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How is it really "free will"

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posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:16 PM
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If you doubt that any human can reach out and grab a TRUE idea based on Cosmic Principles and not merely on human existence--

then, what you are telling me is, all humans are merely clever animals.

I grew up in a family in which nobody could even conceive of Higher Consciousness. Materialism was it. They all died.

My spirit, spreading out and enveloping this material world, can still locate their consciousnesses, even though they are dead.

A lot of people can do that. Those people are called "telepaths." Or they're called, "clair audients" or "clair voyants." They see and hear beyond the human senses.

Well, there must be something out there, if people are hearing and seeing it. If dreams are the topics of songs, of inventions, and of relationships, then there must be something >else< going on, besides where we physically ARE.

I believe the earth is built like an onion, with layers called "surfaces." The highest surface, made up of lightest particles, is called "heaven." The medial surface, made up of ordinary matter, is called "middle earth." And the densest surface, made up of the most dense elements in their most dense compounds, is called "Hell."

"Hell" is where the brimstone mountains form the planet's backbone; where fire is always a problem; where Satan rules with an iron hand by lies and deceit; and where every human is tormented by "what might have been" and "if only" until the very day of their physical death.

Free will is absolute in Heaven [Astral Plane] because the physics of matter enable a "person" there to materialize any idea that occurs to them--much like a holodeck.

Free will is conditional on the Physical Plane because some cause-and-effect relationships--particularly, mass, time and location--are stable. Yet, miracles occur by collapsing Time.

Free will is nearly impossible in Hell, due to the behavioral limits of DNA-retrograde-compression, environment, and the automatically corrupted society which Satan perpetually dominates at the Hell level, which is >here




posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:32 PM
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Firstly, to address the question about Gods ability to pre'know' all human decisions.

God is all seeing and all powerful. He knows every single choice that a human could possibly take, and he knows all the outcomes of those choices. He knows everything from the beginning to the end. Just because he knows everything, doesnt mean it is a means of control. He simply knows.

For example, a parent that tells her child not to play with matches or they could burn them. She knows what is best for the child, and knows that sooner or later her child will play with matches, however, she will not take free choice away from her child. Understand??!!??

The same way, God has given us the Bible as a guide on how best to live our lives. It is up to us to choose to live our lives like this or not.

Some people have stated that there is no choice because if you don't believe in God you will be destroyed.

Think of it this way. God does not want to destroy anyone. As a matter of fact he loves everyone A LOT!

The problem is, that most people dont listen or believe anything that he sais.. they 'know better'. So what they do is find ways of killing each other better, ways of perverting what was once innocent (sex, child porn etc), they destroy the earth, they are greedy.. so on and so on and so on. The truith of the matter is, if left to their own devices, humans would wipe each other out.. and in any event, they are not responsible enough to look after the earth and it would be uninhabitable sooner or later....

God is saying, 'Look, I can offer you a way out of this, it is up to you to take it or not, but there is going to come a time where the world is going to get so bad, I am going to have to do something about it, because it would be inhumane to keep it going in this state'...

Think of it as a cancer in a human body. A doctor has to remove it in order for a life to live. The same as sin, it needs to be removed for life to be able to continue.

Just my humble opinion...



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:40 PM
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One is not free to make a choice one does not know exists.

More profoundly, since we are products of our environments, the criteria we use for decisions must derive from and are therefore expressions of our environments as well.

Since life as a conscious being is effectively a series of decisions, the implication is that we are really no more free than our environments permit us to be.

Chris Reeve was not free to get up and walk around after he became a quadraplegic. A blind man is not free to see the stars at night.

Most people have more freedom than they think they do, but by being unaware of it, their lack of awareness becomes the very thing which enslaves them. Conversely, most people have less freedom than they think they do, because the decisions they make are based on criteria over which they have little or no control.

For example, you are "free" to stick a knife in your eye, but will probably choose not to because it is painful. The fact that it is painful is something over which you have no control, yet is a determining factor in deciding not to poke out your eye.

Every other choice we make is a less extreme variant of the same thing: circumstances beyond our control determine how we make decisions. It is hard to find anything resembling true freedom in light of this.

All in all, an interesting paradox.

As best I can tell, we may have illusions of Freewill, but do not really possess it.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25
God is saying, 'Look, I can offer you a way out of this, it is up to you to take it or not, but there is going to come a time where the world is going to get so bad, I am going to have to do something about it, because it would be inhumane to keep it going in this state'...


In other words, God created an existence for men that provides only one choice that could be considered desirable. To suggest that an eternity of torment is somehow a desirable or valid alternative is a very cruel jest.

A more concise way of putting it is this: Worship me or suffer forever.

The god which makes this offer has a rather puzzling concept of "freedom".



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:57 PM
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I personally think that the concept of a "burning" Hell is a creation of the ancient Catholic church. Has nothing to do with the Bible.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:59 PM
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Schmick25, you took the words right out of my mouth. I like you already.

Majic, it's NOT "Worship me or suffer forever."

It's "Learn how to live by harmless MY WAY [as God] or remain so ignorant and complacent that you will have NO USE and NO PLACE in My Creation.

Human PREDATORS preying on other humans simply have no functional USE in Space Travel. They are destructive to the environment in which they operate. They are destructive to relationships. They are destructive to social order. They are even destructive to their own families.

Human PREDATION must have limits and boundaries. This is why God provides humanity with experiences, so they can GROK THAT.

You know?

Chai



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Majic
One is not free to make a choice one does not know exists.

More profoundly, since we are products of our environments, the criteria we use for decisions must derive from and are therefore expressions of our environments as well.

Since life as a conscious being is effectively a series of decisions, the implication is that we are really no more free than our environments permit us to be.

Chris Reeve was not free to get up and walk around after he became a quadraplegic. A blind man is not free to see the stars at night.

Most people have more freedom than they think they do, but by being unaware of it, their lack of awareness becomes the very thing which enslaves them. Conversely, most people have less freedom than they think they do, because the decisions they make are based on criteria over which they have little or no control.

For example, you are "free" to stick a knife in your eye, but will probably choose not to because it is painful. The fact that it is painful is something over which you have no control, yet is a determining factor in deciding not to poke out your eye.

Every other choice we make is a less extreme variant of the same thing: circumstances beyond our control determine how we make decisions. It is hard to find anything resembling true freedom in light of this.

All in all, an interesting paradox.

As best I can tell, we may have illusions of Freewill, but do not really possess it.


Hi Majic,

I like your ponderings here. But one thing that has been addressed before is consequences of our free will or 'choices'. Sure I can stick a knife in my eye, and it will hurt like hell. The consequences are that I will be blind. The reason why it hurts is because of the bodies built in protective mechanisms.. 'ouch dont do it your hurting me'.

One thing I would like to comment on the Christian perspective is that humans do not do the judging at the end of the day, it is God.

You bring up the interest concept of only having a choice of 'what you currently know'. I have a firm belief that there will not only be Christians in heavens but a lot of other nationalities and peoples from generations and cultures.

My two cents worth... once again



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25
I have a firm belief that there will not only be Christians in heavens but a lot of other nationalities and peoples from generations and cultures.


There is no Heaven for those who can only understand suffering.

I tried to be a good Christian for 25 years before ultimately realizing that Christianity was conceived in and is a path of Darkness. I am, in other words, an "Apostate Christian", for which there is allegedly an extra special form of punishment prepared.

I cannot tolerate the idea of an eternity of "happiness" tainted by the knowledge of eternal misery for so many of my brothers and sisters in spirit.

I cannot understand what kind of person would be happy in Heaven if his or her mother was known to be burning forever in a lake of fire, and I would not want to spend eternity in the presence of people so shockingly devoid of compassion for one another. Robots would provide better company than that.

Also, I could never tolerate the presence of a god who would consider such a thing to be Heaven, nor others who agree with such a being. A being which rules through fear and torment is not a god, but a demon.

The "Heaven" described by Christians would be Hell for me. Thus the ultimate reason I could not be a Christian is the fact that its goal is undesirable to me.

I suppose I at least have that much Freewill.


[edit on 11/1/2004 by Majic]



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 07:47 PM
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Do you honestly believe, God HATES you for your reasoning?

Do you honestly believe, it is your THOUGHTS that judge against you; or perhaps, is it behavior that makes us Law-abiding or Law-Less?

You sound healthy to me.

I think it's your concept of God--stuck in old dogma--that's unhealthy. But I have no doubt, your rejecting a vengeful God has also affected your BEHAVIOR in a way that is positive and hope-full.

Maybe people riddled with DOUBTS aren't so bad, after all? I think not. A person riddled with doubts can be characterized as "meek," After all, they eschew ALL COMMITMENTS out of the fear that they will fail themselves.

So maybe "Heaven" isn't a good place for us who eschew all commitments and Covenants. Maybe "earth" is where we belong. Can that be "bad"?

Hardly. I'm one of these, too. Heaven would bore and stifle me to death.

Delighted to make your acquaintance, Majik

Chai



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 07:50 PM
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This topic has been on my mind a lot lately. I married into a family which holds to the doctrines of the Primitive Baptist Christian faith.

Those doctrines are absolute predestination and the election of a predestined people for eternal life.

I've been struggling with my convictions and often find myself talking in circles.

First off, where in the Bible does it say that you have a choice? Where does it say we have free will. I have searched for twenty years and have not found the definitive answer to those questions. I searched because I was raised in a Methodist church and every Sunday there was a call to the altar to choose/accept the Lord, Jesus Christ as my savior. I never felt that calling and wondered what I was missing.

Upon meeting my father-in-law for the first time, after the general chit chat concluded, our conversation soon turned to religion. (I know you should never discuss religion and politics when meeting someone for the first time and I accomplished both in less than an hour. It is a wonder my spouse ever married me.) My father-in-law asked me to show him where this idea of choosing to be saved was in the Bible.

But if we didn't have free will or a choice why was "satan" around to tempt us. Predestination means that the Lord knows which path we are going to take before we are even born, so is there even such a thing as "free will".



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by iceofspades

Originally posted by paperclip


Same with God. He sees all the roads we can take and he sees the end of each road. But it is still you who makes the decision where to go.


Wait wait wait...I thought God made everything, didn't he? If he did, then he created his plan for your life. He knew what was going to happen. So, God created your choice. Still, no one has produced a satisfactory answer.


Yes, God has a plan for your life, a mission He would like for you to accept. You have the coice to not accept it, you have the choice to not even accept Him. If you choose not to accept the mission, he'll just have another follower accomplish it. He is no respecter of persons.
There, you have a satisfactory answer. Accept it or not. Again, you have a choice.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 08:10 PM
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You argue that hell is a place of evil torment that lasts forever.

See my other thread that 'hell is Bogus!!'.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 08:13 PM
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The God Of Hatred


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Do you honestly believe, God HATES you for your reasoning?


It depends on the “God”. The Christian god is reputed to do just that, depending on who you ask.

I don't think any god worthy of being called “God” would hate anyone. The only true “God” I am aware of is Totality: All Things Without Exception, and I doubt that is the same as the Christian god.

At least, they seem to have very different ways of doing things.

Mind Control


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Do you honestly believe, it is your THOUGHTS that judge against you; or perhaps, is it behavior that makes us Law-abiding or Law-Less?


Again, it depends on who is doing the judging. The Christian god is alleged to judge us on the basis of our thoughts as well as our actions.

I’m not sure about the second part of your question, but will guess that you are referring to a concept in Judaism that we are judged by our deeds. As best I can tell, no overt judgment is needed, but rather justice is built into the system.

In other words, sin tends to punish itself. In fact, one could accurately define sin as that which causes harm to the sinner.

If Only You Knew


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
You sound healthy to me.


An uncommon misconception which will no doubt pass in time.


Unclaimed Deities Department


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
I think it's your concept of God--stuck in old dogma--that's unhealthy. But I have no doubt, your rejecting a vengeful God has also affected your BEHAVIOR in a way that is positive and hope-full.


Let’s be clear about our terms: The Christian god is not my god, and in fact I am working my way out of the habit of capitalizing the word “god” when it refers to the Christian deity, because it is not my god.

I see no compelling evidence that the god described by Christians has any meaningful connection to that which is “positive and hope-full”, but of course that depends on what you consider those things to be.

Fear, Uncertainty And…


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Maybe people riddled with DOUBTS aren't so bad, after all? I think not. A person riddled with doubts can be characterized as "meek," After all, they eschew ALL COMMITMENTS out of the fear that they will fail themselves.


Doubts are a form of fear. Fear indicates some sort of ignorance, the ultimate form of which is ignorance of who we really are.

Who we really are is the question humanity finds most compelling, and most troubling. Religions (including Science) were created by men to answer precisely this question.

None of them have successfully answered it.

Now And Zen


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
So maybe "Heaven" isn't a good place for us who eschew all commitments and Covenants. Maybe "earth" is where we belong. Can that be "bad"?

Hardly. I'm one of these, too. Heaven would bore and stifle me to death.


“Where we belong” can be an interesting question to ponder. For my part, I am confident that we belong precisely where we are right now -- and nowhere else -- forever.

Of course, “where we are right now” changes over time.

Meeting And Greeting


Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Delighted to make your acquaintance, Majic


Likewise! You post interesting things, and that is a virtue in my system of morality.



Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Chai


Shalom.


Edit: shmick25, your point about my “eyeball” example is a good one, and I considered it while posting, but was too lazy to try to find a less ambiguous illustration. Sometimes it’s impractical to hold a post until perfect, but hopefully the underlying point gets through anyway -- which seems to have happened.



[edit on 11/1/2004 by Majic]



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 08:28 PM
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First, my thoughts on God...He is not complicated He is intricate. (we will hear debates from Webster on that).
He DOES want everyone to understand his words if you have eyes that can see, and ears that can hear. You have to really WANT to understand it, then it is really much easier to grasp. I think we are thinking in the terms of what we are used to, example: reading a good novel. But we rather need to think like getting our PhD. for example, some of those books are going to be very difficult and take much more time to really understand. But in the end, what is the difference between the person who reads the novels and the person that obtains their PhD. The reward is worth it!

Anyway, free will....your choice.....whatever you feel is right. The big "picture" here is that the earth is a school, lessons to be learned, love to be found, faith to be learned, period! This is the school or hard knocks!

I have found that God makes our lessons much more challenging than our parents ever did for us! But our reward for all of our hard work is an amazing eternity.

No we dont get in trouble when we use our free will, WE LEARN.

Which brings me to my most debatable question. Why are we trying to live to be 120!!!! Are we all crazy. Our instinct for survival has now gone overboard. Learn our lessons, that should take 1 - 70 years, then GO HOME (Heaven) be judged on what we have learned (report card, lol) then decide what we need to come back and learn that we did not learn this lifetime, again it will be our free will to choose.

Remember the He knows every hair on your head thing. We can not possibly comprehend God, so quit trying. Just trust Him because in reality we are comparable to ants (if that) in relation to God and his power.

If you think about eternity, what can you really do but to trust God. He promised it. I dont know about you but I am trying darn hard to pass this test!

OK, now Im ready for the wolfs
(see another lesson for ME)



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 08:38 PM
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First off, where in the Bible does it say that you have a choice? Where does it say we have free will. I have searched for twenty years and have not found the definitive answer to those questions


I am not sure what verse it is, but you should be able to look it up online in Google. It goes something like this. 'Choose you this day who you will serve. As for me and my house, we will server the Lord'.

I am sure you all agree, 'choose' means that we have a choice. God or Satan. It is lightness or darkness. At the end of the day, they are absolutes; no shades of grey that exist today. (that rhymes hehe)

The very existance of such a diverse amount of opinions and thoughts on this forum is an excellent example of freedom of thought.

When satan tempted Jesus in the desert, he forced Jesus to make a choice. 'I will give you the whole world if you simply worship me' said the devil. Even Christ, God's son had the freedom of choice and rejected that which he knew was wrong.

I always like to think along these lines.. "the choices that we make today, will directly effect us in years to come".

Don't you think the guy dying with aids in the hospital would love to turn back time and make a few different decisions.. or possibly how a homeless bum is thankful to a passing stranger because he made the 'choice' to give him some food.

Choice.. powerful beyond belief...

Why is heaven a perfect place? Becuase it will contain people that had a choice and decided to believe in God. There will be nobody in heaven that does not want to be there: that would not be honoring free will.

Will you still have knowledge of evil in heaven? yes, a memory of how it currupts and a recollection that you would never want to live with it again.

Will people that went against God suffer in hell for eternity? No, they will simple cease to exist. How can a God of love allow eternal torture? He wont.

Hope this answers some more questions..



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 08:39 PM
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Things like this turned me off from religion. If anything bad happens its free will. But wait. Why is it so many people claim that when a childs life is taken was because it was part of gods big plan. Free will doesn't matter there. Its nothing more than an excuse to cover serious holes in religion. You aren't allowed to question things either. You are just supposed to have "faith". Sounds too much too often like Santa Claus.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by Indy
Things like this turned me off from religion. If anything bad happens its free will. But wait. Why is it so many people claim that when a childs life is taken was because it was part of gods big plan. Free will doesn't matter there. Its nothing more than an excuse to cover serious holes in religion. You aren't allowed to question things either. You are just supposed to have "faith". Sounds too much too often like Santa Claus.


Actually, I tend to follow my spirituality more than any religion, I wont go into that now.

If anything bad happens it is a LESSON, the reason we are here.

My childs life was taken....hurts like Hell but I cannot tell you the rewards I have been given, the growth I have made (spiritually) and the love that I have found following this loss. There are no words to describe it (usually if that is the case it IS an act of God)

Only from what I understand from reading and a conclusion following many peoples beliefs is that EVEN A CHILD LEAVING IS FREE WILL! Before they were incarnated back to this relm of existence THEY CHOSE THE LESSONS THEY NEEDED/WANTED TO LEARN before they came! It has nothing to do with you or I, but them. When those lessons were learned whether it was for themself of somebody else, they GO HOME (Heaven)

I can guarantee you, God is working to bring ME home. I dont know when but through tons of pain and suffering I have learned so much about the way God works and Love. You see, in His "big plan" he knows me better than I know myself! He knew that the only way to teach me what I needed to learn was for my daughter to pass away. You see before she left I only focused on her and not me, my spiritual path was extremely poor.

You see God know our greatest treasures are also our greatest weeknesses when they are "taken away".

Put all of the pieces together and it is actually pretty simple to see. You just have to believe and trust Him with all your heart. I had no choice, following the loss of my daughter, He was all I had. Not trying to be funny but He did have a pretty good plan, too bad it was through so much pain that I finally learned!



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 09:28 PM
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Allow me an attempt to explain my perspective on free will. First, I have to address the issue of whether or not 'God' knows all and predestination.

Imagine a great, intricate web. Infinite. A web in which every decision made by each individual throughout this web of space/time, diverges and intertwines in an infinite number of directions, and each of those in turn, produce another set of infinite choices and outcomes. God, in the Christian sense (and more importantly, in my view), has prior knowledge of each and every decision, and consequence. That's not predestination, that's God knowing ahead of time the ultimate conclusion of any infinite number of a sequence of events. Whithin this framework, He devised His plan, and works whithin this great web to move individuals into His will.

As to free will.

'God', in His wisdom (and again, we're assuming a Christian standpoint here, for argument's sake), understands that by giving His creations a will of their own, He is putting their fate in their own hands. He also realizes that some of them will choose not to follow Him, because the sinful nature that entered His creation through the original sin (again, assuming a Christian perspective). Even though this is evident, He has given us a choice to make regarding eternity. Being a perfect divinity,( see this thread for this discussion) He cannot allow sinful nature in His presence, therefore He offers us an opportunity to choose to follow His direction for our lives, culminating in an eternal 'reward' of sorts. He does institute an eternal punishment for the rejection of God. Does this constitute a 'follow me or die' system? Well, if one chooses to see it that way, so be it. I cannot change a preconceived notion, only offer my opinion. In my opinion, because God loves us so much, He works throughout our lifetimes to provide opportunities for us to choose to follow Him. It is not forced, it has to be a choice. For those who are never offered this choice, there is a set of rules in place, by which that person's own moral code, and their adherance to that code, will determine their fate.

It is like raising a child. You teach your child what is right, and what is wrong. You may even set up standards, that if violated, would cause you to turn your child away. Even though you try with all your might, and teach and encourage as best you can, and provide opportunities for your child to choose the right path, your child may decide to ign ore you anyway. The child may choose to steal from you, go get hooked on drugs, reject you totally. Do you give that child all the rewards offered perhaps another sibling that followed your teachings and did what was right and respectful? No, you don't.

God loves us, and has done absolutely everything possible to provide the way to Him , nad the ultimate destiny we are all seeking. If we choose to reject His ways, then inevitably, as in life, there is a consequence for our action. Because He sees the great web of life and destiny, uses the various choices we make to find opportunities to help us choose the correct path. If we choose, after a lifetime of opportunity of attempting to help us find our way, we choose to reject the way anyway, we then choose, through our free will, our own eternal fate.

Campy, I know, but we are given the opportunity throughout our lives. It is our free choice that determines where we end up.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 09:47 PM
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Very nicely stated "Everlasting"

I think people try to figure out God's "intentions" when there is no way to do that. Like you said the web is so massive. We need to stop "playing God" and let Him do His work.

We may not understand it, or even feel like we like it right now, but honestly what choice do we have. Like the teenager with the parent, they dont like anything their parents do or say. I think striving to be righteous is wonderful. Everyone needs to stop reading between the lines and let Him enter your heart, there is where you will find your answers.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 10:47 PM
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new text and copied text from here;
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and here;
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Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

here we can establish that by nature we are carnal and did not choose our existance. further, we establish that the deliverance of Jesus is given and not taken as well.



Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

sanctification is the process of being set apart. therefore we can establish that before we had cognitive thought, we were already "elect." the arguement of foreknowledge gets brought up occassionally, but this is ignorance. here is why; foreknowledge in english is more accurately forethought, or pre-arrangement. it comes from the greek word prognosis. nowhere in scripture does it ever indicate that God takes into account any of man's actions. this would be contrary to a gift of faith based salvation and make it simply a works based salvation.



Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

let me put it in these terms. . . man is free to do what comes naturally. so unless man is his own creator, thusly defining his own nature, he is actually in bondage to the vanity of human character born into him by God.

now speaking of the spiritual process, an unsaved man is by nature carnal and selfish. therefore, unless there is divine intervention and a "gift of faith," he will never, by any means, correctly see the truth of God. also, to those who supress truth, as pharaoh, their life also is ordained by the Creator, but their end is not as glorious as those who are given "the gift."

Exd 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.



in regards to:
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

should we immediately forget all other scripture and claim victory for our own will? or is it possible that this scripture harmoniously follows with the understanding given by the rest of the word? what we can see in scripture is many requirements of man that are seemingly unnecessary. prayer for example.

1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

is God unaware of our needs? what a very sad God He would be if that was the case.

how about the inability to have faith?

Jhn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

if Jesus tells them plainly that they are not His sheep and therefore will not believe, why then does He continue to argue with those who try to murder Him?

Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, . . . . . . .

so prayer is required although it is not seemingly necessary, arguements are made although seemingly unnecessary, and a calling is made although seemingly unnecessary. to clarify further, although we are required to "choose" God when we are not able to according to the our own ability, we do choose according to the faith that is in us. the point would be made that since God ordained the beginning and end, He also ordained the means. therefore, prayer, choosing God, arguing, are all means to the end and not the end itself. to call the choosing of God the defining moment of salvation is a misnomer. it is really just a means of God's plan to expose and refine the gold who are His people.



but by all means, to those who claim to be authors of their own salvation/goodness, more power to you. as for myself, i must acknowledge my lack of strength and my over abundance of selfishness. in other words, please, let's not argue, this is just my take. i have nothing to prove, only things to share.

daved

ps. i have already spent 4 years fighting within myslef about this after finally accepting the truth of it. i know every arguement against it since i formerly despised it with all malice. if you have questions, ask away, otherwise, i will not reply to flames.




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