Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

Mr Zafar is from the Ahmadiyya sect who are not classed as Muslims to start off with.

And second, there is no point criticizing Saudi and the rest regarding their human rights when US doesn't mind dealing with them whether they go around chopping heads off or eat camel burgers.

Originally posted by forklift
Mr Zafar is from the Ahmadiyya sect who are not classed as Muslims to start off with.

I know that Sunni and Shia Muslims disagree on organizational matters in Islam. This is related to the leadership of Islam following the death of Mohammed. These two groups don't agree with one another but they do each acknowledge that the other is Muslim.

Are Ismaili Muslims, for example, acknowledged to be Muslims by all other Muslims, or do some deny that they are Muslims? Are there other groups who call themselves Muslims, but who are thought not to be Muslims by other Muslims? Why are the Ahmadiyya sect thought not to be Muslims?

(Great signature line by the way.)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis


Let me ask you something - do you believe language can cause harm?

Ummm.....I know that you addressed this to the OP, but I find this a very interesting topic that you bring up....(I added the bold and italic)

If we remove that single question from the rest of the discussion and look at it in it's own light...then My answer to that would be....NO...The reason for this is that language only provides illustration...the cause and effect are individual or collective choice wether to act or react, wether to be offended or dismissive. We decide wether language in all it's forms, defines anything and ultimately any power or influence, aggression or restraint will always reside in the choice to act, react, be offended or humbled, enraged or quiescent.

Ultimately these are always individual decision cruxes and never relegated to the collective unless surrendered by the individual. Again...NO...no power to language, only to choice......All armies march on individual feet that have merely surrendered will to participate in collective programming subordinate to language command...again...through the individual decision to participate...or not.

This is true for armies, religions, governments, teams, gatherings, mobs, families, etc...Any group in any situation. There is only one exception...pre and post natal...until education and understanding...


MODS.......I know that at first blush this might seem off topic.....However, I think it is crucial to understanding this whole discussion...
I think that at the core of disparaging perception lies a non-cognized or un-recognized decision process and this process rusulted in a further, disparite result that was only slave to behavior or belief, through lack of consideration... Perhaps if we could take the time to make such considerations...ie., be truth stewards to our individual natures, then perhaps a basis for moving beyond confrontation into enlightenment might be engendered...

YouSir

Originally posted by LightningStrikesHere
It was not until I started reading the QURAN for my self, did I realize, not only how wrong I was., but how wrong most of the information on the Internet was.

I'm impressed. No one else can understand the Koran unless it is read in conjunction with the Hadith. Without the Hadith, the Koran is just a long collection of disjointed poems.

Originally posted by LightningStrikesHere
Have this islamphobia .primarily because of the media and these hand me down story's .but its not their fault.

I have missed the Islamaphobia in the media you speak of. My take on Islamic radicals is that they get a free ride in the US and UK media.

To give the radicals a free ride in the media doesn't make them go away. It just makes ordinary people lump moderate and radical Muslims together which is unfair to moderate Muslims.

BS

Salmon Rusdie (sp) has a fatwa issued against him by clerics for his book Satanic Verses.

You can't claim that you believe in free speech and at the same time have clerics issue fatwa's against people who practice free speech.

just saying

______________________

Originally posted by racasan

just saying

Hum, you say
gays , lesbians , jews , zionists ,
blacks , feminists , patriots , Boston Redsocks . . . . .
rule over you ? ? ?

Muslims just want the same equality.
Not even an Evangelist has the freedom to be drunk
and expose himself in public, so we blame this on
Muslims
Usually when people are so stressed to the breaking point,
(economically/health/spiritually) they tend to look
for scape-goats to blame This is 150% of what is happening
in western countries.

Originally posted by Maslo
limiting their immigration is good "final solution".

Islam as a monolithic belief will always be here to stay. you
can not ban a belief any more then you can ban yoga;
Just as yoga the more people learn about it, more people
will try it , convert to it, no matter what country they live in.
Communism is when you ban books, beliefs, and honest
education.

come now, you know that
freedom of speech is not a uk thing
- people have been jailed for facebook comments

U.K kids have been jailed for posting lame video's
for insulting plastic poppies, gays etc.
Why should hate speech against a demographic people
as Muslims be excluded as a criminal offense ?
Just as harassing hate speech directed at gays
laws need to be consistent or they are mute, leading to
a break down of society and government.

______________________

reply to post by ToneDeaf


Thats where I think this homosexual thing is going wrong. People shouldn't pick and choose which issues they are going to target when it comes to bullying, harrassment, discrimination or anything else. They should all come under the one banner and that includes religion. Zero tolerance for all otherwise there will always be problems.

______________________

I can in-vision a total breakdown of society once
a free-for-all, insult-frenzy happens.
Personally we may not agree with certain groups or
people, but there is never a good outcome in lynchings or
bullying. Dialog, education, and understanding
is the way to go.

______________________

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
Muhammad was . . .

A prophet and the funny thing is one of his closest followers was a Palestinian Christian who converted to Islam

Why would a Christian convert and follow him if he was such a bad man like people make him out to be...

edit on 11-3-2013 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

OH I dont know maybe because he did not want to wake up with his throat slit in the night? HE knew what happened to people who pissed him off. So he converted its not that hard to see to protect himself.

What an interesting thread. I've stayed clear of the Islam threads for about the past three years because I got tired of the entrenched thinking - that of others and the fact that in debating them I would also find myself entrenched as well - even though that is not the position I had started off in... but rather a natural reaction to adversarial interaction.

Now that I've been distanced and have some perspective....

On the one hand I can almost imagine some Arabic language ATS type site where members post pictures of the Westboro Baptist church with captions like "The Heartless Crusaders Are Coming. They Hate You As They Hate Their Own" or some such. A case of the exception being portrayed as the rule.

On the other hand, defending the idea that 81 out of 100 America Muslims are against suicide bombings... all I can think is "Who are the 19 who agree with it - and why are they allowed to be here???" As far as I am concerned, anyone who can justify or rationalize strapping explosive to themselves as a means of purposefully killing unsuspecting innocents needs a terminal case of getting beaten to death before they get the chance to act on their misguided thoughts.

Ultimately I do agree with the OP's general assessment. Islam does not seem to lend well to freedom of speech - at least not as most westerners understand it. Some members have made comments that it's not fair game to denigrate gays or Jews. Yet they seem somewhat oblivious to the fact that their comments stand and, basically serve to do exactly what they say is forbidden and unacceptable. That is exercising freedom of speech. The truth is we are free to say whatever we want. The caveat being that we have to own it after we say it. Owning a poor or unpopular opinion can lead to ostracism, lawsuit, and other things. But not state sponsored, automatic death. In some extremist Islamic nations that is not the case. Saying or believing the wrong thing can be the end of a person.

I also agree with FlyersFan. Women in these countries suffer inordinately and it's shameful.

I do not fear Islam, nor it's adherents. For better or worse I live in a world where ass's quickly have to cover checks that words or attitudes write. It's barbaric in its own way. But it's relatively fair and it tends to vent most dangerous things before they get out of hand. In other words. I don't see Sharia law going over so well in the hood. This has both positive and negative connotations. Sadly no system of control works here. Not even the laws that try to keep people civil and safe.

My parting thought. Even three years later, the entrenched thinking is still here. As long as people feel the need to exist in a paradigm where one side must be "right" and, by default, all others "wrong" - there will never be any chance of conciliation or compromise. Absolutes tend to only lend themselves to violence, propaganda, and hatred.

reply to post by ToneDeaf


All ideas should be open to scrutiny – if it’s a good idea it will stand the test, if it’s a bad idea it will eventually be abandoned – this is how people have being doing it for the past few hundred years and its seems to be working out well for us

And history show that when one group wants to use the force of law or violence to protect its idea that things never end well

so let me ask:
can islam stand on its own merits without the threat of violence against those who point out its flaws and if not then what do you think that say about islam?

And
Respect – should you demand it or earn it – and if you demand it, is it still respect?

______________________

Originally posted by racasan
Respect – should you demand it or earn it – and if you demand it,
is it still respect?

This is a pertinent point. Has u.s earn global respect ?
Majority say no. Respect is not earned by the barrel of a gun.

Originally posted by racasan
can islam stand on its own merits

It has, and will always continue to do so.

When it comes down to defense
and resisting, colonialists should realize that not everyone
has the same trait as Mahatma Gandhi.

______________________

I am inviting people in this thread to help debunk or show me why I am wrong in a thread I have created.. Islam and Christianity to most are two seperate teachings but to me, they are just about the same thing.

Dajjal/The Bible and the West

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
Muhammad was . . .

A prophet and the funny thing is one of his closest followers was a Palestinian Christian who converted to Islam

Why would a Christian convert and follow him if he was such a bad man like people make him out to be...

edit on 11-3-2013 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

OH I dont know maybe because he did not want to wake up with his throat slit in the night? HE knew what happened to people who pissed him off. So he converted its not that hard to see to protect himself.

Hey, how about I show you a Islamic prophecy which is possibly being fulfilled right now and has been since the last first century? Above this post there is a link, check it out and debunk it for me if you can.

reply to post by LightningStrikesHere


Peace and blessing to you and that beautiful reply quoiting from Qur'an.

I believe in the seals on hearts , eyes and ears (according 2 : 18 deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path))

But I also believe that Muhammad (PBUH) knew it , but he didn't give up.

I hope some one get curious and go on to do a research for him/her self without bigotry and with healthy heart.

And I agree with you that West is working on Islamophobia , but it is also my duty to talk about qur'an while have free time.

It is the most pleasant thing I have done in my life.

Some people talk from the bottom of their hearts and it is really special. And I know you know that not all these people have made themselves blind.

peace/ me.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
Muhammad was . . .

A prophet and the funny thing is one of his closest followers was a Palestinian Christian who converted to Islam

Why would a Christian convert and follow him if he was such a bad man like people make him out to be...

edit on 11-3-2013 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

OH I dont know maybe because he did not want to wake up with his throat slit in the night? HE knew what happened to people who pissed him off. So he converted its not that hard to see to protect himself.

Hey, how about I show you a Islamic prophecy which is possibly being fulfilled right now and has been since the last first century? Above this post there is a link, check it out and debunk it for me if you can.

I meant to say first Millenium.

Well, maybe I am reading the thread wrong, but what I mostly see from the "muslim apologists" is that instead of debunking the original post, there are excuses why people dont really need free speech for this and that and pointing fingers at some free speech restrictions in the west. Way to confirm the stereotype, IMHO..

Originally posted by Maslo
Well, maybe I am reading the thread wrong, but what I mostly see from the "muslim apologists" is that instead of debunking the original post, there are excuses why people dont really need free speech for this and that and pointing fingers at some free speech restrictions in the west. Way to confirm the stereotype, IMHO..

You put it perfectly.

The responses on this thread have only served to confirm that Muslims, or at the least the ones who have replied to this thread, do indeed oppose free speech.

Interestingly, a number of non-Muslim have gone one step further and aggressively argued that a non-Muslim shouldn't be allowed to even state that most Muslims in the UK and USA oppose free speech.

Reasons given have ranged variously from to do so: amounts to hating Islam and Muslims, is bigotry; amounts to being obsessed with Muslims and thinking they are out to get you &; is akin to Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric.

What sort of person states that pointing out that most Muslims in the UK and USA are opposed to free speech is the same as Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric?

I mean really?

reply to post by Maslo

Well, maybe I am reading the thread wrong, but what I mostly see from the "muslim apologists" is that instead of debunking the original post, there are excuses why people dont really need free speech for this and that and pointing fingers at some free speech restrictions in the west. Way to confirm the stereotype, IMHO..

There are several ways of looking at this thread

One - is to see it as an examination of Islam and it's relationship with the concept of free speech

Another way of looking at it is to see it as just one more contribution to the ongoing criticism of one group of people - and how in the end that amounts to being one more brick in the wall

Muslim apologists is a phrase I hear pretty often - it comes with it's own meaning I guess

Who is actually apologizing for Muslims? The OP suggests that all of Islam is demanding we limit freedom of speech. Well - is it all of Islam? What are we saying if we make that claim?

Which group of people is damaged the most by this argument - especially if it's not true?

Muslim apologists...suggests that whatever the Muslims do is so wrong it can't be explained away or apologized for, or more importantly - that there is something to apologize for

Getting back to the OP - So what if some Muslims do demand we not insult their religion? What is it they're actually saying? How far will it actually go?

The OP says: I don't want to be unified under the single banner of Islam.

Not going to happen - but we are all going to have to find a way to exist together as the world gets smaller and more complicated

You can't buy respect. You can't demand it either - but you can try asking for it