JUDAISM FROM THE TALMUD

reply to post by anoncoholic

My God doesn't code things to keep them hidden, He gives clues to truth. He doesn't code things to sophisticate it so none can understand it, He gave us all the answers in the Bible. There is a reason it is vast, it contains not merely clues, but guidance, strength, Faith, and ultimately justice. It is also a supernatural connection to God Himself..

For the umpteenth time, not even the most devout Jew thinks that the Talmud was written by God. The Talmud is a collection of debates by lawyers trying to interpret biblical law after the destruction of the Temple. It is filled with outrageous hypothetical cases because the Jews were suddenly living in a land where the locals had temple prostitutes and business orgies. Seriously.

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by Byrd

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

Okay Byrd, you're going to have to help me with this one because I am confused, and considering your reputation of solid facts and accuracy I don't want to put my foot in my mouth by disputing your claim.

You say there is no book or chapter called Sanhedrin, but in the link that you gave there appears in the list of books, and a section called "Book 8: Sanhedrin".

Book 8: Tract Sanhedrin: Section Jurisprudence (Damages)

I'd looked at a different Talmud (not the Babylonian one) and it didn't have Sanhedrin there. My error -- I'm not Jewish and although I have some familiarity with it, I'm not THAT familiar with it. So, yeah -- strike one, there.

I try to be as accurate as possible, but sometimes the ol' "google-fu" fails me. This time, all the links to "Sanhedrin" text involved some very questionable sites and other reputable links that showed Sanhedrin as a court of judges.

Originally posted by lee anoma
reply to post by Byrd

 

Byrd,

From what I can tell, some of the excerpts that the OP posted at the start of this thread are indeed in that book of the Talmud.

However, wouldn't a better argument be that some of these statements were merely a sign of the times, or at least of those in charge during the writing of such laws? A sampling of a sort of 'medieval' set of actions no longer believed appropriate in our day and age?

Certainly true -- and as you say, no longer valid. But the problem is that they also are deliberately misleading in that they take some of the "let's clarify just where the fine points of the law are" examples and use those as "okay, they said this is the law" instead of looking at what the outcome of the discussion was.

Most ancient religious texts, from the Bible to the Koran, also have some pretty controversial statements within them. Whether or not a contemporary believer feels they should be followed, are out of context, or that another section within that book (or a another Holy source) negates the controversial one, such controversial statements and actions are indeed there.

Agreed. The secular world (and actually any organization with any set of rules) is raddled with ancient ways that we've discarded. The Bible is full of many such examples.

In any text, malicious "pointing to sins" is possible. If you want an excuse to hate any group or to promote a "moral panic" to get others riled up against this group, then the easiest thing to do is find some of their text and take it out of context.

reply to post by Byrd


If these are arcane laws out of antiquity then why are they being taught today? I confess I haven't researched this subject and only draw upon my own morality to judge words/actions. These laws no matter which era you look at them in are simply evil. I am not infallible and am going from memory here but the way I understood it is that a child under a certain age isn't a victim and the molester isn't guilty because the child won't remember the SEXUAL assault?

The laws itself aren't the issue since back then it probably was an issue otherwise it wouldn't have been recorded as a law - but the fact that they are still being taught doesn't strike you as strange or even perhaps an indication that these laws are still being adhered to today?

If so, then how can it be swept under the rug by excusing it as ancient history?

Like I said, I am not infallible, nobody is ... except the Jews apparently

Originally posted by anoncoholic
reply to post by Byrd

 

If these are arcane laws out of antiquity then why are they being taught today?

They are studied and referenced for the same reason that lawyers today use old casebooks to clarify points of the law and to learn how the law developed. It's the reason we use history to study public policy; the reason we use Plato and Socrates to study modern philosophy.

I confess I haven't researched this subject and only draw upon my own morality to judge words/actions. These laws no matter which era you look at them in are simply evil.

What you are seeing (Talmud/Midrashes) is essentially like reading the transcript of the O.J. Simpson case and pretending that each sentence that every lawyer spoke was actually a law.

Each of these is a "religious legal case." The statements I examined were not the final ruling (the "law") but were rather from the debate and represented theoretical cases. In the case of the "child sacrifice", the actual case is about "worshiping foreign gods" and the question (which the original material took to be a "law") is a theoretical one about responsibility and what actions are culpable.

I am not infallible and am going from memory here but the way I understood it is that a child under a certain age isn't a victim and the molester isn't guilty because the child won't remember the SEXUAL assault?

I've never heard or seen that one. It's certainly not in the section of the Sanhedrin that I read, and from what I know of rabbinical literature and the little I know from having read tiny bits and pieces of the midrashes and torah, it doesn't make any sense.

The laws itself aren't the issue since back then it probably was an issue otherwise it wouldn't have been recorded as a law

No, these were real laws.

The rabbis (in their examples) *may* be using excuses that they heard from their own congregations. I don't know. It was thousands of years ago, and I wasn't there. I'm basing this opinion on my limited knowedge of human nature.

but the fact that they are still being taught doesn't strike you as strange or even perhaps an indication that these laws are still being adhered to today?

No. Lawyers have to learn a lot of case law from bygone times. For instance, Lochner vs. New York, which is about whether it's unconstitutional to limit the number of hours that someone works is still studied (famous case, the Supreme Court's decision was overturned.) Lawyers present trial cases (each is unique) based on older laws and older cases.

And anyone who studies anything in depth is taught how things were done in the past. In anthropology, we're taught the mistakes of past anthropologists so that we don't do those things.

reply to post by Byrd


Thanks for clearing that up for me. In all honesty I am not well enough versed in in the matter to even offer an educated guess. What concerns me is that laws like these manipulate the system to protect the guilty.

Perhaps I will spend some time delving further into it

Isn't taking long to find info, in fact it only took a minute but I got sidetracked by another site that probably warrants a thread of its own.

Anyway I did find this so far...

The Talmud Nullifies the Bible The Jewish Scribes claim the Talmud is partly a collection of traditions Moses gave them in oral form. These had not yet been written down in Jesus' time. Christ condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible. Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud's Gittin Tractate, the Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending: "Hillel decreed the prozbul for the betterment of the world. The prozbul is a legal fiction which allows debts to be collected after the Sabbatical year and it was Hillel's intention thereby to overcome the fear that money-lenders had of losing their money." The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah. Unfortunately, due to the abysmal ignorance of our day, the widespread "Judeo-Christian" notion is that the Old Testament is the supreme book of Judaism. But this is not so. The Pharisees teach for doctrine the commandments of rabbis, not God. The Talmudic commentary on the Bible is their supreme law, and not the Bible itself. That commentary does indeed, as Jesus said, void the laws of God, not uphold them. As students of the Talmud, we know this to be true.

sourced here : www.revisionisthistory.org...

I have barely scratched the surface...

ETA: it becomes obvious now why Christ is being denied as being the Messiah

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by Byrd

The Babylonian Talmud can be found in its entirety at this link. There is no chapter called "Sanhedrin" and no book called "Sanhedirn."

Okay Byrd, you're going to have to help me with this one because I am confused, and considering your reputation of solid facts and accuracy I don't want to put my foot in my mouth by disputing your claim.

You say there is no book or chapter called Sanhedrin, but in the link that you gave there appears in the list of books, and a section called "Book 8: Sanhedrin".

Book 8: Tract Sanhedrin: Section Jurisprudence (Damages)

I'd looked at a different Talmud (not the Babylonian one) and it didn't have Sanhedrin there. My error -- I'm not Jewish and although I have some familiarity with it, I'm not THAT familiar with it. So, yeah -- strike one, there.

I try to be as accurate as possible, but sometimes the ol' "google-fu" fails me. This time, all the links to "Sanhedrin" text involved some very questionable sites and other reputable links that showed Sanhedrin as a court of judges.

edit on 20-3-2013 by Byrd because: (no reason given)

so then your the one who is out of context byrd and my thread was wrongfully moved. when is it gonna be moved back?

The blatant racism and ethnocentricity of the Talmud is... a hoax?

reply to post by twitchy


black is white, up is down and does it really matter where it resides when it merely accentuates the point?

ETA on second thought it does matter

Originally posted by twitchy
The blatant racism and ethnocentricity of the Talmud is... a hoax?

you get the idea. ATS and its moderators are a hoax. look through that pages of this thread and notice how byrd only post when i have stopped. she got springer to move this thread and now even after she was proven wrong and admitted to being wrong they keep this thread in the hoax bin. its a cover up as usual. nobody can say anything bad about israel right? we can talk bad about america but israel is off limits because they are the holy ones? with there disgusting man made laws and lawyers who manipulate words. notice how even when i give examples of how im not talking about all jews this DJW001 guy who is obviously a zionist jew says.

You are asking people to hate Zionists, ie; Jews.

no your wrong just because your a jew doesnt mean your a zionist. watch the language he is using. he is the one lopping all jews together. in his mind a attack on one is an attack on all. and thats exactly how they fight there battles. they dont care if they hurt women or children. i dont care what context its in the talmud used for evil. not by me but by zionist. i have noticed his way of talking since he first posted. like a lawyer

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by asher

 

who says anything is misquoted? those words are in the talmud so how can they be misquoted. its... my fault zionist follow this. once again i must say I'm...talking about all jews. I... affect our world through manipulation and murder. this thread... is evil itself.

See how that works?

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

Even if you aren't "taught" the Talmud, it is still part of your religion.

Own it.

What a load of Rubbish on many points! First of all I am not religious and secondly their are many types of Jews as much astheir are many types of Christians! Mein Kampf was written by a so called Christian - Own It!

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

Even if you aren't "taught" the Talmud, it is still part of your religion.

Own it.

What a load of Rubbish on many points! First of all I am not religious and secondly their are many types of Jews as much astheir are many types of Christians! Mein Kampf was written by a so called Christian - Own It!

so are you a zionist and do you take the side of israel?

reply to post by Sigismundus


Can I stop laughing now? Did i say I follow the Torah? I said I am not reigious, didn't I? I don't believe in any religion! OK, so now do you understand?

Of course the Jewish Religion is thousands of years out of date and it would be impossible to follow the Torah entirely, what I was referring to was the 10 commandments of the Torah, the same 10 commandments used in the Christian Bible. The same 10 commandments that Yeshua (Jesus) taught!

What's your point?

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey
reply to post by Sigismundus

 

Can I stop laughing now? Did i say I follow the Torah? I said I am not reigious, didn't I? I don't believe in any religion! OK, so now do you understand?

Of course the Jewish Religion is thousands of years out of date and it would be impossible to follow the Torah entirely, what I was referring to was the 10 commandments of the Torah, the same 10 commandments used in the Christian Bible. The same 10 commandments that Yeshua (Jesus) taught!

What's your point?

In the face of what has been posted you are under the impression the 10 commandments are the same?

Obviously you aren't even bothering to read.

ETA this might all seem like a joke to you and entertaining.

You really haven't got a clue

reply to post by Byrd


I had heard the claims before
www.thebirdman.org...&Porn&Prostitution&Decadence/TalmudPermitsAdult-ChildSex.html
ETA The URL is too long to post correctly so I will break it down and you can c/p it
www.thebirdman....
org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-Sex&Porn&Prostitution&Decadence/TalmudPermitsAdult-ChildSex.html
The allegations are always denied and yet the truth is coming together in a not so pleasant view.

Sure, it is easy for anyone to post anything and it doesn't necessarily make it true, however, corroboration establishes a preponderance of evidence.

If these "laws" are just to anyone in their right mind ... well, what can I say? I'm on the wrong planet

"When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than three years old it is as if one puts the finger into the eye - tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years. When a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a pieces of wood'." (Kethuboth 11b). "The seed [child] of a Christian is of no more value than that of a beast." (Kethuboth 3b).

Such a loving outlook

Originally posted by anoncoholic
reply to post by Byrd

 

I had heard the claims before
www.thebirdman.org...&Porn&Prostitution&Decadence/TalmudPermitsAdult-ChildSex.html

The allegations are always denied and yet the truth is coming together in a not so pleasant view.

Sure, it is easy for anyone to post anything and it doesn't necessarily make it true, however, corroboration establishes a preponderance of evidence.

If these "laws" are just to anyone in their right mind ... well, what can I say? I'm on the wrong planet

"When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than three years old it is as if one puts the finger into the eye - tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years. When a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a pieces of wood'." (Kethuboth 11b). "The seed [child] of a Christian is of no more value than that of a beast." (Kethuboth 3b).

Such a loving outlook

edit on 20-3-2013 by anoncoholic because: (no reason given)

lets see what they come up with now. theres no way that can be taken out of context.

reply to post by Hongkongphooey

Hi again, Phooey

You wrote: QUOTE

Can I stop laughing now? Did i say I follow the Torah? I said I am not reigious, [sic] didn't I? I don't believe in any religion! OK, so now do you understand?

Of course the Jewish Religion is thousands of years out of date and it would be impossible to follow the Torah entirely, what I was referring to was the 10 commandments of the Torah, the same 10 commandments used in the Christian Bible. The same 10 commandments that Yeshua (Jesus) taught!

What's your point?

UNQUOTE

What's my point? Well, there were alot of them if you bothered to read my post carefully.

For one thing the TORAH as a whole has drifted FAR from the so-called Ten Commandments – they are NOT THE SAME THING - which you should know if you bothered to read it (whether you choose to read the later botched Masoretic text versions, or the Dead Sea Scroll versions or the Samaritan Pentateuchal version or the Hebrew Vorlag underlay to the LXX Greek Septuaginta versions) –

For example in one place it says, e.g. ‘You will not make to me any graven images..’ which words were placed into the mouth of YHWH the clan god of post Exilic Yisro’el – and in another place it says (Numbers 21:5ff )
‘And the benei Yiro’el began to murmur against the Elohim and against Mosheh and spoke to him saying,, “Why have you brought us up out of Mitzrayim to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And the food is an abomination to us.”

So YHWH sent among them poisoned snakes so that they bit the people and many of the benei Yisro’el died.

Then the people approached Mosheh and spoke to him saying : “We sinned when we spoke against YHWH and against you. Pray that YHWH will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. Then YHWH spoke to Mosheh saying

“You will forge a Bronze Snake Idol and you will place it up on a sacred Pole – so that anyone who is bitten will be able to regard it, and he will live.” So Mosheh fashioned a Bronze Snake Idol and placed it uponi a Pole – and when anyone was bitten by a snake and regarded the Bronze Snake Idol, they survived…

So which is it, Phooey?

Do you REALLY think the 10 Commandments and the Torah are the same thing in terms of its overall messaging (‘you will not make unto me any graven idols”) versus Torah command to make a Bronze Snake to protect against snake bite - (‘graven image’) –

Who taught you Torah anyway? (whether you are a ‘believer’ or not, you should at least be familiar with the facts before you start posting inane & unsupportable comments on ATS)

Didn’t you know that the supposedly ancient Torah of the Jews (being the patch-work of many hands) is full of internal and irreconcilable contradictions? Even the versions of the 10 commandments found in the 'text' don't match each other word for word...see TORAH Exodus, chapter 20, then read TORAH Exodus, chapter 34 then read TORAH Deuteronomy, chapter 5 in Hebrew.

So...maybe it’s time you stopped laughing – although perhaps I should not waste my time answering such drivel on a Thread that has clearly degenerated into yet another ATS HOAX !

reply to post by asher


yeah, that link is problematic... copy the link up to dot org and paste it in a browser, then copy the rest and add it to the link is the only way I see of viewing that page yourself

sorry

Originally posted by anoncoholic
reply to post by asher

 

yeah, that link is problematic... copy the link up to dot org and paste it in a browser, then copy the rest and add it to the link is the only way I see of viewing that page yourself

sorry

oh don't worry about it. i thank you for still contributing to this thread even when it was put into the HOAX bin. without post like that this thread would be nothing but mindless bickering. once again thank you for helping me spread truth.