The universe is expanding with the speed of light..

The other day I was day dreaming about the size of the universe....you know....how big...and what lies beyond the border of the universe, what is the universe expanding into. Many of you interested in the universe must have asked these questions and had to stop thinking because the answer must be something we can not comprehend.

So I got stuck with the only question that I could handle with my limited brainpower, knowledge of physics and limited knowledge of the Big Bang theory. Maybe scientist have already figured out this question in the thread title and if you happen to know it, please do not hesitate to tell me. Anyways, these thoughts are based on the Big Bang theory.

I will try to put my thoughts into words and hope you can follow and understand my train of thoughts.

I came to the "speed of light" conclusion because of one simple reason, light is the fastest "thing" in the universe and is traveling through space...

If light would reach the edge of expansion and could not go further it would bounce back or be absorbed by the border/edge of the universe. This would give the edge a consistancy and other properties than space itself. Unless the universe is expanding into something with those other properties there is no reason to think that this is the case and do I assume that light will and can travel freely and therefore defines the outer edge of the universe.

Asking me in what light beyond the border ofthe universe will travel I do not know. But I think it is clear that the universe is expanding into something completely empty and allows the universe to expand into freely....maybe the fact that light enters this complete emptyness makes it "to be".....makes everything "to be".

...do I make any sense to you..?

If you have any other ideas, explanations of how our universe is "growing" please share.. If you have corrections or additions....nothing is to crazy in this world...

I've heard many times that it's expanding faster than the speed of light, but haven't actually read in to it, if it's true then nothing can actually interact with the "edge" of the universe. If it can, we simply don't know the outcome, we might never know. It's mind blowing to think about.

Light would never reach the edge if it was expanding at the speed of light either, it needs to be expanding slower than light.

What if everything is growing at a same rate where you wouldn't be able to notice any change at all?

Your theory makes sense to me, yet it's a very tough concept to grasp. Just thinking about the size is enough to make my brain shut down.
On the topic of expansion into emptiness, who's to say its truly empty? Anything could be out there. If a tree falls in a Forrest and noone is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

This topic is very thought provoking.. I need to go and ponder this for a while haha

What if the universe is a doughnut shape where every direction you go in loops round.

It might be its just the gaps between stuff that is expending. Internal expansion. This way the micro expansion could a rate that relativly slow but the combined expansion ie. the expansion speed difference between the 2 furthest ends of the universe would seem to be going faster than the speed of light.

Originally posted by ElOmen
What if everything is growing at a same rate where you wouldn't be able to notice any change at all?

From the expansion they can observe in the universe, this is precisely what is happening.

I would add that if there was a big bang, we are inside of it, and if there were an observer outside our expanding universe, our universe wouldn't exist until the edge reached the observer. Once it reached the observer, it would appear to be as small as when it started, however, to us on the inside, it is as large as it is now.

Strange thing is everything is spreading away from everything else, so there is no center of expansion where the bang originates. So everything is growing from every point. Maybe that is how the bang is, a non-point source expanding from the past everywhere and growing out into the future. Maybe it's expanding from the future into the past.

When you reach the speed of light, your time slows relative to non-moving objects, that is because you're catching up with the expansion of the bang and traveling at the speed of time (my theory).

ETA: If an object could be stationary with respect to the big bang, the expansion would expand around it at top speed and it's existence would be just an instant compare to the object that caught up with the expansion wave that would appear to stop and exist forever (IMO).

reply to post by PhoenixOD


I have also thought something similar to this.

The entire universe is round and connects to itself (Like a Racing circuit).

If we were to travel at the speed of light or beyond, the universe would appear infinite; but it would also appear to be completely straight too because of its vast incomprehensible size

We wouldn't notice turns or bends.

"Asking me in what light beyond the border ofthe universe will travel I do not know. But I think it is clear that the universe is expanding into something completely empty and allows the universe to expand into freely....maybe the fact that light enters this complete emptyness makes it "to be".....makes everything "to be". "

The universe, in my opinion, is expanding TOWARDS itself (That is if it is a 100% fact that the universe is expanding at all).

That empty space has been there for eternity, it just can't be observed because there is no light to make it observable. White Light and dark had co-existed forever beside each other fighting for "space". Both have equal and opposite "properties". And one day something had to give; so somehow light "pierced" through to the "dark" side of space and it created everything that is today. No big bang in my opinion. Kinda of like the "What would happen if the worlds most powerful gun was shot at the worlds most resilient shield"; My answer is they'd merge.

If you get what I'm trying to say. So my answer is space is just expanding into areas of space that already exist but are just not observable until more stars or galaxies are born to shed light into those areas.

reply to post by zatara

If you have any other ideas, explanations of how our universe is "growing" please share.. If you have corrections or additions....nothing is to crazy in this world...

It's even weirder and more mind shattering than you think. Based on the latest cosmological models, the knowable universe is a hypersphere, the boundary of which is at a distance from the observer-- any observer-- at which the expansion of the universe is at a rate equal to the speed of light. The observer is situated at a point at the edge of the universe to any observer at any point along this boundary. In other words, the universe may not have an edge, and you are located at it!

reply to post by zatara



Op, I can shed light on this for you. Your assumption about light interacting with, thus making the edge of the universe visible would be correct, if it had an edge, which at present, we believe it does not have, as understood from the view of an object having edges.

There are at present 2 theories.

1 flat space, in which the universe is flat, thus infinite in all directions, so there would be no edge ever.

2 curved space, which means that as was already mentioned, space is shaped more like a donut, and if one were to leave earth and tracek in a straight line at any speed, even at many times the speed of light, one would never reach the edge, all one would do is eventualky make it back to the earth, where they started.

If anyone needs a more in depth explanation, I will be more than happy to help, I love talking about physics.

More specificaly astrophysics, which fascinates me to no end.

 "What would happen if the worlds most powerful gun was shot at the worlds most resilient shield"; My answer is they'd merge. 

reply to post by Chipkin9
this is what is known as the unanswerable question, and it goes like this
" what happens when irresistible force meets immovable object" the answer is " they yield" which could be taken as they merge, or that they both fail, and nothing happens.

This btw was quoted from allstar superman, such a good story that one was.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

 "What would happen if the worlds most powerful gun was shot at the worlds most resilient shield"; My answer is they'd merge. 

reply to post by Chipkin9

 

this is what is known as the unanswerable question, and it goes like this
" what happens when irresistible force meets immovable object" the answer is " they yield" which could be taken as they merge, or that they both fail, and nothing happens.

This btw was quoted from allstar superman, such a good story that one was.

edit on 11-3-2013 by inverslyproportional because: (no reason given)

Thanks, I was unaware of where the analogy came from or the exact wording, but I guess I was close enough

Those sort of questions are fascinating to me. I enjoy my brain melting trying to figure them out

But, the answer does make sense; since the immovable object can't be pierced, and the irresistible force pierces everything, then there'd have to be a solution, and that would be that they'd become one.

I believe this is the story of the universe; Specifically Light and Dark which I believe have co-existed forever.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
There are at present 2 theories.

1 flat space, in which the universe is flat, thus infinite in all directions, so there would be no edge ever.

2 curved space, which means that as was already mentioned, space is shaped more like a donut, and if one were to leave earth and tracek in a straight line at any speed, even at many times the speed of light, one would never reach the edge, all one would do is eventualky make it back to the earth, where they started.

You could say flat or not flat, but there are two types of not flat geometry in relativity, and I've never heard either described as a donut, usually a sphere versus a "saddle" as seen here:

Geometry of the universe

The flat surface at the left is said to have zero curvature, the spherical surface is said to have positive curvature, and the saddle-shaped surface is said to have negative curvature.

No donuts there, so I'm not sure where you got "donut" from.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

I've never heard either described as a donut, usually a sphere versus a "saddle" as seen here:

its a well known theory

Doughnut theory of the universe:

The doughnut theory of the universe is an informal description of the theory that the shape of the universe is a three-dimensional torus. The name comes from the shape of a doughnut, whose surface has the topology of a two-dimensional torus.

source

If the universe is expanding at the speed of light then we will never know it. to the observer it appears there is no end and no beginning. we need warp technology to figure this out, probably already have in some dark corners. I mean if the government has time travel then they have space travel too. we are just rediscovering things we learned from space travelers in ancient times, and keeping it all top secret to boot.

In order to have a red or blue shift in light frequency doesn't the star itself
have to be traveling faster than the speed of light to effect the frequency change.

That sort of killed any Einstein theories on solid bodies not going faster than light
speed because facts show the observations of solid bodies must have faster
than light speeds.

Originally posted by zatara
I came to the "speed of light" conclusion because of one simple reason, light is the fastest "thing" in the universe and is traveling through space...

Sort of, though if big bang theory is correct, it's likely that many galaxies we observe are receding faster than the speed of light so I don't think your idea makes much sense in the standard cosmological model called the Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker metric:

Superluminal Recession Velocities

Here we show that galaxies with recession velocities faster than the speed of light are observable and that in all viable cosmological models, galaxies above a redshift of three are receding superluminally.

So the speed of light is not such a constraint in the cosmological model involving the metric expansion of space.

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
its a well known theory

There is still a lot of confusion if you look at the context in this this was mentioned. Here is what was said about that model:

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
There are at present 2 theories.

1 flat space, in which the universe is flat, thus infinite in all directions, so there would be no edge ever.

2 curved space, which means that as was already mentioned, space is shaped more like a donut, and if one were to leave earth and tracek in a straight line at any speed, even at many times the speed of light, one would never reach the edge, all one would do is eventualky make it back to the earth, where they started.

If you look up Wiki's shape of the universe article, the doughnut shape is listed under the "flat space" section, not as an alternative to flat space.

Flat universe

...See the doughnut theory of the universe.

So the doughnut theory is a "flat universe" theory, not an alternative to it as was claimed by inverslyproportional, right?

Originally posted by SpearMint
I've heard many times that it's expanding faster than the speed of light, but haven't actually read in to it, if it's true then nothing can actually interact with the "edge" of the universe. If it can, we simply don't know the outcome, we might never know. It's mind blowing to think about.

Light would never reach the edge if it was expanding at the speed of light either, it needs to be expanding slower than light.

edit on 11-3-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

I never heared that one before and would very much try to understand the workings of that theory...the faster than light expansion that is. Especially because faster than light is (still) science fiction.

Replying to your second thought.... In my explanation it is light...because of its speed....which is responsible for the borde/edge of the expansion.

Originally posted by zatara
I never heared that one before and would very much try to understand the workings of that theory...the faster than light expansion that is. Especially because faster than light is (still) science fiction.

Faster than light recessional velocities of galaxies is not science fiction. But they don't travel through space faster than light, the recessional velocity results from the metric expansion of space. The paper I just linked explains it, though it probably helps to know math to understand it.

reply to post by DJW001

Based on the latest cosmological models, the knowable universe is a hypersphere, the boundary of which is at a distance from the observer-- any observer-- at which the expansion of the universe is at a rate equal to the speed of light.

As you say, correctly, this is the observed boundary of the observable ('knowable') universe. That is because light from objects beyond this boundary will never reach the observer.

But it doesn't mean that nothing exists beyond the observed boundary. In fact, the universe is bigger than the observable portion of it due to the metric expansion of space. In fact, the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.