"That's the beauty about Free Will..."

If Free Will does indeed exist, there is very little beauty in it. Sure, on face value it seems generous that God would allow his creations to make their own decisions, but at the end of the day it is pointless. Why? Because, before a creation is made, God would be aware of ALL decisions such a creation could make. This includes the ability for creations to take part in behaviour that is detrimental to itself, its environment and other creations. God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

People often use the following rebuttal: "but if there is no Free Will then we are just robots!". What these people fail to realise is that even with Free Will, they are still robots - only more advanced robots.

reply to post by Dark Ghost

God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

IF free will didn't exist... You would look around and see exactly the opposite of what you see in this world...

Everyone is free to make their own choices...

at the end of the day it is pointless. Why? Because, before a creation is made, God would be aware of ALL decisions such a creation could make.

IF God can see all the possible outcomes of a person's life... and still lets people make bad choices... Either God has a plan, which is for each person to learn by his own free will... OR God is sadistic and cruel...

I could argue either point... depending on what kind of God one believes it

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
If Free Will does indeed exist, there is very little beauty in it. Sure, on face value it seems generous that God would allow his creations to make their own decisions, but at the end of the day it is pointless. Why? Because, before a creation is made, God would be aware of ALL decisions such a creation could make. This includes the ability for creations to take part in behaviour that is detrimental to itself, its environment and other creations. God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

People often use the following rebuttal: "but if there is no Free Will then we are just robots!". What these people fail to realise is that even with Free Will, they are still robots - only more advanced robots.

Dear Dark Ghost,

So many assumptions, do you have children? I raised three, I often knew what they were thinking; but, never exactly how it would turn out. Did that mean they had no free will? You seem to be saying that if God knows what choices you might make that you have no free will. I reject people's attempts to claim they are not responsible for their choices. You can choose to rape or not to rape, you are responsible for the choice you make, not God. The fact that you have an opportunity to do something, still makes the choice your responsibility. You define who you are by your choices, don't blame God and don't blame the Devil, take some responsibility and then do that which is right. That is not being a robot, that is being a better you.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


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reply to post by AQuestion


Of course people have free will and are responsible for their choices. None of us know what we are destined for.

But our path has already been chosen.

God is omnipotent and God made the world. Therefore he knew every decision people would ever make and how they are going to end up. He could have designed the world where everyone followed him or nobody did or some of the people did.

Either way, he came up with a design, looked at it, and said it is good. Although we don't know the outcomes he most certainly does. Every sin by every person committed on earth is part of Gods design.

reply to post by tinhattribunal
If He had he would have had you increase the size of the letters by five instead of 75.
However, quite a cute post for a thread like this. What made you do it? The devil?

OH Now I see you did. Must have been divine intervention.

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Of course people have free will and are responsible for their choices. None of us know what we are destined for.

But our path has already been chosen.

God is omnipotent and God made the world. Therefore he knew every decision people would ever make and how they are going to end up. He could have designed the world where everyone followed him or nobody did or some of the people did.

Either way, he came up with a design, looked at it, and said it is good. Although we don't know the outcomes he most certainly does. Every sin by every person committed on earth is part of Gods design.

Your statement negates free will. Specifically "But our path has already been chosen". If a path has been chosen and seen to be true by a power outside of our own...that is not "free will". that is pre-destination.

If you would have said "But our path has already been scene" then yes i could agree with your assertions of free will.

Superdeterminism whereby ever single thing and outcome is known, all along the way, isn't free will.

I think God wanted to share and participate WITH his creation and that's it's a partnership.

Of course certain realizations about our true place and stature in creation are inevitable. Seems we use our freedom mostly to avoid being free, from what I can tell, which is ridiculous and absurd. To them blame God for giving us freedom and pointing to the sorrows and suffering of the world to prove that freedom isn't beautiful or nice is beyond absurd.

I don't know the "set up" of deep reality at the quantum physical level and I don't think anyone does, but I think that the uncertainty principal is there for the sake of surprises both from our POV and from God's.

There's just something very fun, creative and playful about reality and existence, like an invitation to come on out and play and in the participation and the playful creativity there are novel forms and novel experiences made possible.

Me I'm just glad that there's something and not nothing and that the something that is is an open domain of freedom and possibility - how fun!

That freedom gets so misused and abused goes with the territory, for a time, but eventually because it's not reasonable, it will burn itself out - but to blame God before we've collectively solved the problem of our own ego, again, that's ridiculous.

In the domain of freedom we must take full responsibility. We are all at cause, because that's the way God made it.

It IS beautiful, that's it's very nature at heart.

I think wining and complaining about freedom is a waste of time - bye.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I think free will is relative. It's relative to slavery, awareness, environment, etc. And, freedom and free will are not exclusively the same thing. For example, I'm free to smoke cigarettes, but quitting takes a boat load of free will, strength, vision and hope for the future and self determinism.

We live in a chaotic cause and effect reality. Many people live moment to moment, simply reacting to the stimulus of their environment, while others have a goal and a vision and proceed to create a path toward realization. Fate, however, may have a mind of her own and foil the best laid plans.

reply to post by RobertF


Yes this is true, what should have been said was, "Our path is known" not "Our path is chosen". Not that I agree with either but one doesn't negate free will only how one perceives time. An argument I read somewhere said that we live within time, while God lives outside time. We live linearly in the present with what was, and what will be. God lives in the eternal present and sees everything at once.

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by AQuestion

 

But our path has already been chosen.

God is omnipotent and God made the world. Therefore he knew every decision people would ever make and how they are going to end up. He could have designed the world where everyone followed him or nobody did or some of the people did.

Either way, he came up with a design, looked at it, and said it is good. Although we don't know the outcomes he most certainly does. Every sin by every person committed on earth is part of Gods design.

Dear Hopechest,

I disagree with your assumptions, even though you said them in a very agreeable manner. If we have choices and make choices then our path has not been chosen for us. The fact that God knows our available choices does not mean he chooses our decisions for us. As for the outcome, what if it were not as specific as you presume, what if the outcome was eternal change?

Originally posted by g0dhims3lf
reply to post by RobertF

 

Yes this is true, what should have been said was, "Our path is known" not "Our path is chosen". Not that I agree with either but one doesn't negate free will only how one perceives time. An argument I read somewhere said that we live within time, while God lives outside time. We live linearly in the present with what was, and what will be. God lives in the eternal present and sees everything at once.

If you cant agree with both, then you negate both. Which in turn negates your claim of free will.

It doesn't matter that "god" lives out side of time as we precive it, if he knows the out come then that is pre-destination.

It is only free-will if he witness it happening but does not know the out come.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
If Free Will does indeed exist, there is very little beauty in it. Sure, on face value it seems generous that God would allow his creations to make their own decisions, but at the end of the day it is pointless. Why? Because, before a creation is made, God would be aware of ALL decisions such a creation could make. This includes the ability for creations to take part in behaviour that is detrimental to itself, its environment and other creations. God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

People often use the following rebuttal: "but if there is no Free Will then we are just robots!". What these people fail to realise is that even with Free Will, they are still robots - only more advanced robots.

Absolute and unmitigated tripe...

A99

Originally posted by RobertF

Originally posted by g0dhims3lf
reply to post by RobertF

 

Yes this is true, what should have been said was, "Our path is known" not "Our path is chosen". Not that I agree with either but one doesn't negate free will only how one perceives time. An argument I read somewhere said that we live within time, while God lives outside time. We live linearly in the present with what was, and what will be. God lives in the eternal present and sees everything at once.

If you cant agree with both, then you negate both. Which in turn negates your claim of free will.

It doesn't matter that "god" lives out side of time as we precive it, if he knows the out come then that is pre-destination.

It is only free-will if he witness it happening but does not know the out come.

edit on 15-3-2013 by RobertF because: (no reason given)

The premise on which the observation is based is erroneous...

The granting of FREE WILL (together with ALL POSSIBLE PATHS BEING KNOWN, and ALL POSSIBLE CHOICES BEING KNOWN - which is actually what is meant by omniscience) means that (with the conferrence of the FREEDOM to choose any one of these multitudinous paths) we ultimately have the choice (a choice given, despite any possible and probable outcome) to, meander our 'godselves' back to Source (US)...

FREE WILL mechanisms work whether you 'choose' to believe them or not...since the negation is a choice formed through the mechanism of FREE WILL, that reflects exactly what you choose...either way...

It is time to grow up...

A99

Originally posted by Akragon
IF free will didn't exist... You would look around and see exactly the opposite of what you see in this world...

I disagree. The potential to commit evil would not be there, so there would be no pain and suffering (UNLESS God willed his creations to be this way).

Everyone is free to make their own choices...

This is the problem: we know there is potential for creations to commit great evil to themselves and others, so why give creations the opportunity and take the risk?

IF God can see all the possible outcomes of a person's life... and still lets people make bad choices... Either God has a plan, which is for each person to learn by his own free will... OR God is sadistic and cruel...

It's possible that it's all part of a grand plan, but this does not dismiss the fact that God allows pain and suffering to occur to many of his creations.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Dear Dark Ghost,

So many assumptions, do you have children? I raised three, I often knew what they were thinking; but, never exactly how it would turn out. Did that mean they had no free will? You seem to be saying that if God knows what choices you might make that you have no free will. I reject people's attempts to claim they are not responsible for their choices. You can choose to rape or not to rape, you are responsible for the choice you make, not God. The fact that you have an opportunity to do something, still makes the choice your responsibility. You define who you are by your choices, don't blame God and don't blame the Devil, take some responsibility and then do that which is right. That is not being a robot, that is being a better you.

I do not have children, but your analogy does not fit anyway. If God exists, then he is the Creator of all life, the architect behind our creation. You did not play an active part in designing any of your children; you could not choose their physical make up, their chemical and biological make up or their cognitive functioning.

What you are forgetting is that behaviour is not just influenced by genes, it is also influenced by the environment in which the individual is raised.

I didn't blame God directly for our behaviour, I blamed him indirectly for giving us Free Will which allows us to take part in bad behaviour that negatively impacts ourselves and others.

You should consider the impact environmental factors have on one's behaviour. People are a product of their environment and it all stems from the Free Will which those that raised them were given.

Originally posted by akushla99
Absolute and unmitigated tripe...

A99

Absolute and unmitigated tripe...

(See what I did there?)

Maybe you could enlighten us with some of your wisdom, or at least explain why you considered the OP "absolute and unmitigated tripe" ?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by akushla99
Absolute and unmitigated tripe...

A99

Absolute and unmitigated tripe...

(See what I did there?)

Maybe you could enlighten us with some of your wisdom, or at least explain why you considered the OP "absolute and unmitigated tripe" ?

Ya...you chose to completely ignore the enlightenment directly beneath my statement...see what I did there?...or perhaps you just didn't see it (which brings into question your observational skills, and therefore your ability to think through something as simple as the subject of FREE WILL, based on what you choose to see)...

A99

reply to post by Dark Ghost

very well said. we can not escape the domination of God. this is why we should worship him not worshiping media or elites or corrupt clerics.