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Judge: Feds Can’t Make Domino’s Founder Offer Birth Control

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posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by Helious
 





My point of contention is that the pill that is called "birth control" only truly treats one thing effectively and it does so with great risk. Any other medically necessarily condition can be treated just as effectively with another drug. If the argument is that doctors will prescribe it anyway for something other than birth control, then it should be exclusion in the insurance plan and the employee will have to cover this out of pocket.

My point of contention is still that is an issue that should be between the doctor and patient as far as which medications are best. It isn’t something that religious beliefs have a place in mandating. It is a choice for only those two people. As far as the claim that other medications would be better suited that is a matter of opinion which I have read articles that say the opposite from yourself. Again the doctor would know better than I. unless you are a doctor then it falls back to opinion. Every article that I have read that supports what you are saying had heavy Christian influence so I tend to see the bias.

As I said this will have its day in court so I expect the legality of the issue will be explored fully when it does.

edit on 16-3-2013 by Grimpachi because: Forgot quotation marks opps



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by Grimpachi
 


Where I work the insurance has went up every year since I have been there (10 year) except one. In that time we have had two wage freezes. Each year the insurance has gotten a bit worse in some places and stayed the same in others. I am active and have good health though. The insurance is the same throughout the company unless the big wigs have their own outside of work or in addition to it of course.

There is a place that has nearly the same job description near here. They pay more but their insurance is worse than ours. Even with good insurance you are at a great risk of being screwed and going bankrupt if something goes drastically wrong. So no matter what mandates on insurance the government puts out they will not change that, their system is not a help. Those who could not afford insurance before still cannot and if they do not get it they are fined.

There are a lot of problems we could list for pages in the U.S. worrying about BC should not be one of them. There is really no reason that anyone in the U.S. cannot get BC in one form or another.

Raist



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by Helious
 


Great post.

It would be great if all employers offered medical insurance. It would be great if it covered everything that needs or is desired to be covered. That is some sort of fantasy world though.

The government could have solved all of this by instead of mandating getting insurance from private firms just conducting their own federal plan. That will not happen though because it would be a tax increase, and in a way take from their pockets. This way that make a lot more money and can still screw people over with taxes "for other stuff" that way the only "bad people" will be the employers.

Raist


It would be great if all employers offered medical insurance, it would also be great if every insurance plan offered covered every possible thing under the sun but as you and I both know, that just wouldn't be American.

If every employer was forced to offer the same wage, the same benefits and the same inclusions in policy there would be no point in choosing to work for, or for that matter consume from different businesses. We may as well have one government run lawyer, butcher, stone mason, supermarket, pizza place and so on and so forth.

Different wages, different benefits packages and the exact benefits that those packages include help make up the diversity of the American work force that enforces productivity, ingenuity and the desire to things better than the status quo. The argument being put forth by many in this thread is one of socialism and from the fruit of the tree of everything that doesn't make sense to them should some how be disallowed.

The burden to find benefits that fit your self appointed need of birth control fall on you as a potential employee seeking employment. The notion that every employer that offers benefits should somehow be state mandated to pay for your birth control is nothing short of absurd. I almost find it hard to believe that Americans can make that argument while keeping a straight face.

It's downright scary.

Anyway, I agree with a large amount of what you have said through out the thread.
edit on 16-3-2013 by Helious because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:23 PM
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There is an easy fix for the birth control issue -- if you do not want to pay for your own birth control, don't have sex. Pregnancy is a choice, not an illness. Having sex is a personal issue, not one you want your employer involved with, or do you?



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by Helious
 


I think a cookie cutter society is what a great many want. It started back when they started telling every kid that they won even if they lost. The point of playing the game is about fun but it is also to win. If you do not win you learn from it and move on and win later.

Now it is all about entitlement and people thinking everything should be the same. Nope not going to happen life has hard times, harder at times for others. A hard time for some is wondering what shirt to wear as they sit on the beach and earn their million dollars for the day. A hard time for someone else is wondering if they will eat today. I hope to at least fall someplace in the middle of that in the struggle of life.


Raist



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by searching411
There is an easy fix for the birth control issue -- if you do not want to pay for your own birth control, don't have sex. Pregnancy is a choice, not an illness. Having sex is a personal issue, not one you want your employer involved with, or do you?


You know, out of the 20 long winded posts I have made in this thread, I think it may have been just as effective and a lot less time consuming to post what you just did.

I couldn't and in fact didn't say it better myself. Good form sir.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by searching411
There is an easy fix for the birth control issue -- if you do not want to pay for your own birth control, don't have sex. Pregnancy is a choice, not an illness. Having sex is a personal issue, not one you want your employer involved with, or do you?


I agree with Helious, best post so far.


Sex is a personal issue and I wouldn't want my employer involved in my personal life.

(I would think though that an employer would prefer all their female employees to be on some sort of birth control because a pregnant woman that intends to give birth and keep the baby is going to present more problems logistically and financially to the business. If she has problems during the pregnancy and has to go on bedrest, you have to get a temp. replacement in. If she works up to the delivery date she will still need a replacement to cover her maternity leave, etc.)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by searching411
There is an easy fix for the birth control issue -- if you do not want to pay for your own birth control, don't have sex. Pregnancy is a choice, not an illness. Having sex is a personal issue, not one you want your employer involved with, or do you?


Yes sex is a personal issue. So why is Domino's sticking their noses into peoples bedroom.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by daryllyn
 


I don't understand where you get the idea that you can't get condoms anywhere else but from your employer, you can still get them at all the same places.
If you can't afford a condom, sex probably shouldn't be your top priority, given they're pretty cheap.
Besides, religion aside, it's not the employers responsibility to start providing things for their employees. Whats next, diapers? toothpaste?
Where is the line in the sand?
.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by kx12x
 



I don't understand where you get the idea that you can't get condoms anywhere else but from your employer, you can still get them at all the same places. If you can't afford a condom, sex probably shouldn't be your top priority, given they're pretty cheap.


Where did I say anything about condoms?


While its true that they do hand them out at places like planned parenthood, you don't go to your OBGYN to ask for condoms. You just go buy them at the store.

I was talking about birth control pills, and other forms of hormonal birth control.
edit on 16-3-2013 by daryllyn because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by searching411
There is an easy fix for the birth control issue -- if you do not want to pay for your own birth control, don't have sex. Pregnancy is a choice, not an illness. Having sex is a personal issue, not one you want your employer involved with, or do you?


Yes sex is a personal issue. So why is Domino's sticking their noses into peoples bedroom.


You do realize your entire position has absolutely and completely no merit right? I'd like to think your smart enough to realize the shocking idiocy in what you just posted but I must admit, nothing surprises me anymore.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by daryllyn
reply to post by kx12x
 



I don't understand where you get the idea that you can't get condoms anywhere else but from your employer, you can still get them at all the same places. If you can't afford a condom, sex probably shouldn't be your top priority, given they're pretty cheap.


Where did I say anything about condoms?


While its true that they do hand them out at places like planned parenthood, you don't go to your OBGYN to ask for condoms. You just go buy them at the store.

I was talking about birth control pills, and other forms of hormonal birth control.
edit on 16-3-2013 by daryllyn because: (no reason given)


They should be considered and purchased the same way. privately and independently or through an insurance plan that has stated it provides such. They are not medically necessary.

If you don't expect your employer to provide benefits that include purchasing condoms then it's unrealistic to expect that same plan to purchase birth control measures.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by Helious
 


Since when are condoms prescribed by doctors?

I have been referring to prescription forms of birth control the whole time. Typically, you don't go to the doctor and ask for condoms in the same way you would go to ask for medication.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by daryllyn
reply to post by Helious
 


Since when are condoms prescribed by doctors?

I have been referring to prescription forms of birth control the whole time. Typically, you don't go to the doctor and ask for condoms in the same way you would go to ask for medication.


Good question!

The only reason birth control is prescribed instead of being bought over the counter like condoms is because of the danger of taking it. A risk that you don't have with condoms. That doesn't change the fact that they share the same purpose and just because one is taken orally and has the potential to be harmful doesn't mean an employer has the burden of including it in benefits offered.

This is just a argument based on pure logic, I'm not even bringing up at this point his Constitutional right of refusal which he has ground for. Lets just all be honest for a minute though. Nobody is saying you can't take birth control, nobody is saying you shouldn't, nobody is casting aspersions for your personal choices. All anyone is doing is pointing out that demanding an employer PAY for your contraception is a little silly and a little based on an entitlement attitude.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:26 PM
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Just to play devil's advocate here and look at this from another angle, some people here are commenting about the employer's constitutional rights, but does that employer have the constitutionally guaranteed right to run his own business? And like the people saying "if the employee doesn't like this policy they can work for someone else", couldn't you make the argument that "if the employer doesn't like this regulation he can sell/close his business and find another way to make a living?"

One might be able to argue that by starting a business they are making the commitment to meet a variety of rules and regulations regarding how employees are treated and compensated even if he/she personally feels those rules are unjust or immoral. If religious exemptions can be granted for this form of compensation, could another employer then try to claim he/she is morally and religiously opposed to the minimum wage, or gender equality in the work place?

I stand by my earlier statement that a private business owner should be able to run a business as he/she wishes even if it's a stupid idea that's bad for business, but do acknowledge that society decided long ago that employers had to meet certain standards for their employees, and after some thought this religious exemption rule seems like an opening to circumvent nearly all work place regulations. While I want private business to have the freedom to operate as the owner desires, I also don't want all employee's rights taken away either. Is that a legitimate concern?



posted on Mar, 17 2013 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by Helious
 





I'm sure you would like to use that argument and it hold any water to make it seem as if you are championing freedom but it's a sham and we both know it. This was denied under Constitutional challenge because the drug is taken voluntarily to effect the outcome of pregnancy due to sexual intercourse. This is obviously something that is unique in that it is not medicinally necessary and if it was, the outcome of this case and this conversation would be much different.


Let me clarify. I am making the argument for use of the oral contraceptive for lessening the condition of women that have ovarian cysts.

Not for use as birth control. And I thought that I had explained myself in previous posts that I was focusing on the prescription of Oral Contraceptives for for medical reasons and not birth control.

Personally my thoughts are somewhat mixed on providing birth control to anyone. Man or Woman.

However it is written into the health care act.

And I'd like to point out. That Freedom of Religion is not always guaranteed. Much like Freedom of Speech is not always guaranteed. You cannot shout fire in a theater. There are limits to what we can do.

We've been going back and forth on this for some pages now. But I want to hear your thoughts on the use of oral contraceptives for lessening the effects of ovarian cysts.
If there's an actual medical reason for prescribing oral contraceptives. Should an exception be made?
edit on 17-3-2013 by grey580 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2013 @ 12:45 AM
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This thread is just further proof that this was not a republican issue, or a democrat issue, but a religious one. It was brought up many times in the campaign, and it drove me absolutely insane. This court ruling does even more so. The government has no business granting special rights to people because of religious beliefs. How many followers does a religion have to have before you can use belief in it as grounds for not paying what you're supposed to? What if I start a religion that doesn't believe in paying taxes, can I just refuse to do that?

For people who think this is an economic issue, what do you think is cheaper? Paying for birth control, or paying for the government to raise kids that were never wanted in the first place?

The thing that infuriates me the most about all of this, is I was raised a christian. I was sent to a christian school. I had to take bible classes, where I was graded on the bible just like i'd be graded on a biology text book. If this Domino's guy actually knew what jesus taught, or what the bible had to say on this, he would have no problem paying for contraceptives.

Romans 13:1-5 ESV

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1 ESV

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

1 Peter 2:13-17 ESV

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.



posted on Mar, 17 2013 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by wildcomet
 


Absolutely correct.

Business owners are bound by regulations depending on the line of business the are in.

No amount of Religious Freedom argument is going to let a business get away with doing something that would harm it's customers.

However the argument isn't exactly the same. And I didn't bring it up before since I don't think it applies to the op.




I stand by my earlier statement that a private business owner should be able to run a business as he/she wishes even if it's a stupid idea that's bad for business, but do acknowledge that society decided long ago that employers had to meet certain standards for their employees, and after some thought this religious exemption rule seems like an opening to circumvent nearly all work place regulations. While I want private business to have the freedom to operate as the owner desires, I also don't want all employee's rights taken away either. Is that a legitimate concern?


And I agree a business owner can run his business as he wishes within the boundaries of law.
Some of those laws deal with workers rights as well.
And yes it is very much a concern. Many corporations have in the past screwed over their employees in one way or another. And will continue to do so.
But that is why we have government regulations to deal with that sort of thing.
edit on 17-3-2013 by grey580 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2013 @ 02:31 AM
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reply to post by buster2010
 


Religion aside, ill be damned if IM going to pay for someone else's birth control , let alone a whole company, IM not gonna work my ass off, build up a giant empire so I can help be the next welfare. Period


National HEALTH CARE as in make sure you aren't sick and giving it to others,,,, GREAT IDEA.... Paying for someone's form of birth control whether it be rubbers, pills, or abortions because they are lazy, slutty, ignorant, think they are a pimp , or to damn young to be doing it anyway is absolutely absurd.

If you can't afford pills or rubber (really both ^^) then you shouldn't be having sex, end of story. I know its possible im 35 and no f ing kids and have had plenty of fun in high school, college and continue to do so with my sexy momma of three years ^^



posted on Mar, 17 2013 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by wildcomet
 


I have already said that there are a few choices. One if I was this man with his beliefs I would shut the place down and everyone would be looking for new work. I have also said that employees can go else.

It is like this if it is my business it is like my home. I run my home the way I see fit. I would run my business as I see fit as well. If I am being forced to run it a certain way that goes against my beliefs I will shut it down, that is just how I see it. I would rather stand by my beliefs than leave them to rot.


Raist




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