James Holmes may be ordered to take a "truth serum". Say what?????

Mods, I don't know if this is the right forum. If you find the topic inappropriate for The Gray Area, please move it to where it is appropriate.

DENVER (AP) — The defendant in the deadly Colorado theater shooting could be given "truth serum" under a court order issued Monday to help determine whether he is insane if he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity.
Suspect James Holmes could be required to submit to a "narcoanalytic interview" as part of an evaluation to determine if he was legally insane at the time of the July 20 shootings, Arpahoe County District Judge William Sylvester said.
A narcoanalylitic interview is a decades-old process in which patients are given drugs to lower their inhibition. Academic studies have shown that the technique has involved the use of sodium amytal and pentothal, sometimes called truth serum.

link

Apparently James Holmes will be entering a plea on Tuesday. From the article I gather that his defense is going to be "not guilty by reason of insanity". So a lot of you were right. I thought he would plea out to avoid the death penalty, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I think this is a good idea, see? Even the police don't know what is going on with James Holmes, and a truth serum will bring out the truth - maybe even something that wasn't known in the investigation.

He might be holding something back himself because he is afraid or protecting someone else - and whatever this is might explain a lot, and even prove him innocent.

Right - we can't water board terrorists but we can administer a drug to a man who is obviously disturbed against his will to help lower his inhibitions in hopes he will violate the 5th amendment and incriminate himself.

Excellent score one point for Amerika....

Incidentally, the use of those drugs in interrogation of terrorists is forbidden by the grand poohba...

reply to post by Golf66


I don't see that happening. I think he was either insane, or there were other people involved that he isn't talking about. Either way, I think the serum will help him. Still gave you a star though for a good point.

reply to post by Golf66


That's exactly what I was thinking...what happened to the 5th amendment? We're all a "court order" away from some of that famous psycho-therapy the doled out in Stalin's reign, apparently.

I guess polygraphs don't work anymore. I don't even think truth serum will be admissible even if he does incriminate himself.

If it gets televised, I wanna to watch.

This is just crazy. If you read all the current studies, truth serum isn't that accurate:

This is from the CIA website:

"The barbiturates, by disrupting defensive patterns, may sometimes be helpful in interrogation, but even under the best conditions they will elicit an output contaminated by deception, fantasy, garbled speech, etc. A major vulnerability they produce in the subject is a tendency to believe he has revealed more than he has. It is possible, however, for both normal individuals and psychopaths to resist drug interrogation;"

However, I have read that truth serum is used to create a manchurian candidate:

"MK ULTRA also utilized civilians, members of the armed forces and prisoners in testing their various pharmacological concoctions. Assorted human guinea pigs were drugged with a wide range of substances, including mescaline, heroin, marijuana, morphine, MDMA, alcohol, psilocybin, scopolamine, sodium pentothal and their drug of choice, lysergic acid diethylamide (also known as '___' or acid)."

www.trutv.com...
Not that best link but the first one I found

Bumped GB, thanks for the heads up. This is almost like giving a
downer freak a couple of aspirins if James was MK'd... the designer
brainscape he may have been administered could make him shrug
off anything short of a black pill. Think of the stuff the kids were
expeimentaling with in the 60's and 70's-- and multiply the basic
psychological efffects by at least five. Those are the potency of the
LEGAL psychotropics that are being doled out to grade schoolers
now like those aspirins. I also remember when antibiotics in general
were trated with kid gloves; now there are only a few families of them
that are even effective. For sodium amytal; See Lechter... two parts
sour cream to three psycho.
One can only imagine whether or not the orange hair was dyed in LOL

I would be curious to know who the doctors are that will be administering this "test"?

Perhaps, his programming didn't go 100%, so they need to put him under for a little reinforcement.

Originally posted by BobM88
reply to post by Golf66

 

That's exactly what I was thinking...what happened to the 5th amendment? We're all a "court order" away from some of that famous psycho-therapy the doled out in Stalin's reign, apparently.

Were all a court order AND being suspected of a mass killing of 12 people in a crowded theater, away from some of that famous psycho-therapy they doled out in Stalin's reign. Just dont commit a mass killing, you should be fine

reply to post by thesmokingman


Then convict him without removing his 5th amendment rights. If he's as guilty as you seem to believe, it's a slam-dunk, right?

They'll just give him some kind of placebo, or say he was administered a "truth serum" and not give him anything at all. That way he sticks to his programming and it will appear to the public that he's telling the absolute 100% truth.

The general public will remain convinced that he was just some random lunatic who went on a rampage for no reason. "Well, he was under the influence of a truth serum when he admitted to everything. The television would never lie to me."

Well american citizens have No right at all.
and torture is legal. even death for No reason at all...

Originally posted by Manhater
I guess polygraphs don't work anymore. I don't even think truth serum will be admissible even if he does incriminate himself.

If it gets televised, I wanna to watch.

edit on 11-3-2013 by Manhater because: (no reason given)

Polygraphs are not admissible in court at all. It is primarily an investigative tool that helps rule out certain distracters and get them pointed in the right direction.

I do realize that the jury deciding his case will likely never see or hear what happens while he is under the effects of the drugs because in effect they are trying to use the drug to make sure that he is indeed insane as he claims.

So only the Judge who makes the determination on that count will be the one reviewing and ruling on this "evidence".

However, all that said their use of a drug is tantamount to enhanced interrogation.

It is not admissible in a regular jury trial but in this case it is being allowed because a judge will be making the determination that he was insane at the time of the incident. I say this is bunk - It would be no different than being required to give testimony after 10 shots of tequila.

If you show up to vote drunk its illegal, to drive drunk is illegal, to show up to work is illegal in many cases, most certainly you show up to testify as a witness either for defense or prosecution drunk and you will be charged with contempt and your testimony stricken.

In this case not only will his testimony be allowed under the effects of a drug that is intended to lower ones inhibitions but it is court ordered.

It is a violation of his 5th Amendment because his entire defense hinges on this ruling and it will be based entirely on testimony coerced from him under the effects of a drug. If he says anything that indicates to the judge that he was not insane at the time his entire defense is blown.

We have hit an all time low with this....

Originally posted by Daughter2
This is just crazy. If you read all the current studies, truth serum isn't that accurate.

It’s not - I have seen it used in practice and had it administered to me in "training". Its effects are much like being under hypnosis or being very drunk. It won't make you say or do anything you know to be "wrong" or believe to be counter to your own morals but it will make those who are so inclined and on the verge of breaking more likely to do so.

It will also amplify any emotions you are feeling - so if you are feeling paranoid it will be worse...which is why it is a used interrogation after the subject is starting to "break". It’s to reinforce the feelings of rationalization they have (whatever they have chosen to justify their breaking) regarding the fact they are about to spill the beans. It will make them feel that these thoughts are justified.

Timing in application is an art and practiced by those at the top of the business because used incorrectly it can actually, like I said reinforce feelings of resistance rather than compliance.

Also, too much and you get a babbling mess, too little and you get a person emboldened rather than subdued like being drunk but just enough to give you that self confidence boost but not to be stupid drunk.

It is a good tool at the right time...

reply to post by BobM88

Why are you so adamant about his "innocence"?

Originally posted by BobM88
reply to post by thesmokingman

 

Then convict him without removing his 5th amendment rights. If he's as guilty as you seem to believe, it's a slam-dunk, right?

And who said anything about me thinking he was guilty?

Originally posted by Golf66

Polygraphs are not admissible in court at all. It is primarily an investigative tool that helps rule out certain distracters and get them pointed in the right direction.

I do realize that the jury deciding his case will likely never see or hear what happens while he is under the effects of the drugs because in effect they are trying to use the drug to make sure that he is indeed insane as he claims.

So only the Judge who makes the determination on that count will be the one reviewing and ruling on this "evidence".

However, all that said their use of a drug is tantamount to enhanced interrogation.

It is not admissible in a regular jury trial but in this case it is being allowed because a judge will be making the determination that he was insane at the time of the incident. I say this is bunk - It would be no different than being required to give testimony after 10 shots of tequila.

If you show up to vote drunk its illegal, to drive drunk is illegal, to show up to work is illegal in many cases, most certainly you show up to testify as a witness either for defense or prosecution drunk and you will be charged with contempt and your testimony stricken.

In this case not only will his testimony be allowed under the effects of a drug that is intended to lower ones inhibitions but it is court ordered.

It is a violation of his 5th Amendment because his entire defense hinges on this ruling and it will be based entirely on testimony coerced from him under the effects of a drug. If he says anything that indicates to the judge that he was not insane at the time his entire defense is blown.

We have hit an all time low with this....

Originally posted by Daughter2
This is just crazy. If you read all the current studies, truth serum isn't that accurate.

It’s not - I have seen it used in practice and had it administered to me in "training". Its effects are much like being under hypnosis or being very drunk. It won't make you say or do anything you know to be "wrong" or believe to be counter to your own morals but it will make those who are so inclined and on the verge of breaking more likely to do so.

It will also amplify any emotions you are feeling - so if you are feeling paranoid it will be worse...which is why it is a used interrogation after the subject is starting to "break". It’s to reinforce the feelings of rationalization they have (whatever they have chosen to justify their breaking) regarding the fact they are about to spill the beans. It will make them feel that these thoughts are justified.

Timing in application is an art and practiced by those at the top of the business because used incorrectly it can actually, like I said reinforce feelings of resistance rather than compliance.

Also, too much and you get a babbling mess, too little and you get a person emboldened rather than subdued like being drunk but just enough to give you that self confidence boost but not to be stupid drunk.

It is a good tool at the right time...

edit on 11/3/2013 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)

You really deserve a lot of stars for the information and insight you just provided. I think a lot of people need to know that beyond rights, the complexity and details of this procedure is important as well.

What if he spills the beans on a government operation? I predict he is a liability and won't be alive three months from now.

No one here has asked the most obvious question: Is it evidence?

If it is evidence, then it must be subject to being fully vetted, if not, there is no reason at all to do it and it is in clear violation of the 5th amendment. Of course the 5th does not apply to slaves, of which Sir James is one, but at least we can pretend.

His accused act is not special, it is no different then another other accused act, as such, his rights, such as they are, cannot be violated simply because someone, or something, feels that what he stands accused of is beyond awful. Even the Nazi were given a fair trial at Nuremberg.

I will say this, being "insane" will alter the case, and will prevent him from testifying as his testimony would be considered dubious at best - lest he want to say something like, "I didn't do it, and, there were three other people there..."

Originally posted by crankyoldman
No one here has asked the most obvious question: Is it evidence?

It is not evidence that will affect the outcome of his trial it is being treated as part of the interviews and examinations by medical personnel to determine the veracity of his claim of being insane at the time of the murders.

So - in the strictest sense it is not "evidence" no. However, the ruling made by the judge based on his assessment of what is said during the "interview" by psychiatric doctors will very much have a bearing on his case and in fact his entire defense.

Therefore it is my opinion to order him to take a drug that lowers his inhibitions is a direct attempt to get him to say something that will counter his initial claims of being insane becase he has yet to do so. It is in effect making him incriminate himself by court order IMO.

However, I am in no way a Judge or even a lawyer. I am; however, a pretty experienced investigator and if consulted on this case after any ruing that James was deemed sane based on any statement made while under the influence of these drugs I would recommend appeal.

Appeal based on the fact the court violated his 5th amendment rights by compelling him to incriminate himself under the influence of a drug designed to lower his inhibition to do so. Under the influence of the drug he likely will not be concerned with his rights at all...