Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Muslim apologists is a phrase I hear pretty often - it comes with it's own meaning I guess

Apologist is a term used for someone defending a religious position in general.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Muslim apologists is a phrase I hear pretty often - it comes with it's own meaning I guess

Apologist is a term used for someone defending a religious position in general.
en.wikipedia.org...

Not only a religious position - and not in general:
Apologist

Definition of apologist
noun

a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial:
an enthusiastic apologist for fascism in the 1920s

Sounds a bit more derogatory in this definition

Well, maybe I am reading the thread wrong, but what I mostly see from the "muslim apologists" is that instead of debunking the original post, there are excuses why people dont really need free speech for this and that and pointing fingers at some free speech restrictions in the west. Way to confirm the stereotype, IMHO..

emphasis mine - I wonder how you meant it - in quotes and all

:-)

reply to post by YouSir


Forgive me - I didn't notice this until today - and I'm afraid I don't have the time to get into this as much as I'd like -

Ummm.....I know that you addressed this to the OP, but I find this a very interesting topic that you bring up....

It is interesting - it's one of my favorite topics - freedom of speech

Ultimately these are always individual decision cruxes and never relegated to the collective unless surrendered by the individual. Again...NO...no power to language, only to choice......All armies march on individual feet that have merely surrendered will to participate in collective programming subordinate to language command...again...through the individual decision to participate...or not.

So, you believe no harm comes from language?

We can come at this from several different angles - pro and con. If there is no power in language - then the OP has nothing to fear. What the Muslims say - what they want - what they demand - none of it matters

If language has power - then it can also harm:
FBI: Anti-Muslim hate crimes still up

Hate crimes against perceived Muslims, which jumped up 50% in 2010 largely as a result of anti-Muslim propagandizing, remained at relatively high levels last year, according to 2011 hate crime statistics released today by the FBI.

Hate Crimes Against Muslims Remain Near Decade High

The bureau reported that there were 157 reported anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2011, down slightly from the 160 recorded in 2010. The 2011 crimes occurred during a period when Islam-bashing propaganda, which initially took off in 2010, continued apace.

Rhetoric from conservatives aimed at inspiring fear about Muslims in the U.S. and sharia law accompanied last year’s high numbers, which a shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin by a white supremacist. Sikhs follow a separate faith from Muslims, but the two are often conflated and hate crimes against both groups have risen in tandem in the past.

If it has no power, then what is the point of this?
Anti-Islam ads return to 10 Muni buses

There's so much to this - and you shouldn't worry about it being off topic. The topic is freedom of speech - more or less - and whether or not the Muslims have a right to ask that we not insult their prophet

I say they have the right to ask

Do you think there is such a thing as hate speech YouSir? Should it be protected?

Either way - what does it look like?

:-)

reply to post by ollncasino

What sort of person states that pointing out that most Muslims in the UK and USA are opposed to free speech is the same as Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric?

That would be me ollncasino - I would be that sort of person - absolutely

What? I though we were done with the whole PC thing ollncasino - you hate it so much. Now we're just calling a spade a spade. Freedom of speech - and all that :-)

From the big guy himself:
Mein Kampf contains the blueprint of later Nazi propaganda efforts. Assessing his audience, Hitler writes in chapter VI:

"Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (...) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (...) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (...) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood."[5]

As to the methods to be employed, he explains:

Like I said before - interesting thread

Originally posted by Ollncasino

What sort of person states that pointing out that most Muslims in the UK and USA are opposed to free speech is the same as Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric?

I mean really?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

That would be me ollncasino - I would be that sort of person - absolutely

reply to post by ollncasino

Boy howdy! It's the ALL CAPS TRUTH! :-)

“It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Truth? I'm not buying what you're peddling - no matter what you choose to call it

“Being in a minority, even in a minority of one, did not make you mad. There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad.”
― George Orwell, 1984

www.goodreads.com...
Truth - it's interesting to think about - isn't it? You should start a thread about TRUTH ollncasino - what a mind-mess that would be

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Boy howdy! It's the ALL CAPS TRUTH! :-)

Truth? I'm not buying what you're peddling - no matter what you choose to call it

Truth - it's interesting to think about - isn't it? You should start a thread about TRUTH ollncasino - what a mind-mess that would be

Non of the so called book religions can be judged to be tolerant of freedom of speech because it relates to freedom of being. All of the book religions preach the ONE RIGHT WAY. Left to me I would censure all of them. We can look at the biggest churches and see their extreme intolerance.

I dislike these fundamentalist buffoons of which only some are moslem.

reply to post by ollncasino


Finally!

Something we can both agree on

Wait - that means free speech for Muslims too - right?

Even when you disagree with them?

:-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Wait - that means free speech for Muslims too - right?

Even when you disagree with them?

:-)

Muslims are allowed to use their freedom of speech to call for restrictions on the freedom of speech they feel insults Islam.

You are allowed to use your free speech to call people Nazis for opposing Muslims restricting free speech.

Spiramirabilis

I am allowed to use my freedom of speech to report that most American and British Muslims polled want to prevent any criticism of Islam by force of law, while 1 in 8 want to kill anyone who criticizes Islam.

• 68% of British Muslims polled believe that people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.

• 58% of US Muslims polled said criticism of their religion or of Muhammad should not be allowed under the Constitution.

• 1 in 8 American Muslims polled believe that Muhammad's critics should face the death penalty.

• 1 in 8 British Muslims polled support demonstrators who call for the death of those who insult Islam

reply to post by ollncasino

Let me ask you something - does it bother you that I compare your approach to that of the Nazis?

I'm guessing you'll say no - but you keep bringing it up :-)

You should think about that maybe. We are groups - and we are individuals. Those lines do get blurred

We can't change minds with a battering ram - but we can change them with words. This is something you and I both know

Where are the moderate Muslims? Right under your nose, making the case for freedom of expression.

What is it you're really afraid of?

No worries ollncasino - I'll let you get back to your work...

Have a pleasant Sunday

:-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Let me ask you something - does it bother you that I compare your approach to that of the Nazis?

I'm guessing you'll say no - but you keep bringing it up :-)

You should think about that maybe.

I bring it up because it proves that you are an extremist and a bigot.

You should think about that.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Where are the moderate Muslims? Right under your nose, making the case for freedom of expression

It is just unfortunate that Muslims who support free speech are minority in the USA, the UK and also in the Muslim world as a whole.

Criticism of Islam is a criminal offense throughout the Islamic world with penalties ranging from imprisonment to the death penalty.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

What is it you're really afraid of?

I am afraid that Muslim efforts to restrict free speech will be successful.

reply to post by ollncasino

I bring it up because it proves that you are an extremist and a bigot.

Absolutely. It's a funny thing - I think we are all bigots in one way or another ollncasino

I'll cop to my bigotry. I'm intolerant of intolerance

I am extreme in my views when I compare certain tactics being used against the Muslims to those used by the Nazis against the Jews

It's politically incorrect. It's over the top - obviously. It doesn't make me popular. Worst of all - it makes me such an awful bore

The anti-Muslim rhetoric hurts individuals and the group. It helps nothing - it solves nothing. It's malicious

I meant what I said - I can live with all of it

I won't shut up about it

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I'll cop to my bigotry. I'm intolerant of intolerance

You are just intolerant.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I won't shut up about it

Fanatics rarely do.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I'll cop to my bigotry. I'm intolerant of intolerance

You are just intolerant.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I won't shut up about it

Fanatics rarely do.

I know you are - but what am I? Best you can do then? :-)

We should compare posting history sometime - just for laughs

Are you honestly worried about the future of free speech? Then defend free speech ollncasino

It has been done before - and without repeatedly attacking any one group of individuals - there is no need

P.S. I can do this forever you know :-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I'll cop to my bigotry. I'm intolerant of intolerance

Yet you appear not to object to what this chap does



or what these gentlemen do



Why does your "intolerance of intolerance" not extend to people running around demanding the beheading of people who insult Islam?

Why?

It wouldn't matter but 1 in 8 British and American Muslims actually support those clowns (as you tacitly do yourself) while a majority wish to make criticism of Islam against the law.

There is nothing wrong talking about what religious groups think about freedom of speech.

For instance, what do Irish Muslims think of freedom of speech and Sharia law?

Poll of Irish Muslims

• 59% of Irish Muslims disagree that "people in Ireland should be free to say whatever they want, even if it offends other people's religious beliefs". 35% agree.
• 57% of young Irish Muslims (under 26) believe Ireland should become an Islamic State.
• 37% of Irish Muslims would like Ireland to be governed as an Islamic state. 50% said they would not.

Irish Independent
Link

Where does this poll come from?

Shaheed Satardien, a dissident Imam who blew the whistle on those seeking to aggressively spread a version of Islam in Ireland that brooks no accommodation with Western values.

He has since been ostracised and demonised by the Muslim establishment. They have questioned his credentials to preach and claim he speaks for no one.

Shaheed refuses to be silenced.

Irish Independent

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Are you honestly worried about the future of free speech? Then defend free speech ollncasino

It has been done before - and without repeatedly attacking any one group of individuals - there is no need

I take it you wish that Iman Shaheed Satardien, stops "attacking any one group of individuals"?

Is Iman Shaheed a Nazi for speaking out against radical Islam?

Your position is intellectually dishonest and moreover naive.

Useful idiot

In political jargon, useful idiot is a pejorative term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they do not understand, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.

The term has been used to refer to Soviet sympathizers in Western countries. The implication was that, although the people in question naïvely thought of themselves as an ally of the Soviet Union, they were actually held in contempt and were being cynically used

Useful Idiot

reply to post by ollncasino

Not quite through with that post? :-)

Why does your "intolerance of intolerance" not extend to people running around demanding the beheading of people who insult Islam?

Where have I said I find their statements or demands acceptable?

You wish :-)

I support their right to spout - same as I support your spouting. After a while the whole thing starts to look a bit like a parakeet pecking at itself in a mirror - but, I still support the absurdity that can come with our freedom to express ourselves - no matter how vile

You have no faith in our system ollncasino

It wouldn't matter but 1 in 8 British and American Muslims actually support those clowns (as you tacitly do yourself) while a majority wish to make criticism of Islam against the law.

You think I support them - because I oppose you? :-) It is so easy to say - right?

Meantime - you tacitly (or overtly) endorse whatever happens to innocent people as a result of your personal contribution to the constant negative attention aimed at all Muslims everywhere. So long as all you're doing is alerting people to the 'real' danger - your hands are clean - right?

Anyhow - here's a couple things to get your dander up this morning :-)

O Canada - I think I love you...

Reasonable people would differ over whether some of those debates crossed the line from being hurtful, offensive and even repugnant to being hateful. But the court’s ruling, written by Mr. Justice Marshall Rothstein, helps us decide:

“Hate is an effort to marginalize individuals based on their membership in a group. Using expression that exposes the group to hatred, hate speech seeks to delegitimize group members in the eyes of the majority, reducing their social standing and acceptance within society. Hate speech, therefore, rises beyond causing distress to individual group members. It can have a societal impact.”

Hateful expression “portrays the targeted group as a menace that threatens the safety and well-being of others.”

Free Speech is going to be in and out of the courts - forever. There's your safety net - there's your guarantee

Then, just for fun: San Francisco Strikes Back Against Anti-Muslim Ads

reply to post by ollncasino

Your position is intellectually dishonest and moreover naive.

Have a nice day Mr. Casino

:-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I support their right to spout - same as I support your spouting.

That is where you and I differ. I don't support their right to run around demanding people have their heads chopped off.

Your right to free speech stops when you start spreading hate.

Canadian Supreme Court Ruling

My position is that you lose the right to free speech when speech is "fighting words", words that "tend[s] to incite an immediate breach of the peace" (in line with US law). Are they not clearly doing that when they demand peoples' heads be chopped off?



From your link O Canada - I think I love you...

Canadian Supreme Court:

"Hate speech, therefore, rises beyond causing distress to individual group members. It can have a societal impact.

Hateful expression “portrays the targeted group as a menace that threatens the safety and well-being of others.”

Canadian Supreme Court Ruling

Then these chaps had better pull in their horns then.



Speech doesn't get much more hateful than calling for people to be exterminated for insulting Islam. Yet you support their right to do so...

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I support their right to spout

You haven't thought this through. Your position is logically inconsistent.

Either you support restrictions on free speech when it constitutes hate speech (in line with the Canadian Supreme court ruling you are so pleased with O Canada - I think I love you... ) or you don't. Yet you have clearly stated that you support the right of radical Muslims to run around demanding people get their head chopped off!

Really, you haven't thought this through at all.