life, a mission He would like for you to accept. You have the coice to not accept it, you have the choice to not even accept Him. If you choose not to accept the mission, he'll just have another follower accomplish it. He is no respecter of persons.
There, you have a satisfactory answer. Accept it or not. Again, you have a choice.

Good god I am apalled! You people are thinking only to the extent you want to get the answer you want. Think further.

For example god created EVERYTHING. In this case, he created the plan for your life. He created every choice you make and every outcome of your choice. He made you choose what you did.

Consider when one says "It happened for a reason". Well this isn't logically possible unless god made a person decide to do something. In essence god stole one's free choice in order to make another thing happen. So: Either god has no plans for anyone but we want to think he does because we are conceded, OR free will never existed, it was man's creation.

AND Another thing! In the event that God condones free will, his creed is, you may live however you want, but if you don't live how I want you to, you will burn and live in torment for all eternity. So in essence he is saying do what I tell you to or die. You may have free will but god doesn't want you to practice it, now does he?

*Disclaimer: As a non-believer in fairy tales and such, I don't believe in god in the omnipotent sense*

[edit on 2-11-2004 by iceofspades]

Originally posted by saint4God
Just going to throw in a bit here. My initial fear of Christianity was changing my identity. I thought if I accepted God, I'd have to go around every moment doing what He said and doing what He wants. What I found though was I was liberated from a lot of things that were holding me down like - fear, low self-esteem, overly self-conciousness, hunger for material things, embarrassment, rejection, etc. With the negative factors removed, I can really truly be myself. It feels good! In doing so I can focus more on helping out other people and having fun. Wow, it fell right in line with God's agenda too! I am me and God approves. Does it get any better than that?

Yeah I understand. When my brother told me Santa didn't exist I went through years of thinking, highs and lows. I was depressed and anorexic. Then I learned again the glorious power of Him. He filled my heart with warmth and my stocking with jelly-beans. They tasted so good! I too am myself and Santa approves. It doesn't get any better than that.

Personally I see the same ignorance here that I see in the political threads. If it doesn't conform to what you believe, it's not worthy. So why the dialog, seems no one is listening.

Originally posted by Dasher
the most simplistic way to put it is either;

God says, "Even though all men deserve death and are selfish by nature, if you choose Me you will live and if you don't choose Me, you will die."

or;

God says, "No man is worthy, but some I will love and give life/faith according to my good pleasure and in order to make My power known. Conversely, some will perish. The fate of all is death without Me anyway."

daved

so the way it seems, when preached, is that you can believe and follow his desenated path, OR you are evil incarnate and not doing as it is said means death and such.

so you have 'free will' to do whater as long as you conduct your life within his scope of duties set for you... sounds like 'well, you can have some ice cream if you do you homework and are good'

church organizations have corrupted to words of god for 2 thousand years, if you chose to believe in god be it on your own terms and not b/c they tell you that if you dont you will die/go to hell/whatever. i think this totally desecrates the whole concept of spirituality

Besides a couple of other things in the Christian religion I can't seem to understand...What's this "free will" thing? How is it free will!? You are free to chose, but if you do, you get in trouble? How is that free will? Isn't that still a means of controlling what you think is free will? Makes no sense to me.

As i stated in another thread: "Free Will" and "Determinism" go hand in hand.

Free will falls to it's knees under the shadow of determinism and causation, in fact, free will would have been a cause of a necessitated event; but, justly, free will and determinism can be copulated together to produce, as Thomas Hobbes coined it, Compatibilism: Free will and Determinism do not clash, but are in-cognito, or so to speak.

Example,

A necessitated precedent implores me to react; Death has come to my ill wife, of cancer, not even God could heal, in the heat of emotional unresolve, i conclude that the town mayor is at fault and must be justly laid to rest in light of vengence of my loving wife, now passed. Now, as one assumes, sweet vengence partakes patient and carefull timing, utter cunning, and devine providence. 3 days pass, and on the night of the full moon, i slash the throat of the Mayor and declare my wife avenged.

As we see with the scenerio above, I had time and "free will" to think things through, and, as we see above, these events were all caused by a prior precedent: the death of my wife. Free will would simply implore good judgement and right action, but, determism was the visercal cause of the chain of events.

Deep

Originally posted by bet555
How is it "Not Free Will?" Is there any decisions that god is making you make ???? Is god influencing any of you to do anything ?

its not the matter of god its the religious saying well you dont accept god, your going to hell, and they totally state that if at all you question anything stated in the bible well hell is waiting... is that free will. it is restricting intellectual thought. its okay to question principles, you just have to be open to possibility that you are wrong

[edit on 3-11-2004 by Franki]

its not the matter of go its the religious saying well you dont accept god, your going to hell, and they totally state that if at all you question anything stated in the bible well hell is waiting... is that free will. it is restricting intellectual thought. its okay to question principles, you just have to be open to possibility that you are wrong

Does a lab rat have the ability to freely choose what path will lead him to the cheese?

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Does a lab rat have the ability to freely choose what path will lead him to the cheese?

Deep

if religion is the maze and god is the cheese then, yes. there are more than one path towards god/spitituality.

does church have the ability to prescribe redemption?