Is it possible to be a Christian and a believer in Islam?

reply to post by FlyersFan


The Gospel of Thomas(Jesuses twin Brother)

Notice how he also mentions paradise in the writings.

Sacred texts

The website has various texts which may of been omitted or simply lost. As for the other book about James, it doesn't seem to be there though I have seen a documentary which does go to the place where this book is kept.



The book suggests that the earlier Christians and Jews did NOT see Jesus as the Son of God.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Says the muslim who's religion demands the death of so-called infidels

Have me or any of the muslims on ATS called for the deaths of non-muslims?
No. So that was a worthless and pointless statement.

Of course you won't say that on ATS. you'd be banned. I said THE RELIGION says it.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.
(and no .. that's not defensive ... that's offensive)

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

But Christians believe God begat his son with Mary's involvement...making it look as if God took Mary for a wife.

No it doesn't. Mary had Joseph as her spouse. He knew that she was carrying the Son of God. He's the foster father. God has no need of 'a wife' to procreate children. Thinking that He needs 'a wife' is, once again, earthbound in thought.

Not sex, but the Christian belief that God had His "son" with Mary implies that God and Mary were in some sort of a bizarre "husband-wife" kind of relationship.

Not even close.

God did not ask Mary for permission to carry Jesus. God sent His angel with the message that...

The Holy Spirit did not overshadow Mary and she did not concieve until AFTER she said 'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said'. God waited until Mary agreed to be the mother of Jesus. She didn't just end up pregnant without giving her permission. That would have been rape.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
You will find the antichrist rises in the West, just like the Koran and the bible seem to both say.

Jesus words on the anti-christ ...

I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. (John 5:43)

If you are talking about Revelation ... I can't buy into Revelation.
I really don't know if it's from God or not. (I kinda' doubt that it is).
And the Qu'ran is just retold from other sources and made up.
It means nothing for me.
From Jesus words about the anti-christ .. it seems that he/she/it could come from anywhere.

Side note - For those into revelation -

Revelation 13:1, "I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."

Revelations 13:2-10: "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Revelation 13:12-17: "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

I don't buy Revelation .. but for the sake of discussion I'll say .. this doesn't sound 'west' to me. It just sounds like it could be anything from anywhere. That's the thing with supposed prophecies like this ... they can be made to fit just about anything.

reply to post by maes2

SIR ... God asks His people to be willing to die for the truth. It is only fitting that He should be willing to do the same and show us that He is willing to do the same. Otherwise, He wouldn't be a God worthy of adoration. Therefore, Jesus came down from Heaven and showed us exactly what God expects and how to live. Jesus being God Incarnate, which the bible and the vast majority of Christians support, does NOT mean that there are multiple Gods. One God .. Three 'persons' or aspects.

The clover leaf. One leaf .. but also three.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
The book suggests that the earlier Christians and Jews did NOT see Jesus as the Son of God.

Thomas was a twin .. but not Jesus twin. He wasn't related to Jesus.
Perhaps the 'Gospel of Thomas' was rejected because it is in direct opposition to
Jewish scripture and Christian Scripture as well as the early and later church fathers.

Too many quotes to post them all here .. but here's the link. Good info -
Jewish Scripture Quotes, Christian Scripture Quotes, Early Church Fathers - all saying that The Messiah (Jesus) is God Incarnate
And we have the bible itself - bible quotes showing Jesus is God

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ok, heres the proof that the Hebrew Bible or the Torah has likely been fabricated to suit Christianity.

In order to understand anything in the Torah one must look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs. The two places that you mentioned are good examples. In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

So there is the first issue I have. Nowhere does it even confirm that Jesus was hung though it does reference that he was caught and maybe tied up. But there are more contradictions from the (Hebrew) Bible which have made their way into the bible.. Actually, heaps of them and whe you read the next piece, you will understand that ancient Jews share a very similar view to modern day Muslims.

1.The Trinity
The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism - that G-d is One. Jews have declared their belief in a single unified G-d twice daily ever since the giving of the Torah at Sinai - almost two thousand years before Christianity.

The trinity suggests a three part deity: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism.

About God manifesting in human form.

1.Physical Manifestation
Christianity believes that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

The Torah states that G-d cannot not take any form.:

"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15)

There is plenty more information at the link.. You will be surprised at how Jews are very similar too Muslims and even today, Jews still do not accept Jesus as their God let alone messenger.

Ask a Rabbi

God did not ask Mary for permission to carry Jesus. God sent His angel with the message that...

a) Mary has found favor with God.
b)That Mary would conceive and give birth to a son.

Luke 1: 38 is Mary's willing acceptance of a proposal made to her by Gabriel, as agent for God, and as one creature to another creature. Nothing happens to Mary before she agrees, which she does after a full disclosure of the terms of the offer. The transaction takes place in human language. When spelling out the terms of a proposal, humans routinely use the future indicative. Nothing in that usage implies that the person being approached cannot decline the offer, or propose a modification.

The usage often reflects the offering party's belief that the offer is an attractive one. Since Mary sees this as the long-awaited fulfillment of the promises to her people (see the Magnificat which follows shortly thereafter), with benefits to her, the belief seems amply justified.

Mary sees it this way because she is Jewish. She worships standing on her feet, not groveling on the ground. She knows she can negotiate with God, or decline him outright. In the event, she likes the deal as proposed, and she accepts it. It's her call.

FlyersFan's summary of the situation, then, is a fair reflection of the pericope. Just to refresh your recollection of that description:

The Holy Spirit did not overshadow Mary and she did not concieve until AFTER she said 'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said'. God waited until Mary agreed to be the mother of Jesus. She didn't just end up pregnant without giving her permission. That would have been rape.

As is so often the case, we need to point out yet again that the text is not dictation from God. Like Mary, Luke is a volunteer. This is Luke's telling of the story, based on what his sources have told him. Reading the story with comprehension, then, requires reading it as the writer's product it is, based on what the writer's intention obviously is.
-

reply to post by FlyersFan


I can agree with you here but there is another way that I see it.. Lets assume that Jesus was a prophet and somewhere along the line someone like the Romans changed the teachings to suit their agenda. This would put the Roman Catholic Church as an Antichrist and this is where I also get confused in Revelation because the Vatican is what seems to be explained..

But with that, when do we ever see the Vatican recited parts of the bible? I see them reciting their own bs messages most of the time.. To me, they believe they are god and they have possibly used the Jesus story to get them to that position in the world right now. If you take a look at some of the policies (if thats what you call them), they are contradicting the very book they are meant to be following. Why is that?

So the Idea is not to take the teachings of Jesus away from anyone because they are great teachings. The question is why do Christians receive a different story while the likes of the ancient Hebrews and possibly the modern day Muslims have a very similar account from different eras of time. Too me, the Romans changed or edited the true story remembering that they were the ones who also killed Jesus.

Thank you for the link and info ...
Let's see .. hmmm ....

In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

Nowhere does it even confirm that Jesus was hung though it does reference that he was caught and maybe tied up.

He was caught .. tied ... hung on a cross. He was immobilized. "Helpless".
I think it's a pretty good match to that prophecy.
You are free to disagree. But I can see it matching pretty darn well.
'A doctor at Calvary' .. it's a book about the crucifixion of Jesus ... written by a doctor.
He says that Jesus HAD to also be tied to the cross or else his flesh would have ripped
through the nails. It's an interesting book. He says that Jesus drown in water and blood
in his lungs from the beatings and crucifixion. That's why when the soldier pierced
Jesus side with a lance, blood and water came forth.

But there are more contradictions from the Bible which have made their way into the bible..

The bible contradicts itself on many occassions.

The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism -

Sure. Of course it does. The Jews and the Muslims reject a Trinity God and the Christians believe it because of the New Testament. The Jews reject the New Testament. The Muslims reject the New Testament. But that doesn't change the fact that the New Testament says that Jesus is God.

I don't know why people are thinking that, for some reason, any belief system has to match the Jewish one. Jewish expectations about God are very different from Christians. It's like the Jewish religion stopped school in 8th grade and the Christian religion went on to graduate from High School or something. The Christian beliefs go deeper than just 'we are Gods chosen people' and 'he'll send a messiah to put us on top of the world'. IMHO

About God manifesting in human form....

Sure. The Jews reject it. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
Lots of religions reject things .. but later on it is found out that they were wrong about it.

"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

Which is why God took human form .. so we could look upon Him. If we saw God in His true form, we would die of happiness. God cloaked Himself in humanity in order to be able to communicate with us lower beings.

You will be surprised at how Jews are very similar too Muslims and even today,

Not surprised at all. I consider the Jews to believe closer to the Muslim religion than
the Christians.

Jews still do not accept Jesus as their God let alone messenger.

Because, believeing that they are 'Gods' Chosen People', they expected a secular 'messiah'.
A worldly one. One that would free them from oppression and death. But instead, God came
as a SPIRITUAL messiah. Which was vastly more important. That's why the Jews reject
Jesus. Because He didn't put them on top of the political food chain.

The Muslims are expecting their Mahdi. They think this fella will put them on top of the
food chain ..politically. If there ever is a Mahdi (and I doubt there will be) and he doesn't
take over the world and make it into a Sharia hell-hole .. the Muslims will reject him
as well.

People come to strongly expect certain things .. things that they want or that they
think should happen. But when God does things differently, they reject it as not
being from God .. even though it is from God. This is how it is with the Jews and
Jesus. They got their Messiah .. but they didn't like what He did (or didn't do)
so they rejected Him.

Originally posted by eight bits
This is Luke's telling of the story, based on what his sources have told him.

Those sources being Mary. She's the only one who could have told him what was in her heart. 'she pondered these things in her heart' ... That HAD to come from Mary. Luke got the story of Jesus birth from Mary. Seems pretty clear to me ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


The Mahdi is not the Antichrist let alone going to elevate the Muslims to the top of the food chain. This is a misinterpretation. If the Mahdi never returns, neither does Jesus... Some believe the Mahdi is the Antichrist, far from the truth. Islam speaks about there own Antichrist annd believe it or not, it points in the same direction as the bible does.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Ahhhhh .. I see where you are going. Okay ... BTW ... Good conversation!

Lets assume that Jesus was a prophet and somewhere along the line someone like the Romans changed the teachings to suit their agenda.

This is just my opinion ... if anything I would think that the gospel writers would have been tempted to water down the stories of Jesus in order to save their own skins. They were being persecuted and would have been afraid for their lives. Instead, we get that Jesus is God Incarnate. That goes against Rome. That goes against Jewish teaching. It went against everything. So for them to put it into writing was rather brave .. in my opinion.

I can understand why you would be concerned about the gospel writers faking the importance of 'their guy'. That is EXACTLY what I see in Islam. Muhammad was no prophet. Seems pretty darn clear to me.

The New Testament teachings are in tact from the original writings at least from the 200's that we know of. During that time Rome wasn't Christian, it was pagan and against the Christians.

This would put the Roman Catholic Church as an Antichrist and this is where I also get confused in Revelation because the Vatican is what seems to be explained..

Sorry .. I can't really follow ... probably because Revelation is such a mess.
Skorpion did a good job with his explaination of Jerusalem being the city on 7 hills.
I still think it could be Rome ... not the Vatican because that's elsewhere .. but Rome.
But I can't follow because Revelation is a freak'n mess as far as I'm concerned.

But with that, when do we ever see the Vatican recited parts of the bible?

Catholics recite two bible readings each day at daily mass. On Sundays, there are three readings. Catholics have scripture AND sacred tradition that is followed. They approve of sacred tradition because scripture itself says to hold on to sacred traditions that have been passed down. etc etc

The question is why do Christians receive a different story while the likes of the ancient Hebrews and possibly the modern day Muslims have a very similar account from different eras of time.

IF I'm following what you are saying (not sure if I am) ... here's my response .... Christians have the New Testament. Jews and Muslims do not. So it's going to be different. The Muslims have a different story because their guy - Muhammad - was just retelling stories that he had heard through his life. And he was retelling them wrong. He got a lot of facts mixed up and he added (embellished) his stories. so that's why the Muslim stories are different.

Too me, the Romans changed or edited the true story remembering that they were the ones who also killed Jesus.

Okay.
To me, the Christians have the historical documents .. the Jews missed their messiah because they were looking for a secular one to make them the top of the food chain but got a spiritual one instead ... and the Muslims are having to use a book (Qu'ran) put together with just bits and pieces of three different religions and a whole lotta other mundane stuff tossed in.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
The Mahdi is not the Antichrist let alone going to elevate the Muslims to the top of the food chain.

The Mahdi is supposed to turn everyone Muslim.
And that would put Islamic nations at the top of the food chain.
That's anti-christ as far as Christians are concerned.

I know that the Mahdi is supposed to supposedly fight against an anti-christ .. with Jesus as his sidekick in the fight. But what the Mahdi would be fighting for ... an Islamic world .. is anti-christ to Christians.

Side note .. no, I don't believe there is a 'Mahdi' on the way.

reply to post by eight bits

Luke is perfectly capable of including or excluding material, according to whether it advances his narrative purpose.

you mean luke can pick and choose any material to forward/suggest his 'opinion'.
A pretty flexible Holy Book i must say, choosing the quotes and incidents that fit the purpose!

So here's the
thing. What the Green Team said was
that the pericope showed Jesus
denying his divinity. So, if the event
didn't happen, whose position is
affected?

the green team suggested that on the assumption that the event happened. If it din't happen then nobody's position is affected. If it has to affect then green team just gets a new point that NT has fabricated stories that din't happen.

I suspect you meant to say something
else, but I'm not going to try to guess
what. The Koran didn't exist until the
Seventh Century, by which time, the
New Testament canon was fixed (plus
or minus some epistles that remain in or out of some churches' canons even
today). So, whatever the New
Testament says about Jesus, it was
saying all along, and still says the same
things.

i meant what i said, Qur'an sheds a new perspective on NT and Jesus pbuh starts appearing as a prophet even in NT.
The excuse that Qur'an is later in time is weak. Jesus pbuh came a lot later than Moses pbuh and jews rejected him as they din't wanted to change their wrong ways and beliefs. It happens, people get stuck with their own prophet and reject the new as they get set in their over the time corrupted beliefs.
Not many have the honesty and the courage to admit that they could be wrong.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Some Shi'as say that the Mahdi will return at the same time as Christ and will point Christ out. They believe that the Antichrist will rise in between Syria and Iraq, this is from the admission of Muslims themselves. As for the Bible, Revelation could be talking about any city simply because many cities sit on Seven Hills. Tehran, Jerusalem, Rome, Moscow, A lot of cities in Europe.. Even Washington could come into the equation though the seven hills aren't all hills. Picking out who the book speaks about is tough because of that.

The Antichrist is going to be someone who deceives everyone and truthfully with the way people like yourself and most other Christians are towards the Koran/Muslims can you see a Muslim deceiving the world? Its impossible.. The Antichrist is going to come from the West. The West in the grand scheme of things are the most powerful and possibly influential. So I don't know how this antichrist will rise in Iran unless we see a similar outcome to Libya or something.. When it comes down to it, the AC will be a western leader, political group, religious group..

Can you see any Muslim declaring themselves God in Jerusalem? Not with Zionist Israel there now. The only group I can see getting close is the Vatican or the USA/Europe.. Remember, it says Rome will be destroyed in revelation so the Vatican is a very strong possibility.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by adjensen

 

I'm sure you have read the Hebrew Bible many times also... Jewish Rabbis even agree that Mohammed was spoken of just like Jesus but when it comes down to it, Jews do not accept the Messiahs of different tribes. I find it Ironic the bible is so accurate yet they didn't see the Islamic prophet coming in the future?

As for your link, its just another christian website who will do anything to discredit any connection with Islam.. Why is it so hard to believe that maybe your religion does share a history with Muslims, you know, since it came from that part of the world in the first place?

Qur'an actually tells this,

2:146. Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him as they recongise
their sons. But verily, a party of them
conceal the truth while they know it.

reply to post by logical7


I really need to take another good look at the Koran because most of my focus has been on the eschatology.. I'm going to be studying over the next year or so for sure..

reply to post by adjensen

However, Christianity is, essentially, a Jewish sect. That's why we include the Hebrew Bible in scripture and look for signs of Christ in its words. Are you claiming that Islam is a Jewish sect, as well?

Is God only God of Jews? Is God Jewish?

67. Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true
Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to
worship none but Allah Alone) and he
was not of Al-Mushrikun (polytheist/associating partners to God).
68. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim (Abraham)
are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad ) and those who have believed. And
Allah is the Wali (Protector and Helper)
of the believers.
69. A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to
lead you astray. But they shall not lead
astray anyone except themselves, and
they perceive not.
70. O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you
disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad present in the Taurat (Torah) and the
Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves)
bear witness (to their truth)."
71. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix
truth with falsehood and conceal the
truth while you know?"

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch

Let me ask you, believers. What, IN ALL OF THE UNIVERSE, could make GOD kill Jesus? (Or allow him to be killed by failure to stop the people who denied the truth of what Jesus spoke. If Jesus was "perfect" or even "good," why would God allow him to deny having committed no transgression of the Law given to Men by God.

Have you ever read Isaiah 53?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
A "father" can't beget a son, without a wife.

He's God, for pete's sakes. Who are you to tell him what he can and can't do?

My logical question would be;

"Why the hell not? He created the universe and laws of physics with a single spoken sentence."