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How is it really "free will"

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posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:11 PM
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Besides a couple of other things in the Christian religion I can't seem to understand...What's this "free will" thing? How is it free will!? You are free to chose, but if you do, you get in trouble? How is that free will? Isn't that still a means of controlling what you think is free will? Makes no sense to me.




posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:15 PM
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I've asked myself this every day for my entire teenage life. I've asked my Theology teacher and he babbles on about how we shouldn't think we don't have free will because if we do, we will fall into a fatalistic lifestyle. Kind of backwards, don't you think? It seems no one can explain it. It's probably something sane people aren't supposed to understand.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:18 PM
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Well First Off, it is called free will b/c he is thier god. And if it wasn't free will they would all be in cages. Because to them he has the powree to do such a thing. Even though they screw up over and over and over throughout the bible and through out time. Even today you will see a pastor fall to some sinful thing. But you got something wrong LadyV ... You said "You are free to choose, but if you do, you get in trouble. How do you get in trouble ?? When have you heard of any christian saying I got drunk last night and now god doesn't want me to come into his presence. Nope, not true .. god's grace is everlasting and his mercy will be here forever how do I know b/c I used to talk with him on a daily bases but, here lately I just I guess my excuse is I don't have time. But really, I am just not close enough to him anymore to here him when he speaks to me. I used to always be listening for him now ... I am not listening to anything but myself.. saying I want this I want to feel good ... I want this girl ... I want this ... So I don't ever even think of what he wants or what is good for us and our relationship. Don't get me wrong me and god still have a relationship it is just not the one it used to be. LadyV .... if you ever want me to show you who god is for real you get a hold of me sometime and I will take you somewhere where you can feel him. =-) ...



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:18 PM
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It all boils down to "choice."

Free will = choice. We aren't robots.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
Makes no sense to me.


At one time I was going to be a priest but I just never developed a taste for altar boys


Seriously I was but the more I studied the more none of it made sense. No disrespect but any religion seems weird once you sit down and LOOK at it.

I say I dont believe but that is not really the truth the truth is I just dont know. I believe in something I just dont think we can understand it.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:23 PM
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Oh yeah .. also .. the question I have in my head .... Is "IF IT IS FREEWILL THEN HOW DOES GOD KNOW WHAT IS ALREADY GOING TO HAPPEN ???"

But then I think back on everything and I think, If god is god and he made me we can't understand this. How are we suppose to understand him ?
How he made us and how he made the universe. IN SEVER DAYS ??? Or six if you don't count the REST TIME !!! And god had to rest ... it says it in the bible ... I thought he was god ... He must have made the universe those seven days or something?? Who knows ???

I hate people who ask questions like, "Can god make a rock that he can't pick up?"

It is silly.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:26 PM
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HE IS GOD ... If you did have a god LadyV ... Would you want to be able to understand him ??? HE IS GOD !!!! ... You know I think that they should have made a better name for him something not so simple as GOD. That looks so easy to understand. It should have been ...

Well not even going to attempt it ... anyways ... Who do you think you are if you are trying to understand GOD ????



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:29 PM
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Christianities 'free will' idea sounds more like slavery to me- Act as i have told you to or you will go to hell.......



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by JoeyC
Christianities 'free will' idea sounds more like slavery to me- Act as i have told you to or you will go to hell.......


Hell is about justice, not blackmail. should a murderer go to heaven?



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Ashlar
[Hell is about justice, not blackmail. should a murderer go to heaven?


Should a Buddist burn for eternity? Just for worshiping the same as his parents?



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by bet555
Who do you think you are if you are trying to understand GOD ????

I am trying to learn and expand my knowledge here.....do you have problems with that? I ask, and yes, I want to understand.....I have always studied religions, but there are several questions that I just don't grasp and I want to....I am not the type of person to just say..ok...I won't question....that's ignorance at it's most high!



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:39 PM
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Nobody here has answered the question. Please, Christians, explain it to us. If you don't understand it then you shouldn't continue being enslaved by it.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:40 PM
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Free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you want without any consequences. It means you are free to choose what to do, INCLUDING the consequences of your actions. Any society based on complete lack of regulations and laws would colapse very fast.

God's law is just like any other law: you are free to choose if you want to kill someone or not, but you also have to deal with the consequences of your choice. Killing someone means life in prison or death sentence.

God knowing what is going to happen still doesn't take this choice from you.
Imagine yourself hovering over a crossroad. You see what is ahead of every road there. A car comes by. The driver turns left although there is a "road closed" sign. You see that his choice is going to lead him directly to the edge of the cliff. He doesnt see it, but you do. He will die.
Now, you knowing that doesn't take the free will from this man. he has chosen to turn left, although there was a sign saying "dont do it".

Same with God. He sees all the roads we can take and he sees the end of each road. But it is still you who makes the decision where to go.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip


Same with God. He sees all the roads we can take and he sees the end of each road. But it is still you who makes the decision where to go.


Wait wait wait...I thought God made everything, didn't he? If he did, then he created his plan for your life. He knew what was going to happen. So, God created your choice. Still, no one has produced a satisfactory answer.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:46 PM
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This is just my understanding of theological "free choice."

See you're looking at this from a human point of view. We all make choices, they're ours to make. God sees all and sees our choices beforehand. That doesn't change the fact that it is US that make those choices. See: Judas Iscariot. Could God interfere and tell us, "You do this and you're screwing up"? Yes. But if he did then we DON'T have free choice, now he's a manipulator.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by iceofspades
Still, no one has produced a satisfactory answer.


Thats because there isnt one. Either God doesnt know everything or he created you KNOWING a thousand years before your birth that you would go to hell.

Wouldnt it make more since for a "loving" God just to not create you to begin with? In other words not let the evil ones be born to begin with? That way everyone has free will and nobody goes to hell.

Do you give your 5 year old a loaded gun to play with and then say it was his choice when he kills his brother?



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 05:49 PM
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Animals live by predeterminism. Their entire experience devolves on the DNA in their cells and the physical conditioning to stimuli that they receive.

Animals do not conceive of God. They do not wonder about the future of others than themselves. Predators live by left-brain goal, purpose and method, or they don't survive. Pastoral animals live by habit [including horses]. Give them a new experience, and they would just as soon bolt.

But humans have another feature: the electronic template overriding physical experience that we call "spirit." Spirit can cause people to act quite irrationally and foolishly from the point-of-view of the organism.

Philanthropy, charity, mercy, tolerance, Grace and forgiveness are all spiritual outcomes having nothing to do with the physical organism itself, and perhaps creating outcomes that are inimical to life. "Sacrifice" is not a value contained in an animal or predatory [even human predator] brain.

Okay, so where does Free Will come into this?

Free Will means a person has some choices, to take some turns at options. In this nation, marriages are not arranged by the family. A person chooses their mate by Free Will. In this nation, people locate themselves by proximity to employment opportunities, not by custom or law. Thus, they CAN legally ACT on their Free Will to move about. ... Since the development of contraceptives--whatever the long-term outcomes might be--the whole topic of having children has been relegated to the domain of Free Will [except in China where having more than one child is now a crime].

Free Will is not cheap. It doesn't come "often." Mobility is a Free Will option that may be present or absent at any particular time in a person's life. E.g., many older persons, due to poverty, are completely immobilized. Their Free Will is incapacitated. So they die. Who wants to live bored and stupefied?

Governing "by the consent of the governed" is a matter of Free Will if and IF ONLY the governing process is not being manipulated or dominated by power politics and a gagged media. In that case, even so-called "elections" are less demonstrations of Free Will than they are of Group Think.

And that's where I'll leave this topic, right here.

: ) Chai



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:01 PM
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hmmmm

Can those who do not believe in divine being define free will how they perceive it?
I think we are moving on different tracks here. What do you consider to be FREE WILL?

Emily_Cragg, couldnt we also say that human actions are also defined by predeterminism, only a lot more complex one then animals?

I mean, if you really think about it, everything we do is a reaction to a previous action, cause and effect, and everything is basicaly already predetermined by our genes, the way our brain works, or past experiences, what we have seen and learned in life, etc, etc. It is a highly complex process that seems random and free, but in reality it isn't.
So what we view as free will, a possibilty to choose what we want, is actually limited.
And if one follows that logic, an all-powerful, all-knowing being would be able to grasp this complexity and by doing that be aware of everything that will happen.

The question of free will is actually the question about the meaning and purpose of our very existence. I doubt that there is a person on this planet who can give a satisfactory answer to that.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip
hmmmm
Can those who do not believe in divine being define free will how they perceive it?
I think we are moving on different tracks here. What do you consider to be FREE WILL?


Well, seeing as this is not your thread, that's asking a lot. However, I'll answer that. Hope LadtV doesn't mind. Here's non-theological free will. You want to get off work early, which means you have to get to work early. BUT, you woke up late. Here's where free will comes in. You can CHOOSE to speed, risk a ticket. Leave early, risk a deduction. OR you can just get to work, do your job and have your plans put by the wayside.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
Hope LadtV doesn't mind.

Don't mind a bit...Just trying to understand this...



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