Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

reply to post by mideast


I am not a practicing Muslim and I don't know much about the life and times of prophet Mohammed but I do know he has given me a warning about Western Politics and its objectives. I thank him for that at the very least and I hope one day people understand that its not about Muslim vs Christian etc, Its Religion vs Government and the more these idiots get behind their Satanic governments, the less hope they can expect for their immediate future.

Originally posted by mideast

You define Muhammad (PBUH) as opportunist.

I define Muhammad as a great military leader who fought 8 major battles and led 18 raids HistoryNet. On a less positive note, he did enslave women and children and execute POWs.

Sirat Rasul Allah - "Life of God's Messenger" (768) AD

Originally posted by DarknStormy

I am not a practicing Muslim and I don't know much about the life and times of prophet Mohammed but I do know he has given me a warning about Western Politics and its objectives. I thank him for that at the very least and I hope one day people understand that its not about Muslim vs Christian etc, Its Religion vs Government and the more these idiots get behind their Satanic governments, the less hope they can expect for their immediate future.

So we should get behind religion rather than getting behind our satanic governments?

So much evil has been carried out in the name of religion that I suspect you may be looking for Satan in the wrong place.

reply to post by ollncasino


We don't even have free speech here in Australia... Its an American thing and nothing more.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by mideast

 

I thank him for that at the very least and I hope one day people understand that its not about Muslim vs Christian etc, Its Religion vs Government and the more these idiots get behind their Satanic governments, the less hope they can expect for their immediate future.

It was the Religion vs Government from the moment Muhammad (PBUH) gathered his relatives to invite them to Islam.

It was when Jesus asked Jew leaders to abide and follow him

it was the same thing when Moses asked Pharaoh to give up Israelite and accept the god as his creator.

People are the same old people , the difference is that those people used to drive camel and horses , these people drive cars.

The ignorant is till that deep.

And good for you that Muhammad (PBUH) has helped you understand something.

God bless you and always guide you. We all need his help always.

peace.

reply to post by ollncasino


Once more you said he was an opportunist.

What is a blame on an opportunists ?

Although he finds ignorance of other people and introduce himself as king.

To some Muslims he is king like other kings , let you think that way ,too.

Originally posted by ollncasino
So we should get behind religion rather than getting behind our satanic governments?

So much evil has been carried out in the name of religion that I suspect you may be looking in the wrong place for Satan.

Evil is carried out by Satanists who come in the name of religion. This includes Muslims also. Don't blame religion for the words of a few corrupt men.. The bible didn't drop a bomb on Iraq or down the trade centres, people did.

Originally posted by mideast

Although he finds ignorance of other people and introduce himself as king.

To some Muslims he is king like other kings , let you think that way ,too.

Muhammad is not my king. He was merely an illiterate camel herder who married a rich widow and who decided at the age of 40 that he was god's prophet.

If you tried that today, they would lock you up for your own safety.

Back to the topic in the OP, Muslim states have been pushing for a number of years to make criticism of Islam illegal through the UN.

The United Nations General Assembly adopted - for the fourth straight year - a resolution prepared by the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference calling upon all UN nations to adopt legislation banning the "defamation" of religion.

NY Daily News

Muslim states aren't much into freedom of speech.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Evil is carried out by Satanists who come in the name of religion. This includes Muslims also.

You speak of evil. Allah gave Muhammad's soldiers permission to rape captured women.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

Koran 4:24

The meaning of this verse is revealed in the Hadith

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army. The rest of the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your right hands possessout of them are lawful for you; and he did not mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end". This hadith has been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words are: They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom you right hands posses"

Hadith Muslim 8:3433

In other words, while Muhammad's soldiers were naturally learly of raping captured women in front of their POW husbands, Allah said it was ok.

As I said, perhaps you are looking for evil in the wrong place.

reply to post by ollncasino


I'm sure there are parts which say those things but its no different to the Old Testament. You point those things out but what you forget to point out are the good things in the Koran, the parts which predict the very time we are in now and why we should wake up to ourselves and realise the enemy isn't Islam.

The Koran also speaks about Jesus, that must make Jesus evil also? You can sum up Islam any way you want but when it comes down to it, you aren't just degrading Islam, you are insulting the Christian prophet also.

reply to post by ollncasino


Look, I'll try to put this ina way that we could possibly both agree on. Christianity is corrupt, Islam has also faced its own corruption. All the leaders who are oppressin their people, not allowing free speech etc are not the true representatives of Islam, the practicing people are, yes?

Now lets move over to the west where we have a similar scenario. We have honest Christians trying to practice their faith the best they can but must live under a political structure which tempts them to turn away from their religon. The problem is Government and we need to break through this veil that keeps us common people divided whether we are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, what ever the teaching is.

When we can band together and share our ideas amongst ourselves and realise that we are not the problem but the elite are, then we will start makin progress in everything. While the current leaders are in power remembering they are he ones who orchestrate most of the conflicts, we are going to keep living this way. Eventually they will take religion away and when they do and reveal themselves as the true evil of this world, what are we going to have left then? Nothing except a world full of oppressors and dictators. Its Religion vs Government and we need to work with Muslims and Jews, not against them.

Things may seem great in our countries right now but our leaders are slaughtering people everywhere. They are Satanists.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
I'm sure there are parts which say those things but its no different to the Old Testament.

I'm not a Christian. You won't find me defending the violence and intolerance in the Old Testament.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
The Koran also speaks about Jesus, that must make Jesus evil also? You can sum up Islam any way you want but when it comes down to it, you aren't just degrading Islam, you are insulting the Christian prophet also.

I am degrading Islam by repeating what is in the Koran and canonical Hadith?

That is strange logic on your part. Surely even in an Islamic country, where criticism of Islam is a serious offense, I would be allowed to quote from Islam's own holy books?

Allah, through a revaluation through Muhammad, authorized Muhammad's soldiers to rape captive women in front of their POW husbands.

How you then work out that I am degrading Jesus by quoting what is in the Koran and Hadith is a real puzzle. But isn't that an example of the danger of making it illegal to 'insult' Islam?

You are insulted by me quoting your own holy books. Go figure.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Its Religion vs Government and we need to work with Muslims and Jews, not against them.

I don't see the US government working away to remove my freedom of expression. I do however see Islamic states and Muslims pushing to restrict my freedom of expression.

reply to post by ollncasino


Let me break it down for you.

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.

So whats wrong with this part? Is it possible what your right hand possess is your wife or wives?

[This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse.

Unlawful sexual intercourse? Having sex before marriage I guess? Whats wrong with this part?

So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

You have chopped and changed a quote for what? There is no mention of rape in this. As for your 2nd source, you do realise your hadith comes from the book of Marriage?

Originally posted by DarknStormy

You have chopped and changed a quote for what? There is no mention of rape in this.

The phrase 'except those your right hands possess' refers to women taken captive in war.

This hadith explains the meaning of the phrase. Hadith Muslim 8:3433

It is probable that women captives who engage in sexual intercourse with their captives in front of their POW husbands do so unwillingly, hence the reference to rape.

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army.

The rest of the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your right hands possessout of them are lawful for you; and he did not mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end".

This hadith has been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words are:

They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom you right hands posses"

Hadith Muslim 8:3433

Coming back to the topic of the OP, who decides what is insulting and therefore prohibited under Islam's restrictions on free speech?

Originally posted by DarknStormy

You have chopped and changed a quote for what? There is no mention of rape in this. As for your 2nd source, you do realise your hadith comes from the book of Marriage?

You do realize that the second source clearly talks about Muhammad's army taking women captive (those your right hand possess) but being afraid to have sex with them? Like 99% of the Hadith, it explains what the Koran is on about.

Hence the Koran 4:24 is stating that it is ok to have sex with female captives.

I'm Episcopal. Since that is the one true religion (along with Catholocism) everyone will worship the Pope.

You, of course, have the choice not to. But your choice will include punishment.

Don't insult the Pope.

Don't question the Pope's teachings.

That would be apostacy. And you will be punished.

(see how that sounds?)

reply to post by ollncasino


To be honest with you, I cannot understand whether they are talking about the army or whether someone else has taken those women captive. They is the key word. They didn't say we took them captive, you see what I mean?

The hadith comes from the "Book of Marriage" and I would like to hear a Muslims interpretation of it because it is interesting and I do respect what your pointing out also.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
To be honest with you, I cannot understand whether they are talking about the army or whether someone else has taken those women captive. They is the key word. They didn't say we took them captive, you see what I mean?

The hadith comes from the "Book of Marriage" and I would like to hear a Muslims interpretation of it because it is interesting and I do respect what your pointing out also

Here is a page here that appears to know a lot about it.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Rape

It cites a number of classical Islamic scholars who made it clear that the expression 'what your right hand possess' means female captives taken in war, which links back to the Koran. Basically, the Koran (Koran 4:24) states that you can't have sex with married women except the one's you took captive in war.

The Hadith just provides the background story of what the verse is referring to.

reply to post by ollncasino


I don't want to knock your source but do you see the things that are said in the index about Mohammed? I find it pretty hard to believe that this isn't the work of some fundamentalist Christians or something because no Muslim would speak about let alone allow those things on that page.

From your source

Mohammed the:Anti-Semite • Bewitched • Briber
Child Abuser • Child Killer • Cross-Dresser
Deceiver • Delusional • Dispraised • Drinker
God • Hate Preacher • Homophobe
Husband of Mary • Hypocrite • Liar
Megalomaniac • Mass Murderer • Obese
Pedophile • Plunderer • Polygamist • Privileged
Racist • Rapist • Slaver • Suicidal • Terrorist
Torturer • Unclean • Ungrateful • Warmonger
White Man • Wealthy • Wife Beater

Come on really?