Magick - Old vs New

It amazes me how many times I read a review for a book on Magick and I see comments such as:

"The theories presented here have become dated..."
or
"This was 20 years ago - but still a good foundation."

It seems that so many practitioners of magick believe that "old" magick (ie. 20 to 300 years ago) is nowhere near as effective as new current magick, if effective at all.

Somehow, this seems almost contradictory to me, since when the old magick twenty years ago was practiced, the person doing the magick believed with all his mind that that his magick would work - complete faith - and it did work.

However, suddenly, we are told that this is old and won't work anymore.

Hell, the most powerful magicians I know believe that the more ancient the magick, the more powerful it is. I just don't get why so many "modern" practitioners in magick are so fickle when it comes to evaluating the power of a particular "old" or "new" magick, even when the gap is as little as 20 years.

Thoughts?

No doubt its to sell their book. The thing is that all these 'new' systems tend to be rehash's of the older work anyway.

In the UK we had the 'Chaos' magick phenomena back in the 80/90 's that initially was a breath of fresh air but like all things became a band wagon once the 'main stream' publishers got involved and then added 'Chaos' to every title regardless of actual content.

Of course with our modern lifestyles etc, not all of us can devote a room to temple use, or have the time and space or money for the full regalia of high magick. This possibly explains why the more 'traditional' magick is trickier to perform.

I think that the person writing that sort of forward or statement in books shows a lack of understanding of the real nature of magick.

What is magic/mystical to some is normal to others. Just because it is not quantified and called paranormal do not make it abnormal.

If you have something old or something new then test them and see what is more effective. But just because something old was effective then do not make it sure it is effective now. You can have enviromental differences and indocrinational barriers that are different depending on times and places.

Originally posted by LittleByLittle
You can have enviromental differences and indocrinational barriers that are different depending on times and places.

Good point, but I've always thought of new magick as offering alternatives for those who are not suited to older types. For example, chaos offers an alternative to more traditional ritualistic magick.

Still, I think the older ways is very much as potent as it always has been, provided that the magick chosen matches the mind and personality of the user.

Perhaps there is a lot of truth to current93's comment about trying to sell more copies of a book. Sad really, since a true practitioner of magick should do it for the love of the art - not for financial gain or similar motives.

I think new magick doesn't work as well as old. It looks now more like hokey feel-good rituals, whereas the further back you get, the more powerful it seems to be. Perhaps because long ago they were closer to the origin of it.

But I agree also with the idea that it's just a way of selling a book. Have you ever gotten ahold of a book (for me it's baby name books) that you really like, and it becomes your authority on the subject and everything else takes second place? Maybe too many people see it as the newer the book, the better the info, and if the old ones say something different, obviously it's the old ones that are wrong. As if magick books are science papers or something

reply to post by Saurus


Witchcraft must necessarily reflect current social conditions and mores; magick must necessarily not, as it remains almost entirely unchanged since Plotinus was dubbed a neo-Platonist.

What is this 'new' magick?

Chaos magick, is certainly not new, Frater U.D., was born in '52 and 'Chaos Magick' was 'new' when I was a very young man.

And none of that is new now or was even new then; it just seemed new because A. O. Spare was not really on anyone's radar yet.

The authors that write and publish books on magick worked their way down to Crowley's bones in the 70s, so they began picking at Spare's Corpse immediately thereafter, that's all.

So where is this 'new' stuff?

I believe it all goes back to "Old" magick. Authors just tend to update and change with the times, to get readers attention.

I tend to go directly back to the "Old". It's amazing what you can find in old books, especially "country" dwelling magazines and articles written about the old ways. Although it wasn't called Magick. It was just the way they did things. And had been passed down for generations.

Originally posted by chiefsmom
I believe it all goes back to "Old" magick. Authors just tend to update and change with the times, to get readers attention.

I tend to go directly back to the "Old". It's amazing what you can find in old books, especially "country" dwelling magazines and articles written about the old ways. Although it wasn't called Magick. It was just the way they did things. And had been passed down for generations.

Completely and utterly agree !

I have been a witch in several lifetimes (I'm a Pastlife Regression Therapist) and a practicing 'Solitary' in this lifetime for over 25yrs and have always followed the old traditional path (old habits die hard) ... for me it is so powerful and effective whereas the 'new' stuff just seems like a dilute version of the original ... more 'fluffy' and 'hollywoodized' in an effort to attract the younger people who have watched a few films about witchcraft and think it looks 'cool' (The Craft and Practical Magick springs to mind)

But each to their own ... and my own will always be 'the old way' !

Woody

reply to post by Saurus


Simplicity.

The current generation interested in magical theory, the younger generation, are not capable of holding their interest to a single topic for very long. I do generalize, as there are many, many practitioners who are capable. The current trend though, as with all other cultural arts, is to simplify things, make them quicker, less involved, and reduce the complexity. Take angelic magic, for example.

During the Medieval Age and the Renaissance angelic magic was known as Enochiana. This was a very complex system, with it's own fully-functioning language, an independent set of rituals, maical squares, invocations, tools, and preparations. All of this was collected together by a pair of extremely dedicated astrologer/divinators, John Dee, and Edward Kelley.

In the 1800 and early 1900s, Angelic Magic blended with Occult studies, Theosophy, and Hermetics. The result was reinterpretations of "ancient" Grimoires, featuring sigils, rituals, times of day, specific prayers and invocations, and various interpretations of sacred Hebraic works like the Zohar, or general Kaballistic practices (called Qabala by the adept). Despite the complexity, and ceremonial element of this Occult Angelic Magic, it was still greatly simplified from the strict guidelines of Dee and Kelley's work.

Now, if you buy a book from Silver Ravenwolf, or some other New Age, Wiccan, or Neopagan, concerning Angelic Magic, you'll find a brand new spin on things. It usually involves visualization, thinking "good," or "pure" thoughts, and wanting the angel to come bless you, or help you through whatever trial you believe you are in the middle of. The ceremony, the magical accumulation of will, spirit, and energy, the focus and dedication to the Art being performed... all of it is gone. Angelic Magic in the New Age no longer requires fealty to a cause. All it requires now is a candle, and some happy thoughts.

The same thing is occurring all over various magical and mystical schools of thought. I think it is because more modern generations have become significantly more flighty than their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors. This is why you have hacks like Carlos Casteneda going around trying to promote non-native Shamanism, as having been legitimate. Or why writers like Douglas Monroe were blacklisted by other Druids as being full of misinterpretations, had been mistranslated, or were outright lies. The defining thread though, is always simplicity. Removing the actual dedication from the magic, and trying to make it viable for anyone and everyone who has five minutes of free time, and is bored.

Not that there aren't/weren't still exceptional magicians, Druids, and Seiðr out there though. People like John Michael Greer, Aaron Leitch, Chic and Tabatha Cicero, Isaac Bonewits, and Migene González-Wippler, among others, are/were all dedicated writers who did their best to present the magical theory as close to it's origin as possible. Many of them even (Greer, Leitch, Bonewits, González-Wippler) also have degrees in historical, anthropological, or comparative fields which accompany their writings and practices.

So really, I think it all depends on who's books you pick up, and with what level of dedication you begin your study of the Art. If you're not-so-dedicated, and you pick up a book by Silver Ravenwolf, or Konstantinos, then you'll get out exactly as much as you put in. If, however, you have dedication and devotion to the art, and you pick up a book by any of the other scholarly magicians I've mentioned here, then you'll definitely get more bang for your buck.

~ Wandering Scribe

Nicely thought provoking. In my opinion, there's three distinct types of magick, ancient, old, and new.

The ancients lived it, quite simply enough. The old "school" canonized it, and made it teachable. The new "school" is a dilution of knowledge, a quick sell, and an inferior mindset that easy is better.

It's easy to say that as time wears on, magick becomes less powerful, and more simplified, but in reality the magick has remained the same, it's just our perceptions being tainted by misinformation and lack of devotion. I may disagree with some old school rituals, but I'll never present a way that's newer or better, only different. I'll never hold a copyright on arcane knowledge, nor say a technique is dated. Follow the type of magick your path requires, and remember that learning never ceases.

I'm always wary of an author that proclaims something "new." Too much ego always upsets the balance.

Magick is like a box of choc-o-lates. You take out one, unwrap it, and something happens which turns the world into a personal playground while at the same time educating you about how it's all right "here" in the first place and only dwelve into it when you remember that. Then you unwrap an older piece of choc-o-late, and see that the pathway of one meets all the others right at the of the mountain and, as long as you have a language in which to fit it into, you can run down any side or just be at the bottom in less than an instant. Then you pick up another...oh, the bus is coming. Good talking to you, enjoy your trip. Well, hello. My name is Forrest, would you like a choc-o-late? You remind me of my great aunt Susanne, now she knew about...

There is evolving as we speak a new style of Magic. Cyber magick with a whole new set of protocols and rituals.
The power of this discipline derives from it's secrecy and intent. Strangely most of the devotees and adherents are based in the hard sciences from academia. They found something! Cyber voodoo if you will...

Originally posted by olaru12

There is evolving as we speak a new style of Magic. Cyber magick with a whole new set of protocols and rituals.
The power of this discipline derives from it's secrecy and intent.

This is the first I have heard of this, and although I am not familiar with "Cyber Magick", I can't help to disagree with secrecy being a source of power.

The only reason for secrecy in the past (with all mystery schools) has been to force the candidate to choose to be initiated (where applicable, as initiation is necessary for certain disciplines), but I have never heard of secrecy being a source of power, nor can I fathom how this could be so.

Would you care to expand on how secrecy might be a source of power. I am interested to hear your reasoning.

Old...new...

Principles are the same...so is the level of misunderstanding and stagnation...

...it's easy to whisper in muted undertones to render yourself mysterious...make snake eyes when playing poker...doesn't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing...9 iron damage...

Idiot savants don't need to learn the alphabet to write poetry, others need that foundation...old, new...makes no difference if you're just play acting...while not knoeing what doors you're unlocking and what you might be 'conjuring' in...

As always, keep a sharp sword and a keen minds eye...knoeledge can never be...OLD...

A99

reply to post by Saurus


I know that the idea of Silence has magickal implication in a variety of magical schools of thought. I'm not sure if Keeping Silent, as it is called in those disciplines, is the same as the "secrecy" of cyber-magic or not though.

The traditional Hermetic Quaternary is one such example, it is typically presented as a Triangle within a Circle. The Triangle's three sides being:

To Know
Equivalent of the Classical Element: Earth
And the Alchemists Mercury

To Will
Equivalent to the Classical Element: Air
And the Alchemists Salt

To Dare
Equivalent to the Classical Element: Fire
And the Alchemists Sulfur

The Circle which encloses the Triangle representing the physical body, the vessel through which the magical energies may be worked with, channeled, and cultivated, is known as:

To Keep Silent
Equivalent to the Classical Element: Water
And the entirety of the Alchemists elements

Also, in a variety of cultures you have deities, or heroes, who's names imply Silence, or secrecy.

Ninhursag, the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, and Chaldean mother-goddess, under the epithet Nin-Sig-Sig, means "The Lady of Silence," and was related to our neutral moral and ethical compass upon birth.

Horus the Younger is known as The Silent One in Egyptian, Greek, and Thelemic magical practices.

In Norse mythology the god Víðarr had associations with ritual silence and magical quietude.

Again though, I don't know if "cyber magicians" are really thinking hard enough to put together all of the above connections, ha ha. But, some food for thought.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by olaru12

There is evolving as we speak a new style of Magic. Cyber magick with a whole new set of protocols and rituals.
The power of this discipline derives from it's secrecy and intent. Strangely most of the devotees and adherents are based in the hard sciences from academia. They found something! Cyber voodoo if you will...

edit on 11-3-2013 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

This is interesting! I have been developing a flavor of "Cyber Magick" over the past 20+ years. This Magick is based on ancient as well as more recent teachings. Western ceremonial Magick, Golden Dawn, Crowley, et al., Enochian Magick, and Chaos magick, as well as 40+ years of my own research.

New protocols indeed! Much more tech involved, and the reaching of "Magical Space" through different mechanisms. Tis great fun and so far moderately successful.

reply to post by Saurus


Please elaborate as I would love to hear what type of magic/magik you think you can really control.