The 600 year old coin that proves China was trading with East Africa BEFORE Europeans arrived

reply to post by Astyanax


Yes,
Dhows are more than adequate for trading across the Indian ocean.
There is really good film about sailing the Indian ocean from Yemen and Somalia to india, its a seasonal voayage, for the most part, you fail one way during one season then back when the seasonal winds change.
It is through this contact that areas of India were islamicized.

reply to post by Jeremiah65


There is no question the Chinese traded with east Africa, the grand fleets of the 15th century made 3 or four trips there, stopping in ports along the way to trade. There is circumstantial evidence they might have rounded the cape and made it into the Atlantic for a brief period, a journal of a Portugese navigator mentions sight a fleet of great ships, off the coast of west Africa, in the 1420's -30's .

Several ships were shipwrecked off the east coast of Africa and many Chinese and Indonesian sailors stayed behind starting families, that still live there today.
Also there has been an Indonesian presence in south Africa since the 1200's .

reply to post by punkinworks10

Dhows are more than adequate for trading across the Indian ocean.

It depends on what you call a dhow. The term refers to a whole class of lateen-sailed vessels. Big ones, like Iranian booms and even Maldivian dhonis, can travel far. The ones in Spider's picture, not so much, though they'll do for coastal navigation.

Yes, of course there was trade across the Indian Ocean (including trade with Africa) in the fifteenth century. For that matter, there was Indian Ocean trade in the second millennium BC.

That trade was carried out by all manner of peoples. During the fifteenth century, the seafaring participants were dominantly Arabs (including North Africans), but also Persians, Tamils, Malayalis, Malays (including Indonesians and Filipinos), other Indonesians such as Bataks and Minangkabau, and Chinese. Some fared far, others were regionally active.

How do we know these particular peoples were involved? We know because there are

• records that mention them, or are written by them or in their languages (somebody earlier mentioned Ibn Battuta; his work is one example)
  
  
• surviving communities of these peoples in and around the port cities of the Indian Ocean
  
  
• cultural artefacts preserved by their descendants in various such cities
  
  
• archaeological discoveries relating to these peoples in and around those same cities and elsewhere along the coasts of East Africa, Madagascar, Arabia, South Asia and Southeast Asia
  
  
• traces (such as loan words from their languages or marker genes from their genotypes) found in the present-day populations of the Indian Ocean littoral.

We know there was trade between Africa and China. But it was not direct, and the seafarers involved – apart from the exceptions I mentioned earlier – were not East Africans. If there had been substantial participation by East African seafarers, we would know of it from the presence of the signs listed above. But there are no such signs, or very few.

Places like the Sudanese port mentioned by Spider, or Galle in southern Ceylon, were big cities but they were not native cities. They were founded, and largely populated, by seafaring traders – just like the 'factories' that Europeans would build along the coastlines of Asia in the next century.

I live, by the way, in an Indian Ocean port city that was founded by the Portuguese upon an older Arab trading-post. There are many Muslims in my country of Indian and North African descent and yes, there are some Africans. There is even a small village whose inhabitants trace their ancestry back to Africa. But they are the descendants of slaves brought to my country as cannon-fodder for the Portuguese.

If Africans were sailing the Indian Ocean as Spider is so keen to assert, where is the evidence? All the evidence points to others visiting Africa and trading with the local people there. There is none to show that Africans went a-roving and trading across the seas. If they went, they went as passengers of one kind or another.

reply to post by Astyanax


Off course the Swahili city states has a cosmopolitan population but the major part of the populous were Africans,they were mainly Muslims matter of fact they picked up ideas from their trading partners,the Arabs,Indians and Persians again they were not client states,well not until the 17th 18th and 19th centuries anyways,they built their own fleets(they are still building them today) and carried on trade along with other groups,a family whose origins began in Uganda a powerful trading family started by Jamal din Al Entebi that is Jamal from Entebbe in what is now Uganda controlled the ports of Calcutta India for centuries,btw the family is still in existence in India,he ran trade back and forth from Africa to his Indian ports.

You speak of slave trade of the Zanj,well off course that took place they were non Muslims captured or traded from the in-land kingdoms ,most of the males went into military service not unlike the Mameluke and Janissary white slave soldiers of the Persians,Ottomans,Arabs and I might want to add the kingdom of Kanem Bornu in west Africa.
But just like the White slave soldiers they often usurped power this happened on numerous occasions this happened under the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt,the African did similar in India and Bangladesh and Arabia setting up the Najahid Dynasty for about 150yrs.
One more thing the Axumites ruled Arabia on three occasions they also had direct trade to India and perhaps political influence in some location over there.

In 1490, an African guard, Sidi Badr, seized power in Bengal and ruled for three years before being murdered. Five thousand of the 30,000 men in his army were Ethiopians. After Sidi Badr’s assassination, high-level Africans were driven out and migrated to Gujarat and the Deccan. In the Deccan sultanate of Bijapur, Africans formerly enslaved—they were called the “Abyssinian party”—took control. The African regent Dilawar Khan exercised power from 1580 and was succeeded by Ikhlas Khan. The Abyssinian party dominated the Bijapur Sultanate and conquered new territories until the Mughal invasion in 1686.

The mosque was built by the Ethiopian Sidi Said, a royal slave, also known as Shaikh (honorific title) Said al-Habashi (the Ethiopian). Sidi Said retired a wealthy man to Ahmedabad, in the state of Gujarat. Extremely learned and devout, he built the mosque in 1570-1571, and close by he opened a soup kitchen for the poor. He is buried near the mosque, and his grave continues to be a site of worship for Muslims.

This is how the influence is made this African picked up ideas from his new home he built this Mosque, ultimately of Persian origins infused with local Indian character,the same would hold true for Zanj coastal cities,and Arab cities as well,influence doesn't imply no local ingenuity.
.

The Siddis were a tightly knit group, highly aggressive, and even ferocious in battle. They were employed largely as security forces for Muslim fleets in the Indian Ocean, a position they maintained for centuries. The Siddi commanders were titled Admirals of the Mughal Empire, and received an annual salary of 300,000 rupees. According to Ibn Battuta (1304-1377), the noted Muslim writer who journeyed through both Africa and Asia, the Siddis “are the guarantors of safety on the Indian Ocean; let there be but one of them on a ship and it will avoided by the Indian pirates and idolaters.”

Re-posted ^ from page 2 to drive home the point,coastal East Africans were not full of landlubbers,they were adventurous and commercially minded as any of their trading partners,even though some in-land Africans started their careers as slaves some ended their days as absolute masters.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Well what I was getting at....

I have no problem believing in the trade occurring. The evidence is there. I have a loony theory that trade was happening far earlier than what we have yet proven. I don't mean necessarily in the Indo-African regions but with North and South America.

They have found textiles in South America that carbon date to 12,000 + years old. Now some folks want to stand staunch on the fact that this is about the time people were migrating across the northern areas...the Bering Straits. Now unless our immigrants made a bee-line from Alaska regions straight to Bolivia and Peru...there is something funny with the timelines here.

I personally think that some of the scientific theories that the Samoans made it to south America years ahead of anyone else has a ton of merit...just based on some of the discoveries...discoveries that do not get a lot of face time for the public.

reply to post by Jeremiah65

I have no problem believing in the trade occurring. The evidence is there. I have a loony theory that trade was happening far earlier than what we have yet proven. I don't mean necessarily in the Indo-African regions but with North and South America.

Could you explain what you mean by Indo-African regions,I am not being fictitious I really don't understand.

reply to post by Spider879

I'm not saying East Africans were savages, Spider. I'm just saying they didn't go on trading voyages to China, or – as far as the evidence shows – anywhere beyond the East African coastline itself, and nearby places like Aden or Madagascar. They would have left traces of themselves in other places if they had.

The traders came to them.

Please note that the coin on which this thread is based is of Chinese manufacture, and found in East Africa. Your thesis would have a firmer foundation if you could show an East African coin found in China.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Spider879

 

I'm not saying East Africans were savages, Spider. I'm just saying they didn't go on trading voyages to China, or – as far as the evidence shows – anywhere beyond the East African coastline itself, and nearby places like Aden or Madagascar. They would have left traces of themselves in other places if they had.

The traders came to them.

Please note that the coin on which this thread is based is of Chinese manufacture, and found in East Africa. Your thesis would have a firmer foundation if you could show an East African coin found in China.

edit on 17/3/13 by Astyanax because: the traders came to me.

I know you made no such assertions,and I am not saying they were the dominate force in that trade the Arabs would have carried way more volume than they the ship below I forgot to place it in context.

A miniature from a Persian Manuscript(Al-Maqamat) showing a Swahili(Zanji) Trading ship.-1237 C.E by Al Wasiti from "Maqamat" by Al Hariri, 13th century Caption: UNSPECIFIED - MAY 04: A boat in the Persian Gulf with on board Abou Zayd,

And like I stated earlier they did leave their presence in South Asia to this day there are communities of East African extraction living there. the military and rich merchant types as long been intermarried with the Muslim Indians as in the case with the Entebbi family,although many came in the form as slaves who have not fared as well but not all for a good many of them were merchants and adventurers but like the Chinese they were not bent on colonizing,but much of what they returned with were luxury goods.

About coins while not Swahili and much earlier there are Axumite coins found a plenty in India this is to be seen in light of a boast by the largely propagandist half fiction IMO the Kebra Nagast or Book of Kings.
www.sacred-texts.com...
For folks who are into reptilians^ this link has a hidden treat.

Kebra Nagast
And [the Queen] returned and encamped in the city of ZION, and they remained therein three months, then their wagons moved on and came to the city of the p. 166 Government. And in one day they came to the city of SÂBÂ, and they laid waste NÔBÂ; and from there they camped round about SÂBÂ, and they laid it waste as far as the border of EGYPT. And the majesty (or, awe) of the King of ETHIOPIA was so great that the King of MĔDYÂM and the King of EGYPT caused gifts to be brought unto him, and they came into the city of the Government, and from there they encamped in ’AB‛ÂT, and they waged war on the country of INDIA, and the King of INDIA brought a gift and a present (or, tribute), and himself did homage to the King of ETHIOPIA. He (i.e., DAVID) waged war wheresoever he pleased; no man conquered him, on the contrary, whosoever attacked him was conquered.

Axum

Axum traded with India and Rome (later Byzantium), exporting ivory, tortoise shell, gold, and emeralds, and importing silk and spices. Axum's access to both the Red Sea and the Upper Nile enabled its strong navy to profit in trade between various African (Nubia), Arabian (Yemen), and Indian states. In the third century C.E., Axum acquired tributary states on the Arabian Peninsula across the Red Sea, and by 350, they conquered the Kingdom of Kush.
. Wild animals were also hunted for things such as ivory and rhinoceros horns. They traded with Roman traders as well as with Egyptian and Persian merchants.
The empire was also rich with gold and iron deposits. These metals were valuable to trade, but another mineral was also widely traded. Salt was found richly in Aksum and was traded quite frequently.
www.newworldencyclopedia.org...

Ousanas (c.320) was a king of Axum. S. C. Munro-Hay believes that it is "very likely" that Ousanas is the king to whom Aedesius and Frumentius were brought. This king is called in Ethiopian tradition "Ella Allada" or Ella Amida."Ella Amida" would then be his throne name, although "Ousanas" is the name that appears on his coins. If this identification is correct, then it was during his reign that Christianity was introduced to Axum and the surrounding communities. W.R.O. Hahn, in a study published in 1983, identifies Sembrouthes, who is known only from an inscription found in Daqqi Mahari in modern Eritrea, with Ousanas. If correct, this would give Ousanas a reign of at least 27 years.[2] Coins with the name of this ruler were found in the late 1990s at archaeological sites in India.

Imitation in Aksumite Coinage and Indian Imitations of Aksumite Coins
Rebecca Day

@bham.ac.uk Introduction The sudden appearance and disappearance of Aksumite coins in the Indian Ocean region in the late third century remains an enigmatic clue to a dynamic phase of international trade and diplomacy. This study will explore how the Aksumite kingdom of Ethiopia used imitation of Byzantine coins as part of its strategy to usurp the role of the eastern Roman Empire in long-distance trade with the East. These coins demonstrate a flourishing and self-confident polity, but also illustrate the importance of cultural tradition in the pursuit of maritime trade.1 Discussing these themes further, the use and production of Indian imitations of Aksumite coins as part of a cultural tradition of imitation, which incorporated Byzantine, Roman and Kushan material will be explored.2 Such an examination of genuine and original coins in the context of the mysterious phenomenon of Aksumite trade clearly highlights the fluidity of notions of continuity, distinction and differentiation, which gave the maritime trading network of the Indian Ocean its unique and ambiguous historical character.
www.rosetta.bham.ac.uk...

Please take time to read the pdf it's printable.

Originally posted by Spider879
Thank you I am trying to live up to my signature..I bring a different POV
I also want people to drop their stereotype visions of each other and Africans are the most stereotyped misunderstood under studied folks in the world

oh really, how does one quantify this, how does one know what Africans care any less guilty of stereotyping than Europeans, Asians etc

reply to post by Spider879

The boat in the picture you posted is what I referred to earlier as a boom. Here's another.


Modern versions still ply the East Africa and Red Sea trade. I used to take a ferry from the Dubai souk over to the Dehra side of the Creek where you'd see dozens of them tied up. The cargoes were quite various – secondhand household appliances, bales of plastic sheeting, bicycles and things in sacks, and also, I was told, a fair amount of hashish and qat. The sailors were Middle Easterners – lots of Iranians.

Axum isn't relevant to our discussion because it appeared and disappeard long before the period we are discussing and we know too little to say very much about it with certainty. The Axumites did not, as far as I know, trade with China, except, perhaps, through third parties.

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd

Originally posted by Spider879
Thank you I am trying to live up to my signature..I bring a different POV
I also want people to drop their stereotype visions of each other and Africans are the most stereotyped misunderstood under studied folks in the world

oh really, how does one quantify this, how does one know what Africans care any less guilty of stereotyping than Europeans, Asians etc

And what bubble do you live in,I am willing to bet that when the average non African thinks of Africa and Africans, flashes of chaos,backwardness, starving pot bellied kids with flies in the eyes steamy jungles and mud huts as the high water marks of achievements,even some descendants of Africans bought into that.forget about the historical stuff they will say for there was non to begin with even broaching threads like this is guaranteed incredulous responses ,yes everyone has stereotypes of the other but non so deeply rooted as those about Africans.

Originally posted by Spider879
And what bubble do you live in,I am willing to bet that when the average non African thinks of Africa and Africans, flashes of chaos,backwardness, starving pot bellied kids with flies in the eyes steamy jungles and mud huts as the high water marks of achievements,even some descendants of Africans bought into that.forget about the historical stuff they will say for there was non to begin with even broaching threads like this is guaranteed incredulous responses ,yes everyone has stereotypes of the other but non so deeply rooted as those about Africans.

again, you cannot mind read all africans and non africans and make a judgement on the varying levels of stereotyping- in my country, for example, most kids have no clue of their own country's history and culture, never mind the various aspects of Africa

These sorts of comments would indicate you have some personal issues which you are projecting onto others- this then translates into some of your posting

reply to post by Astyanax

Modern versions still ply the East Africa and Red Sea trade. I used to take a ferry from the Dubai souk over to the Dehra side of the Creek where you'd see dozens of them tied up. The cargoes were quite various – secondhand household appliances, bales of plastic sheeting, bicycles and things in sacks, and also, I was told, a fair amount of hashish and qat. The sailors were Middle Easterners – lots of Iranians. Axum isn't relevant to our discussion because it appeared and disappeard long before the period we are discussing and we know too little to say very much about it with certainty. The Axumites did not, as far as I know, trade with China, except, perhaps, through third parties.

That may be so but the Swahili version that you dismissed earlier still made trips out into the I.O but here is a pdf study
Swahili Ships in Oceanic Perspective
By Roosje de Leeuwe University of Leiden, Netherlands

The large, sea-going vessels of the Swahili Coast used to be so-called ‘stitched’ or ‘sewn’ ships, like in many regions of the Indian Ocean. Their hull was made out of planks that were sewn together with coconut coir. One type of ship was called a mtepe (in Swahili meaning ‘sailboat’). It is now extinct and little evidence of its existence remains. The oldest proof of the use of this ship comes from a graffito on the wall of a ruined house in the hinterland of Malindi and was provisionally dated to the 15th or 16th century. It had a square sail, whereas the present-day ships, the dhows, all have lateen (triangular) sails.

www.swahiliweb.net...
Take a look in side it describes the various types of vessels but especially those built by the Zanj
And I mentioned Axum for couple of reasons that they once had a far flung navy and commercial ships but they have all but disappeared and turned into landlubbers,and they are connected to this issue of East African seafaring because the Arabs and others took over their route, and as far as them having contacts with China I have nothing on that then again I limit their activities to India.

reply to post by Credenceskynyrd

again, you cannot mind read all africans and non africans and make a judgement on the varying levels of stereotyping- in my country, for example, most kids have no clue of their own country's history and culture, never mind the various aspects of Africa These sorts of comments would indicate you have some personal issues which you are projecting onto others- this then translates into some of your posting

Now you are playing net psychologist read my post again I made no mention that Africans do not stereotype and stereotype can be negative or positive, but I said they are the most stereotyped mainly in my view from lack of knowledge and a little square box called Tee Vee.

reply to post by Spider879

Try to understand your own sources, Spider. Biased as they are ('Swahiliweb' indeed!), even they are forced to admit that these boats you're talking up are simply copies of designs made elsewhere. The 'Swahili' boats are not much older than the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries and their designs are not indigenous.

So far, you have not posted even one fact in this thread that bears out your assertion.

Let's stop beating about the bush, shall we? Obviously, in your mind you see pre-1500 Africa as a place of cities, international trade and so on – a Renaissance Europe in the bush, perhaps. Well, that idea is pure fantasy. A few stones piled one on top of the other here, a coin or cowrie shell there, a few ambiguous references in known historical sources that could be interpreted in just about any way you like – there's the 'evidence' for your Afrocentric fantasy.

When modern eyes first beheld the interior of Eastern Africa, what did they see? Endless expanses of uninhabited wilderness, a few desperately primitive tribes, diseased and living on the edge of starvation, and Arab slaver gangs marching up and down in search of the few remaining survivors of their centuries-long depredations. That was the reality of Africa in about 1830. Where were all those wonderful civilised societies you keep going on about? Where were the cities? Where were the monuments? The palaces of the rich, decked out with rare and precious things from China and India and the rest of the vast international network of 'Swahili' trading partners? Where were the sophisticated international traders, the crafty seafarers and naval architects who made the network possible?

When and where did they all vanish?

The Europeans went all over the world, you know. They got to Africa last. Everywhere else they went in the Old World they found thriving, living civilisations and elaborate cultures of long standing. They trashed a lot of them, of course; the story is well known. But in Africa south of the Sahara there wasn't even anything for them to trash.

The few archaeological remains that were found in sub-Saharan Africa over the next two centuries have indicated the presence of some pre-existent African cultures, of which next to nothing is actually known. These cultures contributed nothing to world history. They were mushrooms, springing up in the dark and gone before morning. The folklore of the people degraded from them has contributed far more – albeit through the agency of a great historical evil – than the cultures themselves.

reply to post by Astyanax

Come come de-Nile is not just a river in Africa, Astyanax first the link said nothing of limiting those boat building to the 1500 that's your spin after denying that they did no such thing the pdf is from a Swahili web but the study was carried out by

Swahili Ships in Oceanic Perspective
By Roosje de Leeuwe University of Leiden, Netherlands

I repeatedly said they picked up boat building techniques from their trading partners,for lack of a better word it's called technology transfer it happens only all the time.

Sewn Planks
and other unique features

Let's stop beating about the bush, shall we? Obviously, in your mind you see pre-1500 Africa as a place of cities, international trade and so on – a Renaissance Europe in the bush, perhaps. Well, that idea is pure fantasy. A few stones piled one on top of the other here, a coin or cowrie shell there, a few ambiguous references in known historical sources that could be interpreted in just about any way you like – there's the 'evidence' for your Afrocentric fantasy.

And where on god's green earth does Europe have to do with anything,excuse you but I judge Europe on it's own merits not as a yard stick to measure Africa and Africans by that seems to be your thinking and your problem unfortunately, and yes much of pre-1500 Africa was a place of international trade and cities,matter of fact Swahili manuscripts were discovered in far way Timbuktu on the other end of the continent,Mansa Musa cause the value of gold to decline in value for 12 yrs on his visit to Mecca and Cairo because of his spending binge his trip literally put Mansa Musa on the map for two 200 yrs

Mansa Musa holding the gold nugget being visited by
Abu Bakr brother of Yusuf bin Tashfin the
Tuareg ruler of Moorish Iberia

The info of what happened is numerous. but lets save that for another time shall we.
That said I enjoy conversing with you man.

reply to post by Spider879

The link said nothing of limiting those boat building to the 1500s. That's your spin

From your linked paper:

The oldest proof of the use of this ship comes from a graffito on the wall of a ruined house in the hinterland of Malindi and was provisionally dated to the 15th or 16th century.

No older evidence of these boats in East Africa has been found. Even this fifteenth-century 'evidence' is only a picture, of uncertain date at that. How does anyone know the boat in it was built by Africans?

The older boats referred to in your paper are of Middle Eastern, mainly Arab origin:

(Arab) ships have been described from as early as two millennia ago in the Periplus of the Erithrean Sea, as they were famous for their trading all over the Red Sea and the western Indian Ocean.

Yet again, we see on what flimsy – insubstantial is a better word – stuff your claims are based.

it's called technology transfer it happens only all the time

It's called imitation and there is nothing wrong with it, so long as people don't then claim that the imitation is the original.

And where on god's green earth does Europe have to do with anything,excuse you but I judge Europe on it's own merits not as a yard stick to measure Africa and Africans by that seems to be your thinking and your problem unfortunately

What Europe has to do with anything is simply this: all your 'evidence' is, at first remove, from European sources. Aside from Arab slavers and traders, what happened in Africa was unknown to people in the world outside until Europeans (and Americans) penetrated the continent and reported back on what they found.

Even the paper we are discussing was written by a Dutch academic at a university in the Netherlands.

That said I enjoy conversing with you man.

Well, it's a pleasure you will now have to forgo, because I'm sick and tired of this. All I'm interested in is sticking to historical truth and avoiding tendentious fabrication. But to refute your claims, I have to keep knocking fifteenth-century East African culture off the pedestal on which, for reasons whose political character is now rather blatant, you are trying to put it.

I think I've done enough to show that your claims are unhistorical, so I can safely take my leave of this thread now.

reply to post by Astyanax

No older evidence of these boats has been found or in East Africa. Even this fifteenth-century 'evidence' is only a picture, and one of uncertain date at that! The older boats referred to in your paper are of Middle Eastern, mainly Arab origin:

Yet you said they did not exist whether 15th century or not,the earliest pictorial record of an Arab sailing vessel is from the 12cent did that mean they were not sailing the before then? again we have records of Axumite far flung shipping both naval and commercial yet not one ship even a piece of wood in a museum remained yet they were supposed to capture areas in Arabia on three occasions.

It's called imitation and there is nothing wrong with it, so long as people don't then claim that the imitation is the original

No not quite it has features not found in other ships and I have never claimed once that their vessels and architecture came completely from native origins.

What Europe has to do with anything is simply this: all your 'evidence' is, at first remove, from European sources. Aside from Arab slavers and traders, what happened in Africa was unknown to people in the world outside until Europeans (and Americans) penetrated the continent and reported back on what they found. Even the paper we are discussing was written by a Dutch academic at a university in the Netherlands.

No your original statement was that I fantasied about

a Renaissance Europe in the bush

I made no such comparison but that they developed and did engaged the outside world

Well, it's a pleasure you will now have to forgo, because I'm sick and tired of this. All I'm interested in is sticking to historical truth and avoiding tendentious fabrication. But to refute your claims, I have to keep knocking fifteenth-century East African culture off the pedestal on which, for reasons whose political character is now rather blatant, you are trying to put them. I think I've done enough to show that your claims are unhistorical, so I can safely take my leave of this thread now.

And I think I have shown you to be mistaken in your assessment of my position at every turn
.China did business with East Africans,you said they did not, you were wrong.
.Swahili did build their own ocean going fleets.you were wrong.
.You said Africans leave no evidence of their presence overseas I gave you living communities and even families and the almost exact locations of where they originated..you were wrong.
and it's rather tragic that you have to knock another culture just because your paradigm has been challenged.
Thank you for your time really.

reply to post by Spider879

China did business with East Africans, you said they did not, you were wrong.

I said there was no direct trade. You have not shown any evidence that there was.

Swahili did build their own ocean going fleets.you were wrong.

So you say, but you haven't yet posted a shred of evidence to back up the claim. All you posted was a paper that stated the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

You said Africans leave no evidence of their presence overseas I gave you living communities and even families and the almost exact locations of where they originated..you were wrong.

That is a barefaced lie, and it loses you all the credit you've earned with me up to now. You did not mention, let alone provide evidence for, one single living community of East Africans in Asia – or anywhere else for that matter. I challenge you to show me the post in which you did.

it's rather tragic that you have to knock another culture just because your paradigm has been challenged.

I merely state facts, as I have done throughout this thread. I leave 'knocking' other people's cultures to those – be they black, white or khaki – with ethnic axes to grind.

And now this really has gone far enough. Goodbye.