Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

Originally posted by mideast
France : a country with nuclear bomes ,

And never had to use them ...

Gays live freely ,

Good! Thank god they aren't put to death like in Muslim countries ...

Muslims are fined and deprived from education...

Sounds like a muslim country ... where little girls are shot in the head by misogynistic men for wanting to learn to read.

Originally posted by mideast
Muslims don't say that they should stop some one who is telling the truth , they want themselves to stay out of being insulted.

Muslims are insulted with the TRUTH is told about Muhammad.
Muhammad was a murderer and a thief. That's the truth.
They think it's an insult .. when in fact it's just telling the truth.
So yes .. Islam doesn't allows someone to tell the truth.

Islam allows the people who are oppressed to raise their voice ,

Wrong. Tell that to the myriads of oppressed women who are stuck without educations .. without being able to drive a car .. who can't leave the home without their babysitting male relatives ... who are beaten and told that it's for their own good and that the Imam told the husbands how to do it ... etc etc

but it forbids insulting because it is nothing but irrational and unreasonable way of communication.

That's subjective. What is 'insulting' to you is just truth to most others.
And it's also not allowing freedom of speech. It's just hiding from truth.

Originally posted by beezzer
Don't insult the Pope.

Don't question the Pope's teachings.

That would be apostacy. And you will be punished.

(see how that sounds?)

The truth is, Christians used to be an intolerant bunch as well. The problem is, the majority of American and British Muslims still are.

This seems to be the predominant subject this week (and perhaps this year?)

Individualism vs. Collectivism


I was involved in another thread where this is being discussed, (coming from a slightly different angle, but ending up in the same place).

There is individual integrity, in which a person is "whole" because they walk their talk; they are honest about their values and ethics, and they manifest them in act.... sometimes even contrary to the ethics, morals and preferences of those in their environment.

This is an oppressive force to cultural integrity though- in which groups of peoples (a society, a nation, or group of nations- have a shared set of ethics and morals that all members strive to follow in all act and behavior- even if contrary to their personal sense of moral and ethic, thought and feeling as an individual.

As our world has become more connected, our markets expanded and merged, information and communicaion exploded to encompass the globe, I think it is probably natural and expected that we are faced with this dillema-

do we choose individualism, individual integrity and freedom, a person being "true to oneself"?
or do we choose collectivism, cultural integrity, and solidarity; being true to the concern for all more than self?

Choose freedom, you have to accept conflict and war outside being common,
Choose solidarity, you have to accept internal conflict inside being common.

I continue to think and feel that a middle point of balance between the two would be ideal- personal integrity and freedom, within certain limits- which is what this article attempts to express. I don't feel I NEED to insult anyone, I don't feel I am losing a right I especially hold dear there.

But the problem remains that cultures differ, and what is an insult to one is not to another, and vice versa, so the limits we could agree upon globally would be hard to discern! In my own country, most people take it as insulting if you say to them that you disagree with them (no matter how politely you do so, it is considered "mean" or cruel).
In some cultures it is an insult to pretend you agree when you don't- it means you think they are stupid, weak, or irrational.

So that is why I think a lot of religions and other sorts of ideologies will be putting in their proposals to become the new World ethic and moral system.

When Rome linked such a huge part of the world together, communication and exchange suddenly became enhanced, there was a similar period- where religions battled to win minds and hearts, and potential messiahs and spiritual leaders preached on every corner. Jesus and Mohammad won that round.

I wonder what will be the outcome this time?

reply to post by mideast


come on mideast, you know his script by now. he hates muslims and islam, it's simple.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

I don't want to knock your source but do you see the things that are said in the index about Mohammed? I find it pretty hard to believe that this isn't the work of some fundamentalist Christians or something because no Muslim would speak about let alone allow those things on that page.

Did you check the links?

They are quotes from the Hadith and Koran.

I didn't know that Muhammad was a cross dresser. Everyone to their own. Its a harmless enough diversion.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Muhammad the Cross-Dresser

In all seriousness, off of the top of my head I can reference Muhammad being anti-semite, a homophobe, a plunderer, a mass murderer, a pedophile, a slaver, a ploygamist, a warmonger and a wifebeater, so perhaps the site isn't off the mark at all. Especially not as it references Hadith.

I prefer to stick to only the Canonical Hadith and the Koran then people can't quibble.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by beezzer
Don't insult the Pope.

Don't question the Pope's teachings.

That would be apostacy. And you will be punished.

(see how that sounds?)

The truth is, Christians used to be an intolerant bunch as well. The problem is, the majority of American and British Muslims still are.

Quite true. T'is why I worded it that way.

Originally posted by mideast
Then no one would waste his time on some one who is that ignorant and arrogant.

Ignorant and arrogant .... People running around holding signs saying 'behead those who insult Islam' ... that's pretty ignorant and arrogant. They should learn that freedom of speech is every human beings right .. they should learn that the truth may sting but it needs to be said and that people shouldnt' be beheaded for simply stating the truth.

Maybe I should get some signs together that say "behead those who insult common sense" or "behead those who disagree with me". It would be just as ignorant as those muslims who want to stifle free speech simply because they dont like that the truth was being said about their religious founder ... wouldn't it?

Originally posted by skalla

come on mideast, you know his script by now. he hates muslims and islam, it's simple.

What a weak ad hominium attack.

I don't hate Muslims. I'm not a big fan of their desire to prevent any criticism of Islam by force of law though. The 1 in 8 American Muslims polled who think I should be executed for criticizing Islam are particularly worrying.

Link
Link

Still, you keep fighting the good fight by defending them.

It is true that 1 in 8 American Muslims wanting to kill me for criticism of Islam is not a majority. On the other hand, the 58% of American Muslims polled who wish to prohibit criticism of Islam under the constitution are.

Originally posted by mideast

For example in France , there is fining bill for the women who cover their hair and their bodies.
You are the most hypocrites.

France : a country with nuclear bomes , Gays live freely , Muslims are fined and deprived from education.

Why try to pull such nonsense??? Did you assume there'd be no one around who knows the truth to see it and call you on that???

In France, women can be fined for covering their face in certain public areas!

It was already a law, for all people, for identification reasons. So that in case of a crime being committed, ones face can be seen by observers or security cameras. You go into a gas station or shop with a motorcycle helmet on- you get fined. You do that with a ski mask on, you get fined. That has been true for a very long time!

It was just noted onto the laws that that INCLUDES the veil covering the face too.
Why should Muslims get special exemptions from laws french people must obey?

Muslims are nto fined and denied education, there is not even a shred or ounce of truth to connect that with- it is total nonsense from one end to the other.

Originally posted by skalla
he hates muslims and islam, it's simple.

So stating the truth .. that Islam is intolerant of free speech and truth .. that makes the OP a 'hater', eh? More likely it makes those muslims who go around with signs saying 'behead those who insult islam' the real haters.

Truth isn't hate. It's just truth.

Islam isn't tolerant. It believes it's right and everyone else is wrong. That is like most religions, however, most religions dont' go around saying that those who tell the truth about them should have their heads chopped off. Speaking the truth about the ills of Islam will get you put in jail for a very long time .. or tortured .. or put to death in 'Islamic' countries.

That mistreatment of people is worthy of being hated.

If you tell the truth about the Catholic Church while you are in Vatican city ... that the 'Princes' of the Catholic Church protected pedophiles ... you won't get your head chopped off and no one is going to throw you in prison for insulting Catholicism.

The same can't be said about Islamic countries.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Do you want to hear some truths about Islam? Because I can give you a few and you wont like them one bit... They actually put the focus back on our countries and show us how pathetic and stupid we really are..

reply to post by ollncasino


it's not an ad hominem when countless posts and threads by you speak otherwise, it's plain as day.

using wnd as a source is the real weakness here - it is not a home to journalism, just editorial gumph that can be picked apart with ease - i deconstructed this interview with Walid Shoebat and Bob Unruh's use of the wenzel poll (from your link) in a previous thread that you did your best to derail via bland, generalised and stereotypical attacks on muslims some months back, i see they are recycling the same rubbish again..... at least i dont think you have used "religionofpeace" yet.

you are seriously worried by the 1 in 8 figure and why would you even believe what you read on WND when it is so clearly right wing christian propaganda? how do you propose that these supposed 1 in 8 would achieve their aims, and therefor realise these fears that seem to proccupy you, be realistic please.

reply to post by skalla


78% of UK Muslims oppose free speech



A vast majority of Muslims support punishing those who exercise their free speech in a way that "offends" Muslims.

The reason Muslims are so quick to be offended is because they know their religion will crumble if it is exposed to serious criticism.

reply to post by ollncasino


should i take that as an unwillingness or inability to address the questions/points i raised?

i have had contact with muslims my entire life, yet i do not feel the same fear as you. i do not feel that this is due to my ignorance of "what is going on" as such. i went to school with muslims, lived next door to them, worked with them, bought groceries at shops run by them, been to the pub with them and so forth.

besides WND and religionofpeace etc, what is your real life experience of muslims and how does that colour your views that lead to your feelings (and yes, i do see you as blindly prejudiced, however i am seeking to understand). more questions i know, however i am interested.

Originally posted by mideast
What is your problem exactly ?

You want to insult ?

Or

You want to get insulted ?



Or

You support the people who insult ?

We want to recognise that people expressing their opinion is fine whether we find it unpleasant or not.

We need to be free to express whatever opinions we hold in all cases at all times. The choice to be insulted or not is on the listener. They have an obligation to behave whether offended or not.

We support people who express an opinion, have a right to do so, even if we disagree with the opinion expressed.

The above does not cover telling lies about a person or organisation. That is libel and there is legal redress for that.

Religious belief should get no special consideration in the above. If some people are excessively sensitive that is their problem.

Originally posted by skalla

i have had contact with muslims my entire life, yet i do not feel the same fear as you.

I do not fear Muslims. If I did then the 1 in 8 American and British Muslims who wish me killed for criticising Islam (Link, a further 9% are not sure) would have frightened me into silence a long time ago.

Originally posted by skalla
what is your real life experience of muslims and how does that colour your views that lead to your feelings (and yes, i do see you as blindly prejudiced, however i am seeking to understand). more questions i know, however i am interested.

I know and have know many, many Muslims on a personal level. I have found many of them, on an individual basis to be fine people. Especially the ones who don't take their religion too seriously.

On a group level however they tend to oppose things that I hold dear, such as freedom of speech.

I like freedom of speech. How about you?

Originally posted by ollncasino
I do not fear Muslims. ..

If you were a muslim woman living in Pakistan you might feel differently.
ATS Thread - 714 Honor Killings in Pakistan Province in 2012

I want to see an islamist defend a Christian (or any person) who is criticizing Islam.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
They actually put the focus back on our countries and show us how pathetic and stupid we really are..

As opposed to how brilliantly so called 'Islamic' countries behave, right?

Men and Women Systematically Raped in Chairo's Tahrir Square
Suicide Bomber in Afghanistan Kills 8 Children
Buddhist and Hindu Civilians Terrorized by Muslim Mobs
100 Christian Homes Burned by Muslims over Blasphemy Charges
Christian Church in West Java Threatened By Muslim Mobs
Pakistan - 714 Killed Because of Sex

Islam doesn't make utopias. No hard line religion ever does.
Fundamentalist followers of (any) religions really screw up the lives of those around them.

Originally posted by skalla

it's not an ad hominem when countless posts and threads by you speak otherwise, it's plain as day.

Everything I post is backed up by surveys and the like, newspaper reports and references from the Koran and Hadith. I post facts.

You post opinion pieces. Oh, and ad hominium attacks.

Originally posted by skalla
using wnd as a source is the real weakness here

You think so?

The poll of 600 American Muslims which revealed 46% wanted criticism of Islam to be a criminal offense (17% are not sure) Link and that 58% wanted criticism of Islam to be prohibited under the constitution was carried out by Wenzel Strategies, a reputable public opinion research and media/communications consulting company based in Columbus, Ohio.

Your ad hominium attack is misplaced.