Independence: Curse or Cure?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Everything you know about your god, you got from a pile of obscure documents written by ignorant sheepherders both oppressed by political intrigue and confounded by natural phenomena. You have taken your doctrine from uneducated farmers. Do not act as though you have the slightest bit of credibility in believing such nonsense,

you have a right have any opinion but when you discuss a hypothetical diety with me, at least discuss the one i believe in not the one you make up and fire assumptions that appear ridiculous to me, maybe great points to you but then you are just talking to yourself and i just happen to get caught as an observer in your self gratifying thought play!

The credibility of my belief depends on sound reasoning not any emotions, negative or positive.
Btw farmers and sheepherders are much closer to nature and see the signs of intelligent design better than city dwellers who just see flashing bright lights and geometric man made structures till a natural calamity strikes and destroys their fake sense of independence and humbles them a bit.

Independence will free us from the
necessity of debasing ourselves for
the appeasement of an invisible
perfectionist dictator.

its debasing only if one thinks of himself/herself as highest, has pride and thinks that nobody can be more powerful, in arabic its called 'Takabbur' from the same root comes Akbar(higher/greater) of "Allah hu Akbar"
so basically the person is doing self worship, and as you accept that everyone has unique faults, so worshipping a faulty god(self) is going to lead to faulty actions which obviously appear right to self.

Ah, but that's an earthly example. That
doesn't apply to "God".

So "God" is a vicious carnivorous
feline?

We're discussing sentient beings here.
Animals have nothing to do with it, so
stay on topic.

you are smart enough to understand what i meant, you can keep the debate points. I am not interested in my score.

You are weak enough to sell your soul
for emotional security.

i am smart enough to know i have been created and also able to accept that i am indeed weak in comparison to the Creator.
You believe in a soul? I guess you are just a collective group of neurons firing in harmony to give you conciousness which will cease to exist when the brain dies.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by wildtimes

 

It doesn't matter what name you come up with, a real-life counterpart has existed at one time or another. Hell, there's five accounts on Facebook registered under my name - one lives in England, though I've never even set foot outside of America!

I was going to tell you about that but it slipped my mind; should have mispelled something to clue me in. Five in fact for sure, (get on that ball before it multiplies).

reply to post by logical7


So you don't desire any kind of spiritual independence? You want to remain an emotional slave to a being who is more interested in being glorified than taking responsibility for the world? Because that's the impression I got from the author of the book, and that's the impression I'm getting from you.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

So you don't desire any kind of spiritual independence? You want to remain an emotional slave to a being who is more interested in being glorified than taking responsibility for the world? Because that's the impression I got from the author of the book, and that's the impression I'm getting from you.

to be very frank i don't really agree with the book.
The impression you get from me is that way because you don't know the God i believe in.
God does not want to be glorified for His sake.
Spirituality without eternal existence?!!!
You confuse me about what your stand is.
If you think of me as a brain washed fanatic then you are free to do so, but i can tell you that i have asked myself similar questions that you do and believe in God because they were satisfactorily answered.
But you would have to wipe out the OT and NT idea of God and then we can discuss because when you throw arguements about God, i kind of agree with you that its not a perfect God.
Every creation glorifies the Creator by its mere existence, a bird signs not for getting fame but to just do what it was made to do and you can see that around you if you pause to see and hear.
Thats independence for me, is it to you too?
Are you aware of your own unique purpose or pushing yourself to become an assembly line student, employee, bf, husband, dad and then die?
The Purpose of a nightingale and an eagle is not the same.
The same is true for each human but sadly most will get stuck in the rat race.
Having the emotional security by God, liberates from the trivial daily worries and gives a springboard to discover those unique talents/purpose.

reply to post by logical7

to be very frank i don't really agree with the book.
The impression you get from me is that way because you don't know the God i believe in.

Hard to do when 400 denominations stand as testament to the fact that no one can agree on the exact parameters of either the god they believe in or the doctrines he holds so dear. If it were truly so clear cut, there would be only one church, one denomination, and one faith.

God does not want to be glorified for His sake.
Spirituality without eternal existence?!!!
You confuse me about what your stand is.

You don't have to be immortal to be spiritual. In fact, mortality, finiteness, would only emphasize spirituality. You have a limited number of years to appreciate the majestic beauty of the world you live in. You don't have time for petty arguments, you have a life to live. As exemplified in The Bucket List, there's nothing more motivating than death. People don't appreciate death nearly enough. Killing has become too easy, and life too cheap and misdirected.

Bull freaking crap he doesn't want to be glorified. If you do not recognize him, he does not recognize you. If you do not worship him, he does not care about you. If you do not give him your soul, he will take your soul anyway and consign it to an eternity of torture. And even that is debated amongst the private sects of religious counsel.

If you think of me as a brain washed fanatic then you are free to do so, but i can tell you that i have asked myself similar questions that you do and believe in God because they were satisfactorily answered.

What questions did you ask yourself? What answers did you find?

But you would have to wipe out the OT and NT idea of God and then we can discuss because when you throw arguements about God, i kind of agree with you that its not a perfect God.

Do that, and you have eliminated the entire basis for Christianity. In that tact, believing in a god makes a little bit more sense, because at that point, your god is not a Judaic god.

Every creation glorifies the Creator by its mere existence, a bird signs not for getting fame but to just do what it was made to do and you can see that around you if you pause to see and hear.

I give credit where it is due. I don't thank Jesus or "God" for my meal, I thank the immigrants who harvested it, the factory workers who processed and packaged it, the shipping industry that transported it, the people that unloaded and stocked it, and the clerk who rang it up. If I want to get really deep, I can thank their parents for getting drunk that night and forgetting the pills and rubbers. Then I can thank the employers responsible for paying them just enough money to survive, but not enough money to afford an abortion.

Thats independence for me, is it to you too?

Independence is doing what makes me happy. Independence is being my own god, making my own miracles. Independence is operating by my own power. I don't want to be judged. I want to be accepted. I don't want to serve. I want to share...on equal terms.

Are you aware of your own unique purpose or pushing yourself to become an assembly line student, employee, bf, husband, dad and then die?

I make my own purpose.

The Purpose of a nightingale and an eagle is not the same.

It is not your place to decide their purpose. The only purpose you really should decide is your own. The only purpose you have the right to decide is your own.

The same is true for each human but sadly most will get stuck in the rat race.
Having the emotional security by God, liberates from the trivial daily worries and gives a springboard to discover those unique talents/purpose.

Perhaps, but in being my own god, I suddenly find I have much more to work with. If you don't want trivial daily worries, then take care of them. If you want a springboard to discover those unique talents, then explore. You don't seem to realize that everything your god does for you, you can do for yourself. It seems you don't trust yourself with that kind of position. Maybe you should try it.

If I missed it, I apologize, but I do not see a clear definition of "independence" as you are using in the thread title. If this is basically an extension of your Love vs.Tyranny thread, then I have a good idea of your position - but please define independence as you are using it here.

The reason I ask, and as other people here are indicating, you cannot actually be completely independent. Your body-mind is utterly dependent on its environment to even survive, and if you look at our situation, we arise in a vast field of relatedness - not independence. Relatedness is obvious - we breathe the same air, etc., etc. What anyone does can affect many others, even the whole.

To declare oneself independent of a God-idea is fine, but you make it sound like you are declaring yourself independent of Reality Itself, unless of course you have clearly defined your terms.

reply to post by bb23108

If I missed it, I apologize, but I do not see a clear definition of "independence" as you are using in the thread title. If this is basically an extension of your Love vs.Tyranny thread, then I have a good idea of your position - but please define independence as you are using it here.

Spiritual independence. Anchor ourselves in our own power and capability, instead of relying on an outside power to determine our destiny. I would call it "spiritual osmosis" - just as the power of nations is balanced between the leader and his people, so should the power of our lives be balanced between whatever spiritual icon you hold dear and your own soul.

The reason I ask, and as other people here are indicating, you cannot actually be completely independent. Your body-mind is utterly dependent on its environment to even survive, and if you look at our situation, we arise in a vast field of relatedness - not independence. Relatedness is obvious - we breathe the same air, etc., etc. What anyone does can affect many others.

My environment does not determine my path in life. I could walk away from where I live. I could walk up to a random stranger and plant a knife in their back. I could jump off of a bridge. I could set a building on a fire and get killed in a gun fight with the local law enforcement. My environment does not determine my choices. It may influence them, but I can ignore such influences. We all can. We choose not to, because we would prefer to take the easier, more conducive road. But never has change occurred without having to beat a few bushes and perhaps climb a mountain or two.

To declare oneself independent of a God-idea is fine, but you make it sound like you are declaring yourself independent of Reality Itself, unless of course you have clearly defined your terms.

Remember the portion about sharing versus serving? That's what I'm talking about. Declaring independence and becoming a partner rather than one of the night stock who is victim to the fickle balance of economic and political games that could throw you into chaos at any moment. Because apparently, according to the author, we are the peons of our own companies.

Okay, thanks for that clarification. Given your definition though, I would think "true discrimination" would be a much better description. Independence tends to be what adolescents do, some even blindly doing, in reaction to authority. (Obviously there are exceptions to this use of the word independence, but this is true enough to be brought to the table.)

True discrimination enables you to fully consider a situation or matter, spiritual or otherwise, and draw firm conclusions based on that fully open inspection of it altogether - and then change your life based on those conclusions.

Independence may connote a kind of close-mindedness, especially if that independence is based on a presumption of separation rather than one's inherent relatedness.

reply to post by bb23108

Okay, thanks for that clarification. Given your definition though, I would think "true discrimination" would be a much better description. Independence tends to be what adolescents do, some even blindly doing, in reaction to authority.

Is that what America did? Sometimes, a different way of life is a good thing. Just because you began one way, doesn't mean another way can't work out just as well, or even better.

Whereas true discrimination enables you to fully consider a situation or matter, spiritual or otherwise, and draw firm conclusions based on that fully open inspection of it altogether - and then change your life based on those conclusions.

You mean the kind of true discrimination mentioned in the Bible? I believe it was Paul who mentioned it, primarily.

Independence may connote a kind of close-mindedness, especially if that independence is based on a presumption of separation rather than one's inherent relatedness.

No. Independence strikes you as closed-minded because it leaves you with both the option of acceptance, the option of reservation, or the option of rejection, something you're not comfortable with given the subject matter. Having those choices available is true freedom, true independence. To be treated as an equal, rather than a child to be commanded and condescended to.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by bb23108

 

Is that what America did? Sometimes, a different way of life is a good thing. Just because you began one way, doesn't mean another way can't work out just as well, or even better.

As I already said, there are exceptions, but you do tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Oh wait, you are being independent!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
You mean the kind of true discrimination mentioned in the Bible? I believe it was Paul who mentioned it, primarily.

I am speaking about a function of the intellect that can discern between various considerations and make completely informed decisions. I think you know this, but wait, you are being independent again and not wanting to hear what I am saying!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
No. Independence strikes you as closed-minded because it leaves you with both the option of acceptance, the option of reservation, or the option of rejection, something you're not comfortable with given the subject matter.

And what do you think discrimination does? It rightly considers and chooses between any options. I am not comfortable with what subject matter? That is a very presumptuous statement you are making.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Having those choices available is true freedom, true independence. To be treated as an equal, rather than a child to be commanded and condescended to.

I have no argument with you here about requiring the freedom to make these choices. But that is not independence - it is simply freedom. Again, independence can connote a separative mentality. But you don't want to hear this, so that is that, I guess.

Real discrimination shows one that we are not independent of being utterly related.

You see, you did not apparently use any real discrimination when reading my post. You simply slammed out another bunch of independent defenses and this is exactly what adolescent emotion does. You say you want to consider things, but given the many posts of yours I have read, you really don't seem to have the freedom to do so - i.e., the free attention to fully consider the matter at hand.

reply to post by bb23108

As I already said, there are exceptions, but you do tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Oh wait, you are being independent!

And you tend to lose the baby in the bathwater too. Maybe you should use a little less water. It's only a baby, after all.

I am speaking about a function of the intellect that can discern between various considerations and make completely informed decisions. I think you know this, but wait, you are being independent again and not wanting to hear what I am saying!

"Independent" is not a buzzword you can use to insult me, although if you want to resort to such immature tactics, I won't be surprised.

And the reason I asked is because I did a quick Google search and found this. Except for a reference to an essay featuring St. Paul. That's why I mentioned it. I can't imagine why you would put your question so rudely, though. All you had to do was ask.

And what do you think discrimination does? It rightly considers and chooses between any options. I am not comfortable with what subject matter? That is a very presumptuous statement you are making.

Discrimination is a double edged sword that has found both destructive ends and constructive ends. I am hesitant to apply that word in any sense of its definition.

Presumptuous? For being me presumptuous, you are making a lot of assumptions about how I think and how I should think. Here I am, upholding the American legacy of independence, and you degrade me for daring to think freely. You seem to think freedom is a perfect price to pay for peace of mind.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Thomas Jefferson

Such a wise man, Mr. Jefferson.

I have no argument with you here about requiring the freedom to make these choices. But that is not independence - it is simply freedom. Again, independence can connote a separative mentality. But you don't want to hear this, so that is that, I guess.

And if I made the choice to deny your god's agenda, to forge my own destiny, would I be able to do so with impunity?

You see, you did not apparently use any real discrimination when reading my post. You simply slammed out another bunch of independent defenses and this is exactly what adolescent emotion does.

dis·crim·i·na·tion
/disˌkriməˈnāSHən/
Noun

The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.

This is what discrimination is. How am I failing to discriminate here? Perhaps you should explain yourself before you begin attack me personally.

You say you want to consider things, but given the many posts of yours I have read, you really don't seem to have the freedom to do so - i.e., the free attention to fully consider the matter at hand.

What have I not considered? You have failed to defend your point of view to my satisfaction. If you do not want to be challenged, this thread is not the place to be.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by bb23108

 

And if I made the choice to deny your god's agenda, to forge my own destiny, would I be able to do so with impunity?

You obviously do not read my posts or understand them if you think I have ever spoken about some Divine agenda.

Independence is an idealistic state of mind you are holding up to idolize but it is not real. You can presume it is real all you want because you are free to do that. You see, you have already come to your conclusion - and that apparently is that spiritual independence is the American way.

If you have already decided this is what is true for you, then fine. But that state has nothing to do with one's intellectual capacity to be truly discriminating in terms of what is truth and what is not. I keep thinking it is truth that you are interested in, but it seems that you are most interested in defending your so-called independence. That is fine too, and I won't argue with you further on this matter.

P.S. I obviously am put off by your quick response/style sometimes. I was speaking about the word "independence" to begin with, and how I thought "true discrimination" better fit your elaboration I had requested. I was talking about words, not you. But when you basically quickly discounted what I said and then said what I quoted below, basically presuming wrongly about me, I decided to make those remarks about you. I do apologize for the misunderstanding about the Bible quote - I thought you were being off-putting relative to what I obviously meant by "true discrimination" (note the word "true" was always used), and I see I was mistaken about that part.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by bb23108

 

No. Independence strikes you as closed-minded because it leaves you with both the option of acceptance, the option of reservation, or the option of rejection, something you're not comfortable with given the subject matter. Having those choices available is true freedom, true independence. To be treated as an equal, rather than a child to be commanded and condescended to.

reply to post by bb23108

You obviously do not read my posts or understand them if you think I have ever spoken about some Divine agenda.

Yeah? The Bible clearly says he was the first thing to exist, and that he created everything, and he knows everything that will ever happen. It has established this numerous times. What gives you the idea there is no "Divine Agenda"? That is logically impossible, given what the Bible has told us.

Independence is an idealistic state of mind you are holding up to idolize but it is not real. You can presume it is real all you want because you are free to do that. You see, you have already come to your conclusion - and that apparently is that spiritual independence is the American way.

No...spiritual independence is the human way. You see it all around you. What you call "American" happens all over the world, in all nationalities. People deciding they just don't need a god anymore. And they still manage to live a wonderful life. Huh...how about that?

Independence is as real as suffering, struggling, triumphant, and confident self-esteem will ever be.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Yeah? The Bible clearly says he was the first thing to exist, and that he created everything, and he knows everything that will ever happen. It has established this numerous times. What gives you the idea there is no "Divine Agenda"? That is logically impossible, given what the Bible has told us.

Okay, but you said "my god's agenda" as though I was defending the God of the Bible. You should know by now that I have posted often about the myth of the Creator God or Super-Entity believed to be Divinely Causing all things,etc. I have often stated this myth is born of the same myth that creates the ego-I, based on the moment to moment process of separating from all others, the world, and the Divine - i.e., a futile gesture to achieve independence.

So it now seems that you are saying that we should only consider the Creator God-Idea of the Bible just like on the Love vs. Tyranny thread? If so, that should be defined in terms of what you are wanting to consider on this thread.

Because you somehow always seem to assume that when I speak about the Divine that I am talking about a Creator-God - I can therefore only assume you do not read or understand my posts.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
No...spiritual independence is the human way. You see it all around you. What you call "American" happens all over the world, in all nationalities. People deciding they just don't need a god anymore. And they still manage to live a wonderful life. Huh...how about that?

Independence is as real as suffering, struggling, triumphant, and confident self-esteem will ever be.

I agree whole-heartedly that people must transcend their childhood illusions relative to some super-God that is in charge and is going to take care of them like Santa Claus or whatever.

But I also understand that simply reacting to these childhood illusions and declaring one's spiritual independence are signs of the next phase of growth in becoming fully human and capable of real love. Yes it is very good, having truly gained some distance on the childhood illusions of a Santa Claus-God through true discrimination - but this should not end the consideration of whether the Divine exists or not.

This break from the mythology of the Creator-God simply may allow for some free attention to fully consider whether the Divine actually exists, though not causally related to what is arising. How about the consideration that what is arising is simply an endless diversity of modifications of Conscious Light? Is this perhaps true? Various acknowledged realizers in various traditions all say something along these lines - as now do some scientists via Quantum theory.

Anyway, isn't it best to simply remain open to what reality actually IS before declaring we are all best off as independent? Nothing in this world supports the idea that real independence can even exist, as we inherently arise in a condition of relatedness.

So I cannot really answer your question if independence is a curse or cure because it is just a concept that does not exist in reality. However, I can clearly state that the attempt to be completely independent is based on the illusion that we are altogether separate ego-I's.

Is spiritual independence conducive to real love? When you love someone altogether whole-bodily, are you actually independent in that love embrace? No, because you feel completely bonded, sharing altogether, and the separative boundaries are released.

Or are you declaring you are spiritually independent (and perhaps independent of your intimate) because you are not dependent on them for your integrity and happiness? If this is the case, that is very very good, as we should not depend on others fo make us happy. What a terrible burden to place on someone we love - the burden to make us happy!

But this is simply realizing we are whole-bodily happy because we have grown up beyond the childhood and adolescent reactions to be dependent/independent, and we recognize the body-mind arises in a field of infinite relatedness. Then real love awakens, but not dependent on another to feel it, though certainly able to express it with one's intimate most fully.

reply to post by bb23108

So it now seems that you are saying that we should only consider the Creator God-Idea of the Bible just like on the Love vs. Tyranny thread? If so, that should be defined in terms of what you are wanting to consider on this thread.

I started this discussion because of a book I read. That book was written by a Christian touting Christian philosophy. I am questioning that philosophy now, challenging it. If you want to discuss other religions, keep them relevant or go visit a relevant thread.

I didn't think I had to remind you to stay on topic.

Because you somehow always seem to assume that when I speak about the Divine that I am talking about a Creator-God - I can therefore only assume you do not read or understand my posts.

I can only assume you did not read or understand the terms and conditions of your membership here. This thread is concerned with the validity of Christian doctrine and its effects on the human psychological condition. If you want to talk about something else, go somewhere else.

So I cannot really answer your question if independence is a curse or cure because it is just a concept that does not exist in reality. However, I can clearly state that the attempt to be completely independent is based on the illusion that we are altogether separate ego-I's.

Independence doesn't exist in reality? Does that mean the Declaration of Independence is worthless? If we can express a concept, if we can recognize it, then it exists in some capacity, even if it is unrealistic or fictional. I happen to believe that independence is very real. And while we are stuck in these corporeal organic manifestations, independence should have a priority. Independence is inherent in autonomy - unless you think we aren't autonomous organisms?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I started this discussion because of a book I read. That book was written by a Christian touting Christian philosophy. I am questioning that philosophy now, challenging it. If you want to discuss other religions, keep them relevant or go visit a relevant thread.

Your main question and even the thread title was about independence. After asking you for more clarification, you obviously want to keep the consideration very limited to the Creator-God ideas of the Christian Bible just like your Love vs. Tyranny thread.

So now I can only assume this thread is basically the same topic as that prior thread - one that you feel very righteous about and particularly want Christians to challenge you so you can make the various points you made on your last thread.

I had hoped you would want to consider this matter of independence in a way that might serve one's spiritual process rather than it mainly being about you wanting to continue with your hunt for more Christian prey - as you described yourself doing at one point in the last thread.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I didn't think I had to remind you to stay on topic.

Make your thread's topic and its parameters clearer then. You said "Independence: Curse or Cure". You did not say "Independence from the Christian God - Curse or Cure". Nowhere is this very clear - until I asked you about it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I can only assume you did not read or understand the terms and conditions of your membership here. This thread is concerned with the validity of Christian doctrine and its effects on the human psychological condition. If you want to talk about something else, go somewhere else.

Same answer as above.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Independence doesn't exist in reality? Does that mean the Declaration of Independence is worthless?

You said you were talking about one's spiritual independence and I challenged that presumption. Your response to that was your second attempt here at trying to make me sound unpatriotic - which is a pretty pathetic retort on your part.

Instead of playing "gotcha" games, why didn't you respond directly to what I said about independence in terms of relationship, inherent relatedness, egoity, and childish dependence vs. adolescent independence? This is the independence that is relevant in terms of one's actual spirituality, so I thought that was what we were speaking of.

But yes, I should go elsewhere as this is going nowhere between us. I actually decided against my better judgement to respond to your posts today because someone who cares about you wrote me and asked me to continue.

Take care, AfterInfinity.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Hard to do when 400 denominations stand as testament to the fact that no one can agree on the exact parameters of either the god they believe in or the doctrines he holds so dear. If it were truly so clear cut, there would be only one church, one denomination, and one faith.

you are choosing to discuss with me not the 400 denominations and you should not whine about things that are not the topic, that just distracts you.
how would you like if i regularly complain to you about an atheist/agnostic and his stupid ideas and make it a part of each post

What questions did you ask yourself?
What answers did you find?

many, like whats free will and is it just an illusion? ,why eternal hell for some? ,why are we created? , why God just did not asbstain from creating the ones destined for hell? Etc
i can't tell what answers i got to them in one post.
The pre-requisite to get the answers is humility and accepting that we are a tiny part of a whole.

Do that, and you have eliminated the
entire basis for Christianity. In that tact,
believing in a god makes a little bit
more sense, because at that point,
your god is not a Judaic god.

God is just One, He is the God of atheist and polytheists too. You may rather say that i don't exactly believe in the judaic 'idea' of God.

I give credit where it is due. I don't
thank Jesus or "God" for my meal, I
thank the immigrants who harvested
it, the factory workers who processed
and packaged it, the shipping industry
that transported it, the people that unloaded and stocked it, and the clerk
who rang it up. If I want to get really
deep, I can thank their parents for
getting drunk that night and
forgetting the pills and rubbers. Then I
can thank the employers responsible for paying them just enough money to
survive, but not enough money to
afford an abortion.

who made the crops grow out of the planted seeds? Who gave you the brain to think the ideas above? Not you, neither the parents, they just caused you.

Independence is doing what makes
me happy. Independence is being my
own god

self worship is dangerous as i pointed before. You don't have a objective reference. It just becomes avoiding pain and seeking pleasure(happiness) and you get coloured like the society around you. Its just Confirmity. Morality may or may not be upheld during confirmity. The level to which you go against confirmity is the level of objective knowledge you have about right&wrong and the ability to sacrifice happiness if required.

In short, in an unfair world you can be 'always' happy only if you ignore and maybe even do wrong to self and/or to others.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

What questions did you ask yourself? What answers did you find?

logical7
many, like whats free will and is it just an illusion? ,why eternal hell for some? ,why are we created? , why God just did not asbstain from creating the ones destined for hell? Etc
i can't tell what answers i got to them in one post.
The pre-requisite to get the answers is humility and accepting that we are a tiny part of a whole.

I have wondered about the subject of 'shortcuts' God could have implemented; how about no human specie at all, just very intelligent plant life (maybe some old sage wisdom speaker rock formations named Francis 'call me Fred' for short).

afterinfinity
Do that, and you have eliminated the entire basis for Christianity. In that tact, believing in a god makes a little bit more sense, because at that point, your god is not a Judaic god.

Sensible Idea, ANY self proclaimed God should be crucified (which is why IT is still hiding out there in the weeds waiting to see which nearby farmhouse it can raid for breakfast eggs).

logical7
God is just One, He is the God of atheist and polytheists too. You may rather say that i don't exactly believe in the judaic 'idea' of God.

God is ALL. God is a bad boy God is a Good boy. God GETS THE FREE RIDE as it is already in some form of paradise of its own design no one can touch or change. Imagine the power this brings or the misuse of. God is hilarious. Independence, Curse or Cure; both and niether. You separate yourself from an "UNKNOWN quantity"; thinking 'freedom is at hand' foolish to even contemplate. You designate curse (upon yourself unknowingly) and become enslaved to an unformed idea; very dangerous; and or cure yourself of SOMETHING ill defined again, non specific. You realize with such vague language (your thought process) you could be inviting unwanted totally unanticipated consequences.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Just stop trying to answer me. It tempts me to take you seriously, and then I am forced to examine your posts repeatedly before resigning myself for the umpteenth time to the realization that you once again make no sense at all.

reply to post by logical7

you are choosing to discuss with me not the 400 denominations and you should not whine about things that are not the topic, that just distracts you.
how would you like if i regularly complain to you about an atheist/agnostic and his stupid ideas and make it a part of each post

The section you quoted says nothing about being off topic.

many, like whats free will and is it just an illusion? ,why eternal hell for some? ,why are we created? , why God just did not asbstain from creating the ones destined for hell? Etc
i can't tell what answers i got to them in one post.
The pre-requisite to get the answers is humility and accepting that we are a tiny part of a whole.

You mean the prerequisite to getting the answers is the willingness to stop asking questions.

God is just One, He is the God of atheist and polytheists too. You may rather say that i don't exactly believe in the judaic 'idea' of God.

Same thing. So you are opposed to the idea of spiritual independence? Of the ability to choose to either share or walk away without punishment?

who made the crops grow out of the planted seeds? Who gave you the brain to think the ideas above? Not you, neither the parents, they just caused you.

My father's sperm fertilized one of my mother's eggs. That egg then multiplied, and became a clusters of cells that continued to expand until the genetic programming organized the cells into their respective forms and categories in order to create a functional and cohesive zygote that continued to develop into a human baby. That's called biology, not "God".

self worship is dangerous as i pointed before. You don't have a objective reference. It just becomes avoiding pain and seeking pleasure(happiness) and you get coloured like the society around you. Its just Confirmity. Morality may or may not be upheld during confirmity. The level to which you go against confirmity is the level of objective knowledge you have about right&wrong and the ability to sacrifice happiness if required.

In short, in an unfair world you can be 'always' happy only if you ignore and maybe even do wrong to self and/or to others.

I wouldn't call it worship. I would call it veneration. Self-respect. Otherwise known as self-esteem. Confidence that you can do whatever you set your mind to. Confidence that if you need a miracle, you can make one. Confidence that no hurdle is too great for you, and no dream too far away. Confidence that you are your first and foremost ally, and always will be.