Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

Originally posted by DarknStormy
Some people are attacking an entire religion, how can people see nothing wrong with that?

If people want to believe that an omnipotent god choose an illiterate camel caravan herder in a geographical and cultural backwater to spread his message to the rest of mankind, then be my guest.

Do however respect my right to disagree with you rather than try to remove my right to do so on the grounds that you feel I am insulting your omnipotent sky god or your illiterate camel caravan herder by denying their divinity.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by skalla
so is the issue the religion (badly practiced) or some of the cultural traditions of certain places?

I can see your point of view.

It does appear that the Turkish army views Islam as a threat to democracy, having staged 4 coups since WWII to prevent an Islamist takeover.

In light of the current Islamist PM stating "Democracy is a train, from which you could alight once you reached your destination" (Link) they may not be far wrong.

I would feel safer with a secular army maintaining democracy than a Islamic state where people get prosecuted for twitters that insult Islam. There seems to be little in between.

edit on 11-3-2013 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

it's not a POV, it's a question

reply to post by DarknStormy


IN THIS THREAD I stated that I would fight for Mideast's right to practice his religion.

But as the old saying goes; my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose.

No-one's "right" should infringe on the rights of others.

Burn a book! Pee on a religious book!
As a "follower" of the Pope, my religion gets bashed daily on this site. No big deal. People will have their opinions and should be free to express them.

But when their expression inhibits my rights, then I have issue.

Islamists can believe whatever they want. But when their beliefs start infringing on mine, I will give caution. So far, this hasn't happened. And god-willing, it never will. But due diligence is always necessary.

no one here actually believes in pure freedom of speech it seems..

it's all relative

you are only free so long as your freedom does not impose upon mine, we all keep our own standards and goverments and laws are something we all have to endure/deal with depending on the country that fate/happenstance put us in, we are moulded by our environment and such

think of the children etc etc

ETA: i can call some one a c u next tuesday, and if someone drops the nut on me i can hardly cry about freedom of speech after all.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

As much as I can see what your getting at, I think people don't understand how much their religion means to them.. We will never get it unfortunetly and its better to respect their religion that incite tension.

I think some religious people don't understand how much freedom of speech means to people. They will probably never get it unfortunately so it is better that they respect freedom of speech rather than incite tension.

Originally posted by ollncasino
If people want to believe that an omnipotent god choose an illiterate camel caravan herder in a geographical and cultural backwater to spread his message to the rest of mankind, then be my guest.

Do however respect my right to disagree with you rather than try to remove my right to do so on the grounds that you feel I am insulting your omnipotent sky god or your illiterate camel caravan herder by denying their divinity.

I am not removing your right, I'm simply asking why you find it necessary to insult anothers belief system. I don't practice Islam but I do respect it simply because it means something to someone else. But I have learnt one thing from this thread and you have only proven my theory.. When I make the thread, you will understand what I'm talking about and I will link it up just for you so you can check it out. There is one thing that Islam is right about...

reply to post by skalla


Everyone should be equal is the regards to free speech.

No-ones "free speech" is greater than anothers.

No-ones free expression should ever trump another persons or cultures right to expression.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

I am not removing your right, I'm simply asking why you find it necessary to insult anothers belief system.

Denying a sky god and his prophet's divinity insults many Muslims and furthermore is a criminal offense in Islamic countries around the world.

Why shouldn't I be able to state that I don't believe in a god because their is no god without getting locked up?

Originally posted by DarknStormy


I am not removing your right, I'm simply asking why you find it necessary to insult anothers belief system. I don't practice Islam but I do respect it simply because it means something to someone else. But I have learnt one thing from this thread and you have only proven my theory.. When I make the thread, you will understand what I'm talking about and I will link it up just for you so you can check it out. There is one thing that Islam is right about...

edit on 11-3-2013 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

When I received orders directing me to Iraq, the first thing I did was buy a Koran.

The second thing I did was learn how to say, "I slept with your mother" in Farsi.

People should be free to express whatever they choose to say. Why qualify it?

reply to post by beezzer


thats just a bit puerile though surely, when i go to a foreign country i learn "hi" "thanks" and "beer"

ETA: at least learn some schmoozy lingo so you actually have a chance with their mom, there's no point in empty boasts dude



2nd ETA: you may learn something new foreign milfs ftw

Originally posted by skalla
reply to post by beezzer

 

thats just a bit puerile though surely, when i go to a foreign country i learn "hi" "thanks" and "beer"

Visiting Belgium and learning how to say, "Where is the loo?" is just a wee different, then say having vacation in some lovely war zone.

I'll never use that travel agent again!

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by DarknStormy

As much as I can see what your getting at, I think people don't understand how much their religion means to them.. We will never get it unfortunetly and its better to respect their religion that incite tension.

I think some religious people don't understand how much freedom of speech means to people. They will probably never get it unfortunately so it is better that they respect freedom of speech rather than incite tension.

Well don't come crying when pissed off Muslims are blowing up embassies and beheading your citizens then. You value freedom od speech, they value their 1400 year old religion.

reply to post by beezzer


belgium is a poor example, but i'll not go into that as i'm starting to enjoy myself and dont want to get banned



your choice of lingo though does shed light on why people in the middle east may hate american soldiers more than british, by jingo.

consideration is cool, winning folk over often requires words and actions - making enemies would not require you to learn insults.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Well don't come crying when pissed off Muslims are blowing up embassies and beheading your citizens then. You value freedom od speech, they value their 1400 year old religion.

Should a 2000 year old religion (Christianity) trump Islam?

Should a 3500 year old religion (Judaism) trump Christianity?

Should a 10,000 year old religion (Wicca) trump Judaism?

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Well don't come crying when pissed off Muslims are blowing up embassies and beheading your citizens then. You value freedom od speech, they value their 1400 year old religion.

By the same token, if staunch defenders of free speech start beheading Muslims and blowing up Muslim embassies, could I then say that Muslims shouldn't come crying?

Originally posted by skalla


consideration is cool, winning folk over often requires words and actions - making enemies would not require you to learn insults.

No. But pissing people off sometimes gets them to pop their heads up!

CAVEAT; I have never fired a weapon in a war zone. I was more interested in saving lives, not ending them.

Originally posted by beezzer
When I received orders directing me to Iraq, the first thing I did was buy a Koran.

The second thing I did was learn how to say, "I slept with your mother" in Farsi.

People should be free to express whatever they choose to say. Why qualify it?

People can say what they want but whats the point of insulting someone whether you believe in their god or not?

reply to post by beezzer


dont start the wicca is 10k yrs old crud, it just aint true.

all new religions like to claim long unbroken lines of descent.

wicca is very modern and emminently provably so - gerald gardner iirc really started it around about 60 years ago, i have some rather elderly friends from the golden dawn and they laugh like drains when neophytes claim ancient descent for wicca.

anyway, carry on

reply to post by skalla


Bankers are the aspects of 85% of our woes and the Medici's created modern banking.

Originally posted by skalla
reply to post by beezzer

 

dont start the wicca is 10k yrs old crud, it just aint true.

all new religions like to claim long unbroken lines of descent.

wicca is very modern and emminently provably so - gerald gardner iirc really started it around about 60 years ago, i have some rather elderly friends from the golden dawn and they laugh like drains when neophytes claim ancient descent for wicca.

anyway, carry on

My bad. Dated a witch in college. Only learned stuff from her.