JUDAISM FROM THE TALMUD

reply to post by Hongkongphooey

Hi HongongPhooey

You wrote

QUOTE : “As a Jew, this is news to me? I was taught the Torah not the talmud, the majority of Jews follow the torah (THE LAW) not the Talmud …” UNQUOTE
So for you TALMUD is out – but you claim to follow the commands of the TORAH (like ‘the majority of Jews’) as if those mangled texts from antiquity have some validity for you to live your life by?

Ouch.

Have you ever bothered to do a close-reading IN HEBREW of the various versions of the texts of the supposedly ancient Torah e.g. the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Hebrew Textual Underlay (Vorlag) to the Greek LXX Septuaginta, or all the various and sundry older Dead Sea Scrolls versions?

Presumably you are more familiar with the much later (c. 940 CE) ‘pointed’ Masoretic Text version-out of Leningrad - but ALL of these non-matching copies of the supposedly ancient Torah specifically espouse racial genocide (using the technical Heb. Term CH-R-M = to ‘mark for extermination’ in the context of a Holy War cf: a Fatwa where a specific group is targeted for racial genodical extinction) of the Palestinian Canaanite amphyctionies - specifically the supposedly ‘divine’ commands’ to exterminate the Amalekites which were especially ‘marked for extermination’ almost as if they were wearing orange stars on their lapels

e.g. TORAH Exodus 17: 8-16

And YHWH said to Mosheh, Write this down as a Memorial on a Scroll and read it into the ears of Joshua son of Nun : Behold, I will Exterminate the Seed (lit. ‘Remembrance’) of the Amalekites from Under Heaven. Therefore Mosheh built an Altar to YHWH there etc.

TORAH Deuteronomy 7: 1-5

When YHWH your clan god brings you to the land where you are headed to take possession of it, and has cast out the goyim before you even the Hittites, and the Girga#es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, even 7 gentile nations that are more numerous & powerful that you are now:

And when YHWH your clan god has delivered them, you shall utterly exterminate them all showing no mercy to them; neither will you make peace treaties with them nor enter into marriage with them – for they will surely turn your sons from following me & cause them to worship other clan gods –thus will the anger of YHWH burn against you to destroy you without notice.

TORAH Deuteronomy 13: 12-17a

12 If you should hear a rumour in one of the towns which YHWH your clan god will give you to live in, saying ‘I heard certain evil men taking local men out encouraging them to worship foreign clan gods which you have not yet heard of, you shall set up an Inquiry & if the accusation is proved, such a Toqebah (‘cultic abomination’) has taken place, you will utterly genocide all the inhabitants of that town, utterly destroying its inhabitants, also the animals – then you will gather together all of their belongings and utterly burn the lot in the town square – and not take any of it for yourself, and leave it a perpetual Ruin, never again to be rebuilt.

TORAH Deuteronomy 20: 10-18

This is the Rule of War for the Towns of the Goyim which YHWH your clan god shall give unto you and your sons as an Inheritance – You will leave nothing alive that breathes, but you shall Exterminate every one of them, viz. the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites just as YHWH your clan god has commanded you, so they cannot teach you all of their foreign ritual Toq’eboth (‘taboos’, ‘cultic abominations’) that they perform for their clan gods, leading you into sin against YHWH your clan god.

TORAH Deuteronomy 25:17-19

Now remember what Amalekites (lit. ‘Amalek’) did to you when you sojourned from Mitzrayim : how they came upon you & attacked your rear including the weakest in your camps & how they showed no reverence for the Elohim (‘gods’) – so it happens when the land you are given by your clan god YHWH is settled to become your Inheritance to possess, you shall Genocide the Seed of Amalek (lit. ‘Remembrance’) from under heaven – you will never forget this. "

Outside Torah, we have references to ‘the fulfillment of the Divine Commands to genocide’ the goyim in books e.g. Joshua & 1 Samuel, in the context of (CH-R-M) i.e. the Holy War ‘devoted’ marking of a particular group for racial Extermination & Genocide of the 'Other’: -

This is the same racial marking-segregation of the ‘other’ that we saw in the last century in the Nazi death camps the religious underpinnings of the genocide were not emphasised to the public (e.g. the Thule Society Tenets of Aryan Supremacy & how to deal with 'slave races' ...)

And these verses show us how 'Mosheh' or whoever wrote these racist-xenophobic passages in the 'holy Torah' of of the Jews dealt with their own final solution to the Cannanite problem...'

But you STILL claim TORAH is in some way to be followed? !!

reply to post by Byrd


yahoo answers isn't that trustworthy of a source

Sanhedrin (סנהדרין) is one of ten tractates of Seder Nezikin (a section of the Talmud that deals with damages, i.e. civil and criminal proceedings). It originally formed one tractate with Makkot, which also deals with criminal law. The Gemara of the tractate is noteworthy as precursors to the development of common law principles, for example the presumption of innocence and the rule that a criminal conviction requires the concurrence of twelve.

this thread is about the zionist regime of israel

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by asher
does no one else have a problem with this?

this is from the ex ats member wise man

JUDAISM FROM THE TALMUD

Approves of Sodomy: "If one
committed sodomy with a child of
less than nine years, no guilt is
incurred" (Sanhedrin 5 4b)

This should be moved to Hoax.

Your source material is not correct: (see this link)

The Sanhedrin is the Jewish court system -- it's not a book

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

Thank you for the clarification on its origin as I had heard these comments before but didn't know it was the courts not the Faith... and yet isn't it even worse that it is law rather than outlook?

Biblical law requires two witnesses to secure a just prosecution and if they can condone the rape or abuse of a child because it will have no memory of the event and enact laws to protect the perpetrators, isn't this even worse than allegations of others iniquity?

I hadn't read the Talmud, perhaps now (thank you for the links) I will and perhaps the story of Sodom and Gomorrah will shed more light on views regarding clearly what is an abomination unto the Lord according to my Bible. How can it be interpreted any other way is beyond me atm since I am unaware just what / who believes in anymore.

All I believe is what is put in my heart and my heart breaks for a humanity that is hedonistic in practice, superficial in Faith, and detrimental to a functioning society.

Perhaps in the spirit of peace we can all stop picking out pieces that can be either/or. and instead focus upon how to resolve it rather how to accentuate the bad.

Personally, I think we have gone down this road before and it seems more apparent by the day that the purpose of Christ becomes more and more defined as understanding of each other grows.

We won't survive each other without Him.


.

Originally posted by asher
reply to post by yadda333

 

i think nothing of the talmud or any religious scripture except the original hebrew bible. my post about the talmud was only a front to safely discuss the atrocities on behalf of rothschilds khazars zionist and the state of israel. i do thank you for your reply but including religious arguments would only shift focus of the true topic of this thread. what i want to really discuss are the actions of the zionist jews

Well, I'm not arguing religiously, but I am attempting to describe Rabbinic thought as an outsider who has studied it in a secular way.

Another problem you face is that there is an oral and a written law in the Hebraic tradition. My point is that understanding Rabbinic thought can be confusing unless you spend a lot of time with some credible sources. And if you're interested in the Torah, then you should consider looking into credible sources that expand on Rabbinic thought.

this post was removed because i called the action of moving this thread to HOAX bullcrap. but i didnt use the word crap

reply to post by asher


I don't' really have a dog in this hunt, but perhaps you could link to the source where your claim can be proven?
Seems fair right?

Originally posted by anoncoholic

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by asher
does no one else have a problem with this?

this is from the ex ats member wise man

JUDAISM FROM THE TALMUD

Approves of Sodomy: "If one
committed sodomy with a child of
less than nine years, no guilt is
incurred" (Sanhedrin 5 4b)

This should be moved to Hoax.

Your source material is not correct: (see this link)

The Sanhedrin is the Jewish court system -- it's not a book

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

Thank you for the clarification on its origin as I had heard these comments before but didn't know it was the courts not the Faith... and yet isn't it even worse that it is law rather than outlook?

Biblical law requires two witnesses to secure a just prosecution and if they can condone the rape or abuse of a child because it will have no memory of the event and enact laws to protect the perpetrators, isn't this even worse than allegations of others iniquity?

I hadn't read the Talmud, perhaps now (thank you for the links) I will and perhaps the story of Sodom and Gomorrah will shed more light on views regarding clearly what is an abomination unto the Lord according to my Bible. How can it be interpreted any other way is beyond me atm since I am unaware just what / who believes in anymore.

All I believe is what is put in my heart and my heart breaks for a humanity that is hedonistic in practice, superficial in Faith, and detrimental to a functioning society.

Perhaps in the spirit of peace we can all stop picking out pieces that can be either/or. and instead focus upon how to resolve it rather how to accentuate the bad.

Personally, I think we have gone down this road before and it seems more apparent by the day that the purpose of Christ becomes more and more defined as understanding of each other grows.

We won't survive each other without Him.


.

i actually found that Sanhedrin is a part of the talmud and the site owner Springer still moved my thread.

Sanhedrin (סנהדרין) is one of ten tractates of Seder Nezikin (a section of the Talmud that deals with damages, i.e. civil and criminal proceedings). It originally formed one tractate with Makkot, which also deals with criminal law. The Gemara of the tractate is noteworthy as precursors to the development of common law principles, for example the presumption of innocence and the rule that a criminal conviction requires the concurrence of twelve

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by asher

 

I don't' really have a dog in this hunt, but perhaps you could link to the source where your claim can be proven?
Seems fair right?

that does. all you have to do is google it or go to wikipedia. many links were posted earlier in this thread if you want more information

Sanhedrin (tractate)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the council of seventy-one Jewish sages in Judea during the Roman period, see Sanhedrin.
Sanhedrin (סנהדרין) is one of ten tractates of Seder Nezikin (a section of the Talmud that deals with damages, i.e. civil and criminal proceedings). It originally formed one tractate with Makkot, which also deals with criminal law. The Gemara of the tractate is noteworthy as precursors to the development of common law principles, for example the presumption of innocence and the rule that a criminal conviction requires the concurrence of twelve.
[edit]Summary of Sanhedrin

Within Seder Nezikin, the Sanhedrin focuses on questions of jurisdiction, criminal law and punishments. The tractate includes eleven chapters, addressing the following topics:
The different levels of courts and which cases each level presides over
Laws of the high priest and Jewish king and their involvement in court proceedings
Civil suits: acceptable witnesses and judges and the general proceedings
The difference between criminal and civil cases, general proceedings in criminal cases
Court procedures, including examination of witnesses and the voting of the judges
Procedures for execution after condemnation, especially stoning
The 4 types of capital punishments, details of crimes which merit stoning
The rebellious son, and other crimes for which the offender is killed before committing the actual prohibition, and the commandments which Jews are to die before violating.
Details of crimes meriting capital punishment by burning or slaying; auxiliary punishments
Details of crimes meriting capital punishment by choking
The World to Come. This chapter is known individually by Helek, one of its opening words.
This is the order found in the Gemara, but the Mishna has the last 2 chapters reversed in order.
[edit]External links

Sanhedrin Tractate Jewish Virtual Library
[hide] v t e
The Six Orders of the Mishnah (ששה סדרי משנה)
Zeraim (Seeds)
(זרעים) Moed (Festival)
(מועד) Nashim (Women)
(נשים) Nezikin (Damages)
(נזיקין) Kodashim (Holies)
(קדשים) Tehorot (Purities)
(טהרות)
Berakhot Pe'ah Demai Kil'ayim Shevi'it Terumot Ma'aserot Ma'aser Sheni Hallah Orlah Bikkurim
Shabbat Eruvin Pesahim Shekalim Yoma Sukkah Beitzah Rosh Hashanah Ta'anit Megillah Mo'ed Katan Hagigah
Yevamot Ketubot Nedarim Nazir Sotah Gittin Kiddushin
Bava Kamma Bava Metzia Bava Batra Sanhedrin Makkot Shevu'ot Eduyot Avodah Zarah Avot Horayot
Zevahim Menahot Hullin Bekhorot Arakhin Temurah Keritot Me'ilah Tamid Middot Kinnim
Keilim Oholot Nega'im Parah Tehorot Mikva'ot Niddah Makhshirin Zavim Tevul Yom Yadayim Uktzim
Sanhedrin (Talmud)

i didnt think ATS would stoop so low

reply to post by asher


What I am getting from this is that Judaic Faith is so weak they are embellishing the word of God to seem Godly.

I seriously doubt God would condone any actions against a child and He specifically mentions what you do to these (the children) the least of His, you do to Him.

While I do not necessarily agree with this being moved to the hoax bin it is not my site and what motives are behind the judgment call lies in the hearts of others so I can't comment other than to say that truth, one way or the other, will always come out in the end.

And only God knows all hearts and minds.

There is only one synagogue inherent to a specific religion and that Religion is of the Jews. It wasn't the Jewish people of today that crucified Christ, in fact I am sure there is a remorse within all of them at least to some degree and it is in that regret that the spirit of togetherness will prevail... if given the chance that is.

Perhaps someone can define the moment for me? What exactly was the crime? Sedition? Denouncing money? Performing miracles on the Sabbath?

I think man has presumed too much in thinking the Will of God is only available to a certain race... the seven candlesticks of the seven churches ( Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity) show that all are believing in the same God but it is the adherence to the Word of God that will determine their fates.

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd

Originally posted by UnBreakable

Originally posted by asher
reply to post by g146541

 

thats what im saying. except this race owns most of america and are engaging in the genocide of Palestinians as we speak. i couldn't care less about the religious aspect. but these people have no morals and they are using us as pawns. to them we are goyim cattle. and people so readily jump to there defense and pull the anti Semitic card when they are questioned. the jews in israel are employing the same tactics the the nazis used against them. and they are not even real jews.

For the record, I'm Catholic........ but to categorize a whole race of people due to 3,000 year old religious writings is totally ridiculous. Did you ever read the Bible us "Christians" supposedly adhere to? God kills innocents in the first few books of the Bible, condones abortion, etc. Non-Christians probably think our religious writings are whacked.

answer me this though, if you don't believe in religion how can you be Christian (not you personally)

As a Christian, I believe in Christ's message of 'do unto others'. I'm more spiritual than religious, in fact I'm not religious at all. While Christ wore simple garb and eschewed materialism, those punks at the Vatican are living in luxurious surroundings , wearing ornate robes and big hats, and condoning and promoting pedophelia. You don't have to have blowing smoke and ringing bells to follow Christ. I don't think that's what Christ was all about. As Ghandi said (I'm paraphrasing here) "I like your Christ but not so much your Christians".

Originally posted by asher

Originally posted by UnBreakable

Originally posted by asher
reply to post by g146541

 

thats what im saying. except this race owns most of america and are engaging in the genocide of Palestinians as we speak. i couldn't care less about the religious aspect. but these people have no morals and they are using us as pawns. to them we are goyim cattle. and people so readily jump to there defense and pull the anti Semitic card when they are questioned. the jews in israel are employing the same tactics the the nazis used against them. and they are not even real jews.

For the record, I'm Catholic........ but to categorize a whole race of people due to 3,000 year old religious writings is totally ridiculous. Did you ever read the Bible us "Christians" supposedly adhere to? God kills innocents in the first few books of the Bible, condones abortion, etc. Non-Christians probably think our religious writings are whacked.

who mentioned anything about "categorize a whole race of people due to 3,000 year old religious writings" this thread is about the zionist regime of israel. like I've said before i am not talking about all jews i am only talking about rothschilds khazars and zionist. please point out the part in which i have categorized a whole race and i will stand corrected but until then dont put words in my mouth. and no i have never read the bible

I stand corrected then. I must have misread your post when you point out "except this race owns most of america and are engaging in the genocide of Palestinians as we speak".

reply to post by UnBreakable


ah i see. i could have chosen my words better. i understand where your coming from. if you read the post i was replying to you will see that he made a joke about an evil master race

reply to post by anoncoholic


i agree

Revelations 2.9
And I know the blasphemy of them which say they are jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by asher
does no one else have a problem with this?

this is from the ex ats member wise man

JUDAISM FROM THE TALMUD

Approves of Sodomy: "If one
committed sodomy with a child of
less than nine years, no guilt is
incurred" (Sanhedrin 5 4b)

This should be moved to Hoax.

Your source material is not correct: (see this link)

The Sanhedrin is the Jewish court system -- it's not a book

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

so how is it that when i prove you wrong my thread isnt moved back?

reply to post by asher


I'd say sensitivity. This subject matter can be volatile when a group feels singled out.

For whatever the reason thank you for starting this thread as it is of some comfort to be able to voice an opinion on a matter that weighs so heavily upon the heart and mind.

It is all too little too late so there is no consolation there, but at least maybe others will come from it with a different perspective.

one can only hope, but we all know the mind is a fickle thing

Originally posted by Byrd

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

Okay Byrd, you're going to have to help me with this one because I am confused, and considering your reputation of solid facts and accuracy I don't want to put my foot in my mouth by disputing your claim.

You say there is no book or chapter called Sanhedrin, but in the link that you gave there appears in the list of books, and a section called "Book 8: Sanhedrin".

Book 8: Tract Sanhedrin: Section Jurisprudence (Damages)

The subject matter of Tract Sanhedrin is principally crime and punishment. One of the most notable discussions in this book is the debate about the 'stubborn and rebellious son' (Chapter VIII). The rabbis openly express scepticism that a son who disrespects his father in a particular way should be put to death. Out of this quibble over an obscure 'worst case scenario' we see the emergence of a key principle of jurisprudence: the execution of divine law must be tempered by human mercy. This book also wanders far and wide, dispensing wisdom on such topics as the location of the lost tribes, what the windows on Noah's ark were made of, and when the Messiah is due to arrive.

The Sanhedrin is listed in chapters on the website in that link.
A brief word about the book from your link:

The Babylonian Talmud: Tract Sanhedrin
We, however, have translated it almost literally, with an effort to make it in some respects intelligible to the general reader, and have also added footnotes, where we deemed it necessary. And we may say that the real student will find much pleasure if he will devote his special attention to this tract.

For this purpose we have made from this celebrated tract a double volume, as we deem it will please the readers and the students, and will also equalize the size of the volumes.

Sacred Texts

Is this a part of the Talmud or not?

You're usually spot on, so I am admittedly confused here and the site seems to indicate that it is or was at one point.

- Lee

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by Byrd

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

Okay Byrd, you're going to have to help me with this one because I am confused, and considering your reputation of solid facts and accuracy I don't want to put my foot in my mouth by disputing your claim.

You say there is no book or chapter called Sanhedrin, but in the link that you gave there appears in the list of books, and a section called "Book 8: Sanhedrin".

The Sanhedrin is listed in chapters on the website in that link.
A brief word about the book from your link:

The Babylonian Talmud: Tract Sanhedrin
We, however, have translated it almost literally, with an effort to make it in some respects intelligible to the general reader, and have also added footnotes, where we deemed it necessary. And we may say that the real student will find much pleasure if he will devote his special attention to this tract.

For this purpose we have made from this celebrated tract a double volume, as we deem it will please the readers and the students, and will also equalize the size of the volumes.

Sacred Texts

Is this a part of the Talmud or not?

You're usually spot on, so I am admittedly confused her and the site seems to indicate that it is or was at one point.

- Lee

it is a part of the talmud. he lied so he could move the thread. this is injustice. it was actually Springer that moved the thread.its not fair that the whole thread is discredited just because one mod posted false information from yahoo answers of all places

reply to post by asher


I do agree (on looking further) that there is a section called Sanhedrin. However, your quotes seem very out of context.

The full page is here: (using a translation you pointed to, I believe)

...which starts in a court of rabbis arguing about what constitutes idolatry.

R. Jannai said: Punishment is not incurred unless one delivers his seed to the acolytes of Molech,1 for it is said, And thou shalt not give of thy seed to pass through the fire to Molech.2 It has been taught likewise: I might think, that if one caused his seed to pass through the fire to Molech, without first delivering it to the priests, he is liable: therefore the Writ teaches, Thou shalt not give. If he gave it to the priests, but did not cause it to pass through the fire, I might think that he is liable: therefore the Writ states, to pass through. If one delivered it [to the priests of Molech], but caused it to pass through to some other deity, I might think that he is punished: therefore the Writ teaches, to Molech. Now, if he delivered it to the priests and caused it to pass to Molech, but not through the fire, I might think that he is liable.

So it condemns offering anything to idols.

Then one of the Rabbis proposes a thought question: suppose the "seed" is an illegitimate child (from a woman that has been forbidden to a man) and is offered to an idol:

R. Aha the son of Raba said: If one caused all his seed to pass through [the fire] to Molech, he is exempt from punishment, because it is written, of thy seed implying, but not all thy seed.

This view is rejected, and the point is restated that it's God's commandment that if anyone does this, he will be cut off from God's grace and mercy:

Why is this stated?7 — Because it is said, there shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire.8 From this I know it only of his son or daughter. Whence do I know that it applies to his son's son or daughter's son too? From the verse, [And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man] when he giveth of his seed unto Molech [and kill him not: Then I will … cut him off.]

The discussion continues with a Rabbi who says that a man is responsible for his own actions -- so if any member of his family (performs an act of idol worship), the man is not responsible for the actions of his family.

He is liable only for his own issue; e.g., for his son and daughter, he is punished; but for his father or mother, brother or sister, he is not. If he passed through himself, he is free from punishmen

They then take up the matter addressed in the PREVIOUS page, of someone doing something in mockery (to reject an idol)... having the kids run through the fire as a game.

Abaye said: There was a loose pile of bricks in the middle, and fire on either side of it.13 Raba said: It was like the children's leaping about on Purim.14 It has been taught in support of Raba. Punishment is incurred only for causing one's seed to pass in the normal fashion; if he caused him to pass through on foot, he is exempt.

This continues with the argument that "if you do something to mock a false idol, can you be held responsible for idol worship?"

The chapter concludes that any form of idol worship is worthy of a death penalty:

R. Jose, son of R. Hanina said: Why is extinction thrice threatened for idolatry?22 — One teaches extinction for the normal worship of idols; one for abnormal; and one for the service of Molech

The question is asked, "Why is Moloch different" and the answer is that "offering your kid to Moloch is NOT a method of worshiping Moloch and is a lame excuse. You'll be executed for the act."

To apply to one who causes his son to pass through to an idol [not Molech], where such is not the normal mode of worship. Now, on the view that a megaddef24 is a worshipper of idols,22 why is extinction stated for it?25 — Even as it has been taught:26 That soul shall surely be cut off from among his people;27 he shall be cut off in this world and in the next: this is R. Akiba's view

It concludes with the idea that "his soul shall be cut off" in all the worlds (and notes that the "three worlds" is metaphorical.)

So, no. No child sacrifice.

And so forth.

Originally posted by asher
it is a part of the talmud. he lied so he could move the thread. this is injustice. it was actually Springer that moved the thread.its not fair that the whole thread is discredited just because one mod posted false information from yahoo answers of all places

Byrd is a she.
She isn't known to lie, so maybe this is an error.

I just found it odd that when I went to the link, the book was right there.
It's sort of obvious so I was thinking that perhaps I was missing something.

- Lee