Is it possible to be a Christian and a believer in Islam?

reply to post by adjensen

"No one is good--except God alone."

Also, according to Jesus... no one except "God alone" is good.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well look at it this way. Mohammed didn't claim to have any magical powers he was a man who also received the message. Jesus though dies, comes back and then takes off into heaven, sort of like Superman. Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? It sounds more like a Space object than anything else.

reply to post by adjensen

Try not to answer a question with a question, m-kay? I will repeat -- Here's the passage again, please underline the part where Jesus says either "I am not God" or "I am not good".

If it doesn't state the negative, then the positive may be inferred, even if it is not explicit.

He didn't say "I am not God".

But since you are more interested in playing cunning word games, as opposed to discussing the actual scripture from YOUR book the bible...tell me, where exactly did Jesus say "I am God".

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
It can also be said that those wrote the Bible borrowed everything from the Jews.... hijacked their concept of the messiah...... and presented him as God himself.

A lot of what the Christians have came from the Jews. And a lot of that came from the Summerians and Egyptians. EVERYTHING that the Muslims have came from someone else. And who knows .. a thousand years from now someone will come along with a new religion and claim it's revelation, but it will infact be bits and pieces of what we have on earth now.

The point is .. none of those supposed 'scientific revelations' to Muhammad are actually revelations at all. They were around for thousands of years before Muhammad claimed to have his 'revelations'. All he did was rewrite old stories from a variety of sources and represent them as his own and as having gotten them via some messenger from God.

edit on 3/19/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

But now what your saying is a miracle because how does an illiterate person steal something that has already been written when he cannot read and write?

reply to post by adjensen

If it doesn't state the negative, then the positive may be inferred, even if it is not explicit.

In that case let us go by Jesus' direct statement... "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only".

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
tell me, where exactly did Jesus say "I am God".

I understand that you're Muslim, and therefore not to be expected to be aware of the subtleties of Christian doctrine, but come on. This is basic stuff that anyone with a passing knowledge of the Bible should at least understand, even if they don't agree with it.

Jesus Christ is God, in scriptural citations.

reply to post by adjensen

Try not to answer a question with a question, m-kay? I will repeat -- Here's the passage again, please underline the part where Jesus says either "I am not God" or "I am not good". If it doesn't state the negative, then the positive may be inferred, even if it is not explicit.

come on!!! You din't just say that!

here's what i had replied to you earlier

you are seeking a proof for divinity in
a simple rhetoric question.
Its simply putting a meaning that fits
your belief.
It would be the same as saying he is
god because he never said "i am not God"!!

so whats next? Trinity is true because Jesus pbuh never said that its false?!!!

reply to post by InnerPeace2012


Yes! You understand!

I think we are meant to be those lights.
Think about. Does God really want you to constantly obey him and do everything he tells you to do?
Or would He want you to know the right decision yourself and make it yourself?
He wants to teach you how, you need only listen.

And for the record, I'm getting deeper into the Qu'ran and am completely convinced Muhammad was talking to God. But you can tell those things that were added be either he or someone else.

You can't say "Loving God is like loving your enemy" and also say "let those who rise up against you be condemned." perfect example of the first one being God speaking through the Qu'ran, the second is Muhammad speaking through the Qu'ran. (or an editor.)

There is really no difference between Jesus and Muhammad, other than that they were Messengers to different peoples. Jesus never said he was the only son of God. Never ever, not in any verse.
He never said "Confess your sins to me, and I will forgive you." He said "Love one another as [God] has loved you" and "Deny [God] before Men, and [God] will deny you at Judgemet day." But not because it is wicked to not believe in God! It is because all of the wicked DO NOT believe. They have no good moral compass, and many believe themselves to be the only true consciousness on the earth. (Read: solipsism.)

The wicked, not the non believers will be the ones in torment. For the non believers who have not hardened their hearts, God will bring you close to Him before Judgemet and you will have nothing to fear.
All of your sins will be forgiven, including the sin of denying Him, for we were given the test of not knowing Him in Flesh. Failure is forgiven. Always. But a failure to keep trying, to be a good person if not for God, will end in death.

It makes me sad. I don't want anyone to die. But God's will is to make a safe place for us. We need only trust Him, and walk the path.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by adjensen

 

Try not to answer a question with a question, m-kay? I will repeat -- Here's the passage again, please underline the part where Jesus says either "I am not God" or "I am not good". If it doesn't state the negative, then the positive may be inferred, even if it is not explicit.

come on!!! You din't just say that!

You missed a key word in my statement. I have underlined it for you.

I never said that "not saying he wasn't God" means that he said he was God. I said that, in the absence of a declarative (either way,) the text is ambivalent and may be read either way, though if read with the belief that he is not God, the statement is not particularly effective (because there is neither a response or a conclusion to "Why call me good?", so it's kind of a weird question,) whereas if it is read with the belief that he is God, the statement makes more sense, as I said, as sounding out the rich young man to see what his beliefs were.

reply to post by adjensen

if read with the belief that he is not God, the statement is not particularly effective (because there is neither a response or a conclusion to "Why call me good?", so it's kind of a weird question,)

not really true. Its a completely sound and understandable question. A rhetorical one. It is conclusive too.
If i say, "why ask me this? Only God knows the truth" does it mean that it can be inferred that i may be god?!!

if it is read
with the belief that he is God, the statement makes more sense, as I said,
as sounding out the rich young man
to see what his beliefs were.

again, not really true. You see it that way because you want it that way.

The statement is simply declaring his humbleness and human-ness and thats what, he is teaching the young man.

Jesus Christ pbuh used the rhetorical devices a lot, he is a learned man, you can't expect only declarative statements from him.

[8] And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned
within themselves, said to them, "Why
do you question thus in your hearts?

[23] And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can
Satan cast out Satan?

[21] And he said to them, "Is a lamp
brought in to be put under a bushel,
or under a bed, and not on a stand?

[40] He said to them, "Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?"

the meaning of these question is very clear and Jesus pbuh follows a rhetoric question by a clarification.

[23] And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can
Satan cast out Satan?
[24] If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
[25] And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to
stand.
[26] And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot
stand, but is coming to an end.

meaning he is not posessed, but if we take your logic then he may be posessed.

The same way, "why call me good?" is clear as "don't" followed by a clarification.

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save
one, that is, God.

reply to post by logical7


Jesus, pbuh, was not God Himself. He was only a man raised by God, who could never have the luxury of denying or ignoring God's voice until he had known death.

Let me ask you, believers. What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make GOD kill Jesus? (Or allow him to be killed by failure to stop the people who denied the truth of what Jesus spoke. If Jesus was "perfect" or even "good," why would God allow him to deny having committed no transgression of the Law given to Men by God.

Clearly Jesus had love for men, but did he respect us? If Jesus respected men, why would he ACCUSE them in GOD's synagogues of being thieves? What were they stealing? I tell you the truth, they were stealing the lives of other men. If you die a slave to Christ, you will forever be a slave to Christ. If you die a slave to the world, you will always be a slave to the world, until God sets us all free after Final Judgement.

But Christ is beloved of God! Christ died so all men might live and know God's love! He does not need a slave! He wants love, and love is not slavery, but freedom.

If you die a slave to God, you will forever be a slave to God, but if you die a slave to no man but yourself, you will always be a slave only to yourself and will enter into the Kingdom as a free man if you have FAITH (love) in GOD.

logical7

not really true. Its a completely sound and understandable question. A rhetorical one. It is conclusive too.
If i say, "why ask me this? Only God knows the truth" does it mean that it can be inferred that i may be god?!!

The inference is from the Gospel of Luke read as a whole. It is perfectly obvious that the author believes that Jesus is divine, and that the author tells this incident to further his narrative purpose, which purpose is stated at the very outset of Luke. Under the circumstances, then, as between two ordinary readings of the incident:

1) That Jesus is asking questions in hopes of eliciting from the other participant an affirmation of his divinity, but the other person declines to pursue the conversation when he realizes the enormity of acknowledging aloud the actual meaning of what he has already said about Jesus; or

2) Jesus has decided to make a definitive statement of his non-divinity, and has chosen to do that by asking questions that are left unexplained and unanswered (and no, the question is not rhetorical, because we know for a fact that the author who is telling us the story would answer Jesus' question by affirming "Yes, of course, that's why I called you 'good,' because you are God.")

The second reading can only be held by discarding the rest of the work from which you or Scorpie cherry-picked it. It is unavailing to propose as an analysis what the question would mean if you asked it; since we can all agree that you aren't God, nor are you otherwise the subject of any sacred narrative.
-

reply to post by DarknStormy

If you wish not to believe that Jesus is God Incarnate ... that's your choice.
However, I DO believe that Jesus came from Heaven and that He is God.

If you wish to believe that Muhammad was a great guy ... that's your choice.
However, I DO believe (based on the historical evidence) that Muhammad was a thug and a liar.

To use your thought process .. what makes more sense .... That God (Jesus) would come to earth and teach the people how to behave and He did this by setting a great example ... or .... that Muhammad, who was a thief and a murdering politician, would supposedly be getting 'revelations' from God telling him to set up a new religion with himself (Muhammad) at the top of the food chain and all the while Muhammad continued to be a thief and a murderer??

I'll take Jesus. If you want Muhammad ... you can have him. No thanks.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
But now what your saying is a miracle because how does an illiterate person steal something that has already been written when he cannot read and write?

Dude ... those stories had been around for thousands of years. He'd heard them over and over. Everyone had. Heck .. even today people who can't read or write will say that they are 'in 7th heaven' when happy ... but they don't know that the phrase comes from ancient Summeria. There was no miracle to Muhammad taking the stories he had heard since he was a kid and rewriting them ... POORLY rewriting them at that. He dictated what he had heard .. misquoting the stories ... NO MIRACLE.

Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make GOD kill Jesus? (Or allow him to be killed by failure to stop the people who denied the truth of what Jesus spoke).

What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make God kill all the innocent Christian martyrs through the past two thousand years? Allow them to be killed by the Romans in the arena .. killed by Muslims throughout the Middle East and Persia and Europe and Africa. What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make God kill all the innocent children in war zones through all the years? What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make God kill 6 million innocent Jews in WWII death camps .. as well as the millions upon millions of other innocent people killed by the Nazis? What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make God kill .... etc etc

God has not stopped the killing of innocent people and truth telling people for as long as people have been on this planet. Jesus suffered the same fate as the rest of them. He is the suffering servant of God. (See Isaiah) Jesus died for the truth. His followers are many times asked to do the same. If the followers are called to be willing to die for truth, then the head guy in charge should be willing to do the same. Right?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by DarknStormy
But now what your saying is a miracle because how does an illiterate person steal something that has already been written when he cannot read and write?

Dude ... those stories had been around for thousands of years. He'd heard them over and over. Everyone had. Heck .. even today people who can't read or write will say that they are 'in 7th heaven' when happy ... but they don't know that the phrase comes from ancient Summeria. There was no miracle to Muhammad taking the stories he had heard since he was a kid and rewriting them ... POORLY rewriting them at that. He dictated what he had heard .. misquoting the stories ... NO MIRACLE.

edit on 3/20/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

So if that can apply to Islam, then why can't the same apply to the bible? What if its just someones bs story from long ago with a twist of magic added to it? I'm sure the Jesus story can be explained with logic and hand me down stories also. One could also ask why certain books/writings were banned from the bible? Doesn't that tell you people picked and chose what they wanted you too see?

Originally posted by DarknStormy
So if that can apply to Islam, then why can't the same apply to the bible?

Definately. Adam and Eve ... Noahs Ark ... etc ... absolutely. It's easy to see the Summerian myths in them that the Jews rewrote them as their own.

I'm sure the Jesus story can be explained with logic and hand me down stories also.

The New Testament is new. It wasn't handed down or rewritten from stories that were thousands of years old like the Qu'ran and lots of the Old Testament. If you can explain away .. with logic ... Jesus being murdered and buried in front of many, many witness' and then Him rising from the dead on his own accord .. then knock yourself out and give it a try. He was dead. The earth shook. There were many witness'. Then three days later He was alive and in a glorified body that went through walls and traveled distances at the blink of an eye. Hundreds of witness' saw these things. And the events were quickly recorded.

One could also ask why certain books/writings were banned from the bible? Doesn't that tell you people picked and chose what they wanted you too see

Definately. The council in the 300's decided what was believable and what wasn't. We have a copy of 'The Other Bible' in our house. The stories that the council decided were not believable. Some of the stories are silly. Some are very interesting.

In the end, people have to decide for themselves what is believable and what isn't. For me .. It is very believable that God came down from Heaven and became one of us to show us how He wants us to live. He gave His life in suffering and agony because He expects us to do the same to witness to truth. He couldn't ask us to do that and not be willing to do it Himself. If He did ask it of us but wouldn't be willing to do it Himself .. then He wouldn't be a God worthy of respect.

You buy what Muhammad was selling? That's your business. I definately do NOT.
There was nothing miraculous or heavenly or believable about Muhammad.
And Sharia is bad for the world. BAD BAD BAD. It dumbs people down.

I believe Jesus is God Incarnate.
I see that belief as very logical and uplifting for humanity.
(NOT christian fundamentalism. The belief that Jesus is God incarnate)

reply to post by eight bits

The inference is from the Gospel of Luke read as a whole. It is perfectly obvious that the author believes that Jesus is divine, and that the author tells this incident to further his narrative purpose, which purpose is stated at the very outset of Luke.

well yes, i agree with you. The question however is not what luke believes, luke is not even an eyewitness, he is a student of paul who is also not an eyewitness. It doesnt matter if luke worships paul or thinks him as god.

The question is of reporting of "quotes" by Jesus pbuh.

The quotes i put were from Mark including the one in discussion. luke seems to just copy them from earlier gospels and slip his own belief too.
The discussion is not what christians believe or what luke believes, its about what Jesus pbuh said.
He may have said "me and my Father are one"
christians interpret it as "me and my Father are 'same'"
that could be a very wrong interpretation because Jesus pbuh may not have meant that at all.

We muslims are free to question the meanings imposed on ambiguous and in this case a clear rhetorical quote.
These meanings were put after Jesus pbuh ascended, so the arguement that he said them with this meaning seems very weak. He is not here to confirm or deny.
All christians are relying on luke and paul to have their belief under an assumption that Jesus pbuh approved it!!
The faith rests on honesty/belief of these earlier gospel/NT writers.
It would be a disservice to Jesus pbuh to believe these meanings blindly, he actually warned against it. He is clear of any responsibility after that.
Its actually a responsibility of every christian to question the official(nicene) stand, they can't assume Jesus pbuh approved of it and come to a shocking realisation only at judgement day!!

reply to post by FlyersFan


I have nothing against our religion... But I also have nothing against Islam either and believe that people can learn a lot from it. I don't look at the media outlets depicting drugged up extremists who barely represent the entire Muslim population or Christian websites who main objective is to demonise the teaching. Until you read it yourself or at least understand the concept, you shouldn't judge it.. Both have stories about bloodshed, for all you know, Mohammed could of been slaying the very people who hung Jesus. What if the politicians in the day were one step worse than what we have today? There are so many different angles which could be presented.

reply to post by FlyersFan

He was dead. The earth shook. There were many witness'.

did this also happen?

Matt 27:50-54 “Jesus, when he had
cried again with a loud voice, yielded
up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of
the temple was rent in twain from the
top to the bottom; and the earth did
quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many
bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his
resurrection, and went into the holy
city, and appeared unto many. Now
when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw
the earthquake, and those things that
were done, they feared greatly,
saying, Truly this was the Son of God.”

it would be a terrifying historical event to see dead men walking around. Right?
Do other gospels mention it? Any roman records of it?

Hundreds of witness' saw these
things.

NO, its just written that hundreds of witness' saw it. A big difference.

Definately. The council in the 300's
decided what was believable and
what wasn't.

hmm.. So the council decided that he is god is believable yet other stories are silly!!? What could be more unbelievable than the idea that he is god? It doesnt make sense. Unless some stories contradicted the official stories and had to be edited out.
Out of 11 disciples only Mark was inspired by the Spirit to write the gospel? What about the other 10 gospels?
Why limit to an edited compilation to form life altering beliefs, thats too much trust on The Council!!