The 600 year old coin that proves China was trading with East Africa BEFORE Europeans arrived

Originally posted by Astyanax
This does not signify a direct international trade between China and East Africa in the fifteenth century. No such trade existed. It is actually something much more exciting.

The Indian Ocean voyages of the great Chinese eunuch-admiral Zheng He (he whom Westerners used to call Cheng Ho) are contemporary with this coin. We know Zheng visited Malindi; he took back to China a giraffe from there. The coin was quite probably lost by a member of his expedition, or traded by one of them in a one-time deal for something or other.

It may have been given, not to an African, but to an Arab. The East African coast in the fifteenth century was heavily Islamicised, having been under Arab dominance since the eighth century. However, Arab political authority had mostly crumbled by the 1400s, and by the early years of the next century the Portuguese would be along to help themselves to the Arabs' possessions, such as Zanzibar. Meanwhile, any trade between the two regions would have been carried out by Arabs. This would have been little enough; a few tusks of ivory every year, perhaps. China didn't need much from Africa, and there was nothing Africans thought they needed from China.

edit on 14/3/13 by Astyanax because: of Zanzibar.

Did you read the African Cities link? www.abovetopsecret.com... the coastal Swahili were not Arabs nor were they controlled by them not until after the Portuguese adventures anyway,they did took ideas and technique from their trading partners including religion but they were not client states,again they built their own fleets,trade Items includes Ivory,spices,slaves,bars of iron,silk Chinese white and blue porcelain,gold.
Btw the same way that Arabs borrowed architecture style from the Persians and Byzantines and added their flavor to it so did the Swahili it is in this light it should be looked at. but don't take my word for it see the work of a person who was there Ibn Battuta.
Architecture

Architecture Previously thought by many scholars to be essentially of Arabic or Persian style and origin; archaeological, written, linguistic, and cultural evidence instead suggests a predominantly African genesis and sustainment. This would be accompanied later by an enduring Arabic and Islamic influence in the form of trade, inter-marriage, and an exchange of ideas.
Ibn Battuta
Upon visiting Kilwa in 1331, the great Berber explorer Ibn Battuta was impressed by the substantial beauty that he encountered there. He describes its inhabitants as "Zanj, jet-black in colour, and with tattoo marks on their faces", and notes that "Kilwa is a very fine and substantially built town, and all its buildings are of wood" (his description of Mombasa was essentially the same).Kimaryo points out that the distinctive tattoo marks are common among the Makonde. Architecture included arches, courtyards, isolated women's quarters, the mihrab, towers, and decorative elements on the buildings themselves. Many ruins may still be observed near the southern Kenyan port of Malindi in the Gede ruins

And Trade relations go back to China as far back as the Tang Dynasty.

Tang Dynasty 618 A.D - 907 A.D. When we turn our attention to some of the more ancient Chinese writings we find a few hints suggesting Swahili sailors arrived on Chinese shores. An interesting passage can be found in the Ch'en-han-shu. This document discusses China's maritime trade links with other countries during the early Han Dynasty. It states: Going again by boat about four months, there is the country of Yi-li-mo. Going by land about ten days, there is the country of Fu-kan-tu-lu, two months beyond again, there was Huang-chih;

and from Huang-chih Emperor P'ing received an envoy who brought a rhinoceros as a present. Bear in mind rhinos are indigenous to Africa. In the past, a Swahili trading center existed on the island of Zanzibar. This is a small island located just off the coast of East Africa. "Zanj" or "Zaniji" was the term medieval Arabs used for east African peoples. The name still survives today. It can be seen in the island named "Zanzibar".

The term "Zanzibar" derived from "zanj-bahr". "Zanj-bahr" merely means "coast of the Zanj". Interestingly, the term "zanj" resurfaced in an Arab writing of 1154 AD. The passage speaks about India and China establishing trade links with one another. It stated India fell into a state of confusion and as a result the Chinese had to withdraw their trading post and establish them on the islands of a place it called "Zanedji".

reply to post by Spider879

None of the above implies direct trade between Africa and China in the fifteenth century. Neither does your map, which refers to an earlier era.

As for the following, it perfectly illustrates the selective nature of your project.

Bear in mind rhinos are indigenous to Africa.

There are rhinoceroses in India and Java too. Forgot about them, did you?

History, my friend, is not an apple barrel into which you can dip your hand and pull out whatever suits you, while ignoring the rest of its contents.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Spider879

 

None of the above implies direct trade between Africa and China in the fifteenth century. Neither does your map, which refers to an earlier era.

As for the following, it perfectly illustrates the selective nature of your project.

Bear in mind rhinos are indigenous to Africa.

There are rhinoceroses in India and Java too. Forgot about them, did you?

History, my friend, is not an apple barrel into which you can dip your hand and pull out whatever suits you, while ignoring the rest of its contents.

edit on 15/3/13 by Astyanax because: of obsession.

Astyanax are you arguing for the sake of arguing we have records both the Chinese and the Swahili it doesn't matter if they could pick-up Ivory from India and Java which they did,the fact still remained that they came as far as East Africa and East Africans went to them,along with the Indians,Persians,Axumites,Arabs, Indonesians made the trip to East Africa and Madagascar for much the same reasons,the sea lanes were kept relatively pirate free by Zanj aka Swahili

he Siddis were a tightly knit group, highly aggressive, and even ferocious in battle. They were employed largely as security forces for Muslim fleets in the Indian Ocean, a position they maintained for centuries. The Siddi commanders were titled Admirals of the Mughal Empire, and received an annual salary of 300,000 rupees. According to Ibn Battuta (1304-1377), the noted Muslim writer who journeyed through both Africa and Asia, the Siddis “are the guarantors of safety on the Indian Ocean; let there be but one of them on a ship and it will avoided by the Indian pirates and idolaters.”

Another group of mercenary sailors were the Axumites with three crosses tattooed on their cheeks,at an earlier time before losing out on the sea lanes to Muslims they were a major power who claimed they had territory in far off India.

Even as late the 1600 Africans who were once pressed by the Portuguese went to work for a Chinese warlord.

Coxinga's African Bodyguards Swordsmanship was a vital component in the young Coxinga's education, not purely as a skill that a gentleman warranted, but also as a means of self-defence. [His father Nicholas] Iquan had many enemies, among the Dutch, Chinese and Japanese, and China was still reeling from the after-effects of drought and famine. As the son and heir of China's richest man, Coxinga was a valuable prize for kidnappers, and he was assigned minders hand-picked from Iquan's own personal battalion, the Black Guard. When the boy asked his father where he had found such fearsome warriors, Iquan simply replied that they had come from 'beyond the sea'.

This is the fantastic true story of the infamous pirate; Coxinga who became king of Taiwan and was made a god - twice. From humble origins, Coxinga's father became the richest man in China and Admiral of the Emperor's navy during the Ming Dynasty. As his eldest son, Coxinga was given the best education and developed a love of poetry and the study of Confucius. From this unlikely beginning, it took the invasion of south China by the Manchu and the subsequent loss of both his parents - his father defected to the Manchu and his mother, a Japanese Samurai, died in battle - to turn Coxinga from scholar to warrior. Fiercely loyal to his exiled Emperor, Coxinga fought against overwhelming odds until his defeat drove him out to sea and over to Taiwan - at the time a lawless set of islands inhabited by cannibals. Self-styled king of Taiwan, Coxinga died at the moment of his triumph. His descendants ruled the island for two decade

www.amazon.com...=1135236969/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8285822-8847205?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
Recommend good read.

reply to post by Spider879


You should get a proper education...

Portuguese did came and disrupt that ancient trade route because they had nothing worth trading non wanted to do business with them but they had a lot of gun powder and cannon,they wracked havoc on the city states,trade in slaves would supersede all else when it was a minor but important item before that era.

All new comers cause disruption I grant you that but stating that the Portuguese had anything but economic interests on their sea expansionism is rewriting history (get a map and look at the size of Portugal), get and Encyclopedia and check the historic evolution of the Portuguese demographics, those two things will prove to you that nothing beyond simple discovery and economic expansion/trade was in the minds the Portugueses. Don't bunch Portugal with the other powers. Not even with the second coming, Spain, that was more dedicated to spreading religion and in obtaining a quick return to fight other European powers...

As for gun powder it is funny that you bring that up in this thread since the Portuguese obtained that knowledge more or less at the same time the rest of Europe, from China. (They indeed were the first to introduce it to Japan, the nation next door)

As for slaves, Portuguese were not the most active slavers, they needed all the labor themselves, in their outposts and in the new lands (they used slaves also to ease colonization due to the above mentioned demographics issues, most Portuguese colons weren't even from Portugal itself) and slavery was widely prevalent, even in Africa. Learn a bit about the rise of civilizations and you will notice that it all runs in a single track, energy (labor is a form of energy). All major civilization evolved with the practice of slavery even in Europe (check the series Spartacus or Vikings and you will get a vivid image of how things run...)

You can criticize the Portuguese Empire after it started to emulate the English, even leading to ideas of racial segregation on the colonies (something that was previously very loosely done, except with the slaves). Note also that Portuguese were always very less sensitive to skin colors. Portugal was carved out from the Arabs and most the commerce came from Africa from the onset.

Considering the Chinese had 3,000 tonne junks in those days, This thread does not surprise me, some say the Chinese traded in South America, small world really.

International trade and sea power probably had its first grate hayday durring the middle bronze Age (c.2000-1600 BC). The hunt for tin and copper being its primary driving force. Evidence of the Proto-Sinaitic script and its hybrids are scattered world wide....even in china along the yellow river where most of its bronze industry flurished.

Very old forms of a bace hieroglyphic alphabet used by the egyptians, mayans and the chines are also evidence of this very early high sea adventure. All of these cultures developed their own distinct use of paper and "letters" if you will but early on could communicate in a very common form of iconography and script for trade purposes.

Great Post. I always admire your post, you have alot to offer a place like this. I have tried, before I even made an account.

This is an amazing find. Science seems to confirm oral tradition. But as a tribalectic individual, oral tradition always proves science right and it always offers a deeper insight. Africa is rich in oral tradition. Science and mainstream academia do not even possess the instruments or tools to properly explain some of the things that can be found there.

On another note

I totally believe that we have warped our own perception into way that twist artifacts to fit our understanding instead creating an understanding from an artifact. I can turn this whole thread upsidedown. Not the whole thread but most of the people here. I say that, because the responses reflect the understanding. There is evidence people go look for it.

....and here I go.
..We find a coin and we automatically conclude that China had trade with East Africa. Of course...I know where we found it, but there is more than meets the eye. What if East Africa actually established a trade route in east china. The first thing people will exclaim is "there is no evidence to support the claim". But there is. There is an over abundance of evidence to suggest a completely different paradigm.There are older 'african' relics that suggest there was an 'african presence' in south east asia and east asia. I believe there were several different 'waves' at several different periods. This built off of the fact that the indigenous people look very very very East African....because they were.
We are building our WHOLE theory based off the assumption that the indigenous autochthons of the Americas and Africa were just sitting "waiting to be civilized". This is arrogant, and just as absurd as european powers murdering people for believing and trying to prove the world was round! Westerners have NEVER researched as much as they should to claim to know as much as they claim to know. I mean there is no way. America can fit inside Africa about 3 times and it is the most diverse continent on the planet. We do NOT have Africa figured out because we think its figured out. Same goes for antarctica. We have created this false reality where we know all could ever know.


Funny side note my fiance is African-American (Sudanese,N.A. Tribal blood). Both of her parents and all of her siblings are medium-dark brown. She on the other hand has most of the traits people associate with the people that our now found in Asia. Her eyes are very different and her complexion is very different. Yet the standard family traits are infused some how.?? Just thought that was related some how lol.

.....There is so much to learn and so much to teach.



....anywhoo. Great find.
We have to get our heads out of the sand. I imagine the day that we me 'other' beings, they will have a better understanding about our very own history than we will.
great post man. peace

reply to post by Panic2k11

As for slaves, Portuguese were not the most active slavers, they needed all the labor themselves, in their outposts and in the new lands (they used slaves also to ease colonization due to the above mentioned demographics issues, most Portuguese colons weren't even from Portugal itself) and slavery was widely prevalent, even in Africa. Learn a bit about the rise of civilizations and you will notice that it all runs in a single track, energy (labor is a form of energy). All major civilization evolved with the practice of slavery even in Europe (check the series Spartacus or Vikings and you will get a vivid image of how things run...)

You can criticize the Portuguese Empire after it started to emulate the English, even leading to ideas of racial segregation on the colonies (something that was previously very loosely done, except with the slaves). Note also that Portuguese were always very less sensitive to skin colors. Portugal was carved out from the Arabs and most the commerce came from Africa from the onset.

Not a critique but a statement of facts,actions had consequences and the Portuguese have their own sins to bare lets not put blame on anyone group .ethny or nation here,and the Portuguese were never like the English in matters of racist attitude,nor I am I making a case that Slavery was not wide spread in Africa before the arrival of anyone matter of fact Africans imported non Africans from Eurasia but that's for another thread see my response to punkinworks10 on page 1

Lisbon Renaissance Lisbon was home to the highest percentage of blacks in Europe at the time, ranging in status from slaves to knights. This reality is reflected in an unusual painting made by an unknown artist, probably from the Netherlands, of the Lisbon waterfront in the late 16th century, where blacks and whites from a variety of social strata co-exist in a public square. The Blacks pictured on horse back of military baring are Kongolese upper classes who joined the Knighthood some of the others may well have been slaves and middle class trader types, the slaves were not neccessarily Kongolese mind you, if this is from 1570-80..keeping in mind that very strong ties were made with the Kingdom of the Kongo and Portugal during that era. This was a very important central African medievil state it sent embassies to the vatican and Portugal it became Christian one of it's elite became a Bishop and it's upper class male members became military knights in Portugal,they were also corrupt as they made war for the sole purpose of selling slaves although their King banned the slave trade the elites continued to do so indefiance which caused a vicious response from the neighbouring Angolans,their cities broke-up their people returned to tribe and even clan base although it was a slow rot that took centuries and ended with 19th and 20th century crimes against humanity first under king Leopald of Belgium followed by civil wars the rise and fall Ma-Butu Seseseko One the five richest individuals in the world when he died and his nation one of the five poorest,and the mess continues today.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by Spider879

 

have you guys ever heard of ancient "Silk Road". a trading network through China, India, Iran and Egypt.
en.wikipedia.org...
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ok now I see you have heard of it. so what is the point ?

edit on 14-3-2013 by maes2 because: (no reason given)

Never take it for granted that folks know what you knew,for many this is the first time they would have heard anything like this.

The Silk Road was a whole chapter in my history book as a student in elementary school.

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by HelenConway
reply to post by Spider879

 

China and India trading with East Afrca is very very well known - archeologists have discovered this by surveying the coast lines in Kenya and other East African countries - that is why the people there are quite mixed with arabic african and indian genes.

Its also believed that the Chinese were the first people to Australia, minus the aboriginal people of course. Remember that the Chinese, at one time, were the premiere explorers of the world with the worlds largest fleet.

I believe the Ancient Romans were surveying the bass straight before any Chinese.

There is a myth a ship wreak about 10km off from a place called Table Cape that is of Ancient Roman origin.

Interesting how that never gets bought up. Nobody knows about it except a few people who have personally seen it.

would love one day to own a boat to find it.

If you read the Travels of Ibn Battu he went all over north Africa to china in the 13th century. While in Moghadishu, Somalia he described it as an immense port who traded with the far east, farther than India. That's when he learned about China. After his Haage to Mecca, he travelled to China by way of the indian ocean. So no big surprise. China was probably trading with American indians near seatle as well. Who knows maybe they even went to south america? We dont give ancient people enough credit, its not about race, its about human curiosity and the guts to go over the horizon. Rome probably travelled everywhere during the empire we just dont know about it cause records get lost and so do ship crews. They found roman and phoenecian coins all over the US and South America.

reply to post by amraks

I believe the Ancient Romans were surveying the bass straight before any Chinese. There is a myth a ship wreak about 10km off from a place called Table Cape that is of Ancient Roman origin. Interesting how that never gets bought up. Nobody knows about it except a few people who have personally seen it.

We don't have go by myth the Romans traded up and down the Azanian coast as the Swahili coast was called in their time,they also had links to the area around Mt Kilimanjaro at a town called Rhapta

The east African coast has long been a centre of international trade. Starting in around 2500 BC , the ancient Egyptians evidently entered into spasmodic trade with an east African port they knew as Punt. From about 600 BC , the Phoenicians and Romans are known to have traded with an east African port called Rhapta. The location of Punt remains a matter of pure speculation, but detailed references to Rhapta in Ptolemy’s 4th-century Geography and in an older Phoenician document Periplus of the Ancient Sea point to a location somewhere in present-day Tanzania, possibly near the mouth of the Pangani River. The collapse of the Roman Empire signalled a temporary end to maritime trade with the east African coast, and it presumably forced the closure of any contemporary trade routes into the African interior. Ptolemy claims that a Greek explorer called Diogenes saw two snow-capped mountains 25 days upriver from Rhapta and that he was told by other traders of vast lakes further inland, which indicates that 4th-century trade routes must have penetrated the interior as far as Mounts Kenya and Kilimanjaro, and possibly also Lakes Victoria and Tanganyika. www.geckogo.com › World › Africa .

books.google.co.jp...=onepage&q&f=false

reply to post by Spider879

Not a word of proof yet. Just lots and lots of anachronisitic speculation and the drawing of far-fetched connections.

There were plenty of ports along the East African coast, but no-one has yet proved that African vessels bigger than fishing-boats sailed from them. The seafarers were Arabs, North Africans, Indians, Indonesians, Persians and Chinese. If East Africans were aboard these vessels, they went as deckhands, occasionally as local pilots – and most often, sad to say, as slaves.

One day we'll find life on Mars, Spider, and you will put up a thread on ATS showing how it originated in Africa.

reply to post by AKINOFTHEFIRSSTARS

Thank you I am trying to live up to my signature..I bring a different POV
I also want people to drop their stereotype visions of each other and Africans are the most stereotyped misunderstood under studied folks in the world,the concept of "RACE"is nonsense from a biological pov but a very real social phenomenon. But it's not all oral tradition as far a African history is concerned we have records some of it from Africans themselves others from non African interactions with Africans.

reply to post by Astyanax


Traditional Swahili Dhow based off the Arab dhow like I said they had their own fleets.
"Sigh"
Google could be your friend you know!!

reply to post by Spider879

Fishing boat.Do you seriously believe anyone went a-trading across the oceans in a cockleshell like that?

A lot depends on the cargo...you dont sail a supertanker to deliver a pint of milk, if you could take 20 pounds of some common local cargo like a spice and then sail it to somewhere else and swap it for 20 pound of another spice which would be worth 1000 pounds of leather back home and it only took two of you so the profit would be worth it

Originally posted by Maxatoria
A lot depends on the cargo...you dont sail a supertanker to deliver a pint of milk, if you could take 20 pounds of some common local cargo like a spice and then sail it to somewhere else and swap it for 20 pound of another spice which would be worth 1000 pounds of leather back home and it only took two of you so the profit would be worth it

Maxatoria I can tell you from experience as an EX-Navy man who sailed the I.O every year for West Pac that those "fishing boats" as Astyanax with his Mind Firmly Closed calls them traveled deep into the Indian Ocean north of Diego Garcia which is literally in the middle of nowhere the only difference is they are now fitted with out board motors, sails optional.

err...sorry...a collector could have dropped that years later. Not meaning to be a downer, but it takes a lot more than that to prove anything....

I have often thought that trade was going on long before we think it was, but there is very little proof of that. This adds a little legitimacy to the idea, but does not "prove" anything. For me, it is a gut feeling, that information will soon be dicovered an push our dates way back...but we don't have them now.

I keep my theories to myself so that I do not sound like a

Because I am not a certified or recognized expert. I just have a hunch that the wheel of time will roll back further as we find more and more new information about our pre-historical past. Number one example...Gobekli-Tepe...that turned the cart of archaeology on it's side....I am sure there are more profound things to find deeper down....and the deeper we go, the further back in time we go.

I "hope" this is true...but I will not hold my breath.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
err...sorry...a collector could have dropped that years later. Not meaning to be a downer, but it takes a lot more than that to prove anything....

I have often thought that trade was going on long before we think it was, but there is very little proof of that. This adds a little legitimacy to the idea, but does not "prove" anything. For me, it is a gut feeling, that information will soon be dicovered an push our dates way back...but we don't have them now.

I keep my theories to myself so that I do not sound like a

Because I am not a certified or recognized expert. I just have a hunch that the wheel of time will roll back further as we find more and more new information about our pre-historical past. Number one example...Gobekli-Tepe...that turned the cart of archaeology on it's side....I am sure there are more profound things to find deeper down....and the deeper we go, the further back in time we go.

I "hope" this is true...but I will not hold my breath.

Jeremiah65 you don't even need the coin, we have Chinese white and blue porcelain as artifacts as far inland as Zimbabwe

Ming porcelain was found in many African countries. Celadon and blue and white porcelain were excavated in Al- Fustat Site in Egypt, Somali, Ethiopian ancient city sites, and an ancient site near Kenya. Blue and white porcelain of Jingdezhen were found in Tanganyika site and Dehua kiln of Jingdezhen.

gotheborg.com...

See those spaces in the wall that was where the Porcelain was stored and again Zimbabwe was an importer of the Porcelain from Swahili middle men really there is no mystery here,this is documented stuff

This is a Chinese medieval map of south east Africa's coast and hinterland 1390.
www.historyofinformation.com...