Reincarnation and the "Little Deaths"

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posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by bb23108
Oh, and my apologies, OP, this is a bit off the topic of reincarnation


Not at all! This is the philosophy forum. Philosophize away! I don't find it off-topic at all. You folks are just breaking down what it means to know vs. to believe. I appreciate the discussion.
edit on 12-3-2013 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 06:03 PM
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This may be true. But, I think the crux here is that some believe, but aren't willing to adjust their beliefs when evidence points to the contrary; they cling to their so-called pacifier. I have beliefs, but I don't write them in stone. I am willing to change my outlook. After all, isn't a belief just a little like a hypothesis? It is the first step of the scientific method. If my belief doesn't hold up to the data, then the belief must be revised. There actually is data on the subject of reincarnation, as many other posters have pointed to various case studies. You can't say there is no qualitative data on the subject. Are these case studies conclusive? No, not for many. That is why we continue to discuss the belief.

Hypothesis-

a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.

dictionary.reference.com...
The difference here is that reincarnation is not really an observable phenomenon. We just have to go based on, well, belief, and the testimonials, and case studies of others. Is this observation or fantasy? Hard for me to say. It's a fine line in this case.


Yes getting tied up with semantics is easy to do, and is often a tactic used by people with hardcore belief systems to argue their point. The key is to remain open, and just see things for what they are without the labels and preconceived ideas. In this way, there's no need to explain everything, because some of the things we experience cannot readily BE explained. But they do serve an important purpose, and that is to expand our awareness. This reality we live in is very dream-like in many ways.

Reincarnation is an observable phenomenon for some of us. And so are UFOs, angels, and other things that light up in the night. I can't prove it, but I do feel that's it's important for me to share my experiences along these lines. Why? Because I would want you to share these things with me if the situation was reversed. Also, it might help someone who is in a rut or who is scared because of something they have experienced.

I can hear it now in the afterlife - "You knew all these things and didn't tell me... WHY?" Well I am telling my experiences to anyone that will listen. If you look at my posting history you will see that I don't pull any punches and am not afraid to take the heat. It's not for glory or some elevated status, because usually all it brings is ridicule and judgement. You don't seem at all like the type that would do this NB, but I think you know where I'm coming from.



Only if you're rigid in your beliefs and not willing to change them. But if you're set in your beliefs, you're not setting yourself up for anything because you probably won't acknowledge when your belief has been invalidated (not that I recommend the latter approach at all.)


Agreed. What you are calling beliefs I call considerations. Just semantics and not a problem.



Okay, this makes sense and I see what you're saying about haphazardly perpetuating ignorance. That's not what this site is about, right? But I think most of us here are mature enough to discuss it without getting wounded.

Thanks for your post, by the way. Indeed we do walk a tightrope when dealing with unsupported belief and faith. You simply have reminded us to be wary of where we step.


This thread is one of, if not the best I've had the pleasure of participating in on ATS. You've hit me right in the wheelhouse my friend. It's most definitely a process. I started out with my truth, which was infintesimally small. This truth was challenged and beaten, battered, stretched, and given back to me in microscopic pieces which did not vaguely resemble what I started out with. I backed up and regrouped I don't know how many times.

Also, I choose my replies very carefully, because my internet access is quite limited. For this reason, I respond to very few posts. Quality over quantity.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha
reply to post by crzayfool
 



I don't think they were trying to say something like, "Oh, Rama's body got turned into worm food that helped give nutrients to the soil which grows the grass which feeds the cow that gives milk to the human that killed the cat that ate the rat in the house that Krishna was born in and that's how reincarnation works!"

I see what you're saying, and like I said, The Great Circle of Life can't be disputed. But I think reincarnation is a little more literal and direct than that.


I got a good laugh from that. I, too, understand what he was saying, but you are correct... that is not what reincarnation is all about.

Sorry for the short post. Always in a hurry. Just wanted to tell you I got a kick out of your response. Very Good, Sir!
edit on 3/12/2013 by sled735 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 07:05 PM
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Quite an interesting read and I do believe that reincarnation exists



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 08:15 PM
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Just thought this video is so apropos.

Continue with the great dialogue






posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 04:11 AM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


I like this post, and it got me thinking. I also have a lot of memories of dying and death. I sort of cling to a "victim" thing, personally, and I don't like it.

Which brings me to karma. I don't like it either.

I think there is strength to be had in the overcoming of the trauma of death and dying. Now, if I could only remember, feel and take responsibility for those lives in which I was the killer, the murderer, the cold and evil one.

Those memories don't come as easily as the victim ones do. "Why is that?" she asks to no one in particular.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 04:52 AM
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I want to believe in the consciousness after death, but nothing lasts forever, one day the last human will be dead, the last star stop shining, and the whole universe will be a dark, dead place.
The only thing that makes us different from the animals is the intelligence, our needs, even the basic driving forces are the same. There is no universal "meaning of life", only goal of life, and this is the reproduction. Yes, there is a "meaning of YOUR life" but its unique to everyone.
The death itself is not a scary thing, i had lost my consciousness before, and it was nothing uncomfortable, its the separation from my loved ones that makes me sad. And I think this is the hardest part, understanding that our actions doesn't really matter, that we wont see our dead loved ones again, that we've got one chance, this is why we created the afterlife in our mind.
Our existence is only a brief flash in the universe, and we waste it. Focus on life, not death.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by MortalFlesh
nothing lasts forever



one day the last human will be dead, the last star stop shining, and the whole universe will be a dark, dead place.



The only thing that makes us different from the animals is the intelligence



There is no universal "meaning of life"



our actions doesn't really matter

Sources? These sound like your opinions, and not facts.

Focus on life, not death.

Take your own advice, friend.
edit on 13-3-2013 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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Sources? These sound like your opinions, and not facts.

Of course these are only opinions, but i don't want to find out the truth yet.

I believe everything has an end, because i haven't found anything that doesn't age or otherwise decay, but I guess we can only have opinions in this subject, the only way to know it for sure is to die.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 10:20 AM
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I have developed a method. I sit in nature and imagine that my consciousness exists in everything, both seen and unseen, and they exist in me. This helps to focus and keep myself grounded. Looking at myself from all these varying perspectives sometimes makes me feel silly for getting caught up with insignificant problems that I mostly create for myself sometimes through believing things. When you look at what's in your heart from the tree's perspective, it can be very humbling. Remaining in this state of mind is very freeing and is what I aim for.

I try to carry this over into my sleep time. Striving to remain aware when falling asleep is a good place to start. With focus and intent it gets easier. I will also say that keeping a record of your dreams and making this a top priority helps immensely. Writing them down is very helpful, although a voice recorder works better. That way you don't have to fumble around with the lights and a pen and paper while the memory quickly fades. You can transcribe them onto paper at a later time. Review them occasionally.

This is not an easy process, and baby steps in the beginning are most likely all the progress you're going to realize. Sometimes if you lie completely still for about ten minutes while focusing on remaining aware, your body will go to sleep but the mind is free to roam. This is when the most gains can be made.

Slowly pieces start to fall into place and potentially the bridge is formed. Of course, your results may vary I can't give you any guarantees. Sorry if this strays from the topic, but doing these things helped me along the way.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by Symbiot
 



It's simple physics. Reincarnation must occur unless the human race is destroyed and even then there's a chance the entire human race could be reincarnated on some planet somewhere in the universe.

Nothing to it, and yes the whole thing is not magical or mystical, its simply is. On a long enough timeline everybody's chances for survival drops to zero. But on a even longer timeline every thing that ever was, is guaranteed to come back again, to this particular form in this particular combinations in the long stretches of eternity everything that was will be again. Reincarnation is merely the reconstitution of all the variables of what was into what is. The enigma that stumped many in ages past, that is change is the only constant.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 07:50 PM
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The enigma that stumped many in ages past, that is change is the only constant.

A wise man may ask...Why is change the only constant?

To which a wiser man may answer....Why not?


But in the end its likely same question only reconstituted in different forms.
It may all be just an exercise in semantics. That which we call and see a thing as, is the very thing which gives it its form.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 08:47 PM
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Is it really necessary to remember past events to be free of them - whether such events occurred in this life or in a prior life? Doesn't our everyday experience show us that there is an essential non-necessity about everything arising in terms of our fundamental existence or being?

Each day we get up and figure this is our actual reality - this waking state - and we may start asking all kinds of questions about why are we here, what is up with this neurosis, etc., etc. We notice things change but usually predictably, and we generally can handle most of what we encounter.

After all day long of this presuming that we are a separate "I" over against everything arising, we go to bed at night and enter the dream state. Here we still feel separate in the midst of dream objects and others arising, but everything is much more fluid, changing, and our lines of separate identity are not so obviously felt, but we don't really mind that. However, in our dream state, we don't feel any less real in terms of who we are, if we remember our dream state.

And then we enter the deep sleep state in which there are no objects, others, and states arising. Here we get our best rest because the "I" has subsided, as there are no objects and others stimulating an "I". We wake up and tacitly know that we rested well, if we did indeed fall into a deep dreamless sleep.

So we get up and go about our waking state business once again. Notice that each of these three states are quite different. The deep sleep state shows us that our fundamental being does exist beyond any objects arising, and so the whole necessity we place on objects in the waking state for our existence can be considered in a different light.

It is not that objects, others, thoughts, memories, etc., are to be eliminated or avoided, etc., but such objects, memories, thoughts, etc., are not necessary even in our waking state. So why do we hang on to all these past memories, all the thinking, thinking, thinking, etc., if this is not essential to awareness? It is for the sake of reinforcing the ego-I, a pattern of self-contraction that gives us a sense of separate self, but does not actually exist as a separate entity. This separative activity is what must be released, not the memories themselves.

The daily cycle of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep (beyond dreams), proves that the only constant in the midst of all three states is consciousness itself - not memories, not past lives, not anything but awareness. If such memories were actually necessary for our fundamental existence or awareness itself, they would have to also exist in the deep sleep state.

So everyday we are reminded that only awareness or consciousness is constant in all three states. You may argue that you don't always remember dreams and certainly not deep sleep. But you do at times remember dreams, and even tacitly remember deep sleep because when you wake up from deep sleep, you feel like you slept very well. You may even say I slept well, but I didn't dream.

This is because our fundamental being, awareness itself, was free of all objects for this period of deep sleep time and that is deeply refreshing to the whole body-mind. So each day we are given proof that we do not absolutely need all these past memories, thoughts, etc., for our existence - and the more we simply abide in our fundamental awareness, the more these various objects will cease to control/influence our psyche. In fact, we become much simpler in our need for all sorts of physical objects too, as we abide more and more in the sufficiency of Reality or consciousness itself.

So yeah, each day is a new opportunity as the OP is pointing out.
edit on 13-3-2013 by bb23108 because:



posted on Mar, 14 2013 @ 11:42 AM
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I like to think that reincarnation is real. Just like previous replies have said, it fits in with that idea of energy recycling, and that nothing ever reaches an end. And I think it was Voltaire who said "It is no more surprising to be born twice than once."
I like that a lot.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by galadofwarthethird
 


You have made a tremendous point. Bye the way, are you a huge Star-gate fan. Just wondering because you picture looks like something from that series.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by chisisiCoptos
reply to post by galadofwarthethird
 


You have made a tremendous point. Bye the way, are you a huge Star-gate fan. Just wondering because you picture looks like something from that series.


Nah I think I watched like 3 episodes, and none of them all the way through. Read the book and seen the movie back when they came out, but I don't even really remember much of what the story was about.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by crzayfool
The biggest problem I have with reincarnation is,

There are more creatures, races, species, plants and bacteria than ever before...


If there were 10 Original people on Earth and two of them reproduced... What had to die to give life to the new born?

or

If there were 10 Original people on Earth and two of them reproduced... How did they get twins if only one other soul died?

or

If there were 10 Original people on Earth and one of them died and everyone else hated each-other, so did not reproduce, where is the soul whilst it's waiting to be reincarnated?

(I know that reincarnation doesn't only apply to humans and anything/one could come back as something entirely different but I fear my list would contain more content than the whole of ATS threads put together if I tried to include everything. These are mere examples of how reincarnation is not possible).


Surely we'll get to a point where every bit of energy on Earth is in use by one form of life or another... It would then be like a packed pub on a Friday night... 1 out 1 in?

Who makes souls? Does God still work today? When a new child is born are they always a reincarnated soul? Who are the Originals?

~ CrzayFool
edit on 10-3-2013 by crzayfool because: Expansion


I see it as spirits arrive constantly from off-world to incarnate here. So as a population gets bigger, there are more 'slots' available so to speak.


As to where the souls / spirits come from? Well that's likely to be from elsewhere in the galaxy / universe or even from this very solar system....



posted on Mar, 18 2013 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha
So, reincarnation—the idea that you’ve lived multiple lifetimes before this one and will continue to do so afterward. Some believe, and some don’t. But why? What are the reasons to believe or disbelieve?

First off, you obviously need to have a belief in some sort of afterlife or continuation after the demise of the body. If you have this belief, then it could go a couple different ways. You could go to a final destination forevermore: Heaven, Hell, Hades, Valhalla etc. Even in the Hindu faith, there are various Lokas (worlds) that one can ascend to after physical death. Indeed, there does seem to be some final destination according to Hinduism as well. The reincarnation cycle does seem to have an end, but the concept of reincarnation suggests that we have a long road to travel before reaching the end.

Since reincarnation describes a cycle, I started looking towards other cycles of birth, life, death, and rebirth to help set a precedent. Well, that one’s easy, right? We essentially see it every year as we watch the transformation of the seasons. Even the stars themselves undergo a complex cycle of transformation.




Okay, so there are repeating cycles in nature. I’ll take that one for granted since I need not look too far for an example of it. I, as a mere human being, was born, am currently alive, and will die. Will I have a rebirth or recycling process as the tree and star example? That’s the 64,000 dollar question!

I thought long and hard about this, trying to find real world examples that might provide some insight. This is what the ancient sages did—they looked to nature to teach the lessons. What did they come up with that convinced them? I don’t know, but I started to notice that the micro-world often mimics the macro-world and vice-versa. I started noticing the fundamental resemblances in which nature would repeat the structures of other forms of nature.

We’ve all seen this by now, right?

But are there more examples?
How about the orbiting planets of our solar system: to the orbiting electrons of an atom?

Or the osteon structure of bone: to a cross-section of tree rings?

A network of carbon atoms: to the matrix of a honeycomb?
(note: the first image is an electron microscope image that emphasizes the shape of individual carbon atoms!)

and the double-helix structure of DNA: to the intertwining shape of growing vines?

Okay, granted…I’m reaching a bit to make connections here. In fact, I’ll save you the trouble—these are pretty arbitrary matches. The neuron most certainly doesn’t resemble a solar system model. And that model doesn’t bring to mind DNA. And the double-helix doesn’t resemble a honeycomb etc. Does the micro really resemble the macro? Do nature’s patterns pervade all scales big and small?

Let’s look at some fractals (a form with a repeating pattern):

There, wasn’t that neat? But it still doesn’t help me figure out if I repeat a pattern! Are there any patterns I repeat as a human being that might look like a death/rebirth cycle?


D’oh! Maybe the sleep and wake cycle is a resemblance! I wake each day, I stay awake for a while, I fall asleep, and I wake up again to a new day! Sure, why not! Let’s go with this metaphor! Reincarnation is supposedly a cycle wherein we experience a lifetime, die, and then experience a new lifetime with a change to the previous form.

But, I’m sure you’re thinking and ready to hit the reply-to button to post “But we have no memory of previous lifetimes.”

But is this a fair argument? Can you remember what you had for dinner 2 weeks ago? What color shoes did your first girlfriend wear? How many words did you get wrong on a 3rd grade spelling test? There are plenty of events of my own lifetime that I can’t remember. In fact, I think it’s fair to say that only the most dramatic, concrete details are retained—and even then—only in some crystalized form that soon slips into an imagination of skewed accuracy. If I can hardly even remember the trite details of my life now, it doesn’t surprise me that I can’t remember the trite details of previous lives. I had an infancy, but I definitely cannot remember it. I can't remember much of my early childhood either, but I had one.

But there still does seem to be some inborn memories, instincts, and emotional triggers. Why am I afraid of drowning, but not of being shot with a gun? Why am I terrified of spiders, but not snakes? Why do I get an eerie feeling meeting that stranger, but instantly fall in love with this strange person? Again, I’m sure you’re ready to say, “But our experiences since birth shape our perceptions and influence our attitudes towards our surroundings.” Indeed, but there do seem to be many intuitive feelings that can’t be traced to my memory or experiences. Could these intuitive feelings be some spillover accumulated from previous lifetimes?

We live each day assuming that it is a part, only a subunit, of one complete lifetime—that it is a graduation from gestation to infancy to childhood to adolescence to adulthood to old age to decomposition. This complete cycle must surely be not at all the same as a cycle of reincarnated forms, right? Or is it?

I learn things in childhood that carry over into my adolescence. I gain experience in adolescence that I bring into my adulthood. And I utilize my knowledge of adulthood to demonstrate mastery into my old age. In my old age I can hardly even remember my childhood—it is but a fleeting, vague impression; an intuitive feeling of what was.

Have you ever thought back to when you were younger and said, “Wow, I don’t even know who that person was! I’m glad I’m not the same as I was before!” With hindsight, do you find it difficult to believe that you could have ever done some of the dumb things you used to do? I sure do.

Each daily experience is stacked right on top of the other and builds a monument of memories over a lifetime. Each time I go to sleep and wake up is like having a new life with the accumulated knowledge and experience of all my previous days being alive.

I am reincarnated every new day. Each day I have an opportunity to live a new life. I am the same, yet I am slightly modified and different. These slight modifications add up over time to make significant transformations. I can choose to be a different person every day, gradually approaching the ideal image I have for myself—or I can regress and be a jerk, a lowlife, a criminal, and a heathen. If I wake up every day, I can fall into a repeated pattern of daily behavior. If I am reincarnated repeatedly, I can fall into a pattern of incarnated behavior.

Are we not constantly modifying ourselves based on a reservoir of previous experience and memory?—to the point that we can’t even recognize the old when held up against the new?

What if each new day was a mini-reincarnation? If I live to be 75 years old, I will have lived 27,375 mini-lifetimes—each subsequent one containing the accumulation of many, many mini-lifetimes of memory and experience.

Edgar Allen Poe wrote, “Sleep, those little slices of death; Oh how I loathe them."

Are our many sleep and wake cycles simply the "little deaths" in an even bigger reincarnation cycle? Are we looking at wheels within wheels here?

I really am not trying to teach anything in this thread, but I am trying to learn.

However—If we only get one lifetime, then perhaps we should treat each sleep as a “little death” and place the importance of a lifetime on every single day. Give it your best shot no matter what you believe! Each day is up to you—the shape of your life is molded by your own hands.
edit on 10-3-2013 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2013 @ 06:53 PM
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Reality the universe and everything is a do over. There is a god of creation and a god of life. Creation creates things, but not life and the life creator needs a thing to instill life. A disaster occurred in the future, our future, and the universe was destroyed. To fix the distroyed universe the god of creation and the god of life found the most effective way was to just start the process over from the beginning. As conscious entities our sub-conscious knows our reality is a do over, but cannot directly tell us what is happening. We get insights such as deja vu, precognition, clairvoyance, telepathy. Which we think is special new knowledge, but it is just information from what has already happened in the future. Once the universe catches up to where it was destroyed the fix will be implemented to avoid the glich and at that point our sub-conscious will merge with our mind and we will begin to live authentic lives. Johnathan Swift wrote an essay about how to repair a tree that had been cut down. He went into meticulous detail regarding propping and pasting every particle together with the end result being a mess and that the tree is a goner if cut down. The only way to recreate the tree is to grow it from seed to majestic crown and still the woodsmans's axe.



posted on Mar, 18 2013 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 





Okay, so there are repeating cycles in nature. I’ll take that one for granted since I need not look too far for an example of it. I, as a mere human being, was born, am currently alive, and will die. Will I have a rebirth or recycling process as the tree and star example? That’s the 64,000 dollar question!


I don't see any correlation between changing seasons, trees, stars and reincarnation? When new seasons come they are totally different from the previous year. Trees drop their seeds to sprout totally new trees, not the same tree. Stars explode and all the matter comes back together as something else entirely; this isn't reincarnation, it's all things conforming to the laws of the universe. It's not reincarnation if we take dust and add water to make mud, then harden it to make a rock.

Can we at least agree that if reincarnation could happen, the process would be the creation of a body (a vehicle) to carry the exact same spirit or consciousness from one existence into the next?

The closest we can come to comparing natural events to reincarnation is when we die and the liquid in our bodies evaporate, then rain down to where flowers and other vegetation drink it in and make us a part of them. The nutrients in our bodies get absorbed into the soil, again, for the vegetation to absorb us, and finally the bugs eat what's left and we become a part of them. But, at no time can it be said that our essence carries on in this process.



edit on 3/18/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)





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