God's Literal Signature on the BIble

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I do love to go toe to toe with the teacher...

Adam is all of us.

Colossians 1

Adam is an illogical myth... though the symbology is interesting...

And using Paul to back your arguments means very little to me...

You do not see it simply because you have not be prepared to see it. I cannot do this for you no matter what I say. your heart is hardened against the OT. Until you see that the OT and the NT agree, you won't see it clearly.

I can't see that the OT and the NT agree simply because they don't... My heart is hardened to the OT because what is found within its pages does not align with what the son of God taught...

God is raising a Son in the wilderness and the story of that upbringing may not suit your vision of what took place from hindsight. Looking back, you see the horrors of what needed to take place to raise a Son.

you've said this before... And as I've said previously, I do not agree with this theory... The OT isn't God raising his son... It is a book of "a son of God" or even a "creation" of God raising himself to the highest position above the true God...

It's easy to judge, but Job told us not to judge the one that the error came through.

Fortunately I have no need to judge said book... the words within judge themselves as unworthy and incompatible with the lessons brought to us by Gods son.

Jesus and the Father are One. We are ALL one. Atonement is bringing us back to At One Ment as the Spirit reaches back to the Father as the prodigal son in the wilderness. The One Spirit is the Shepherd.

Agreed...

Does a Shepherd also learn in the wilderness as he protects the sheep? Yes.

I suppose that depends on what one believes... Many believe Jesus was already perfect and thus he had no need to learn... which equates his little walk in the wilderness as nothing more then a walk in the park...

Personally I do not believe such things... I believe he had to learn to be perfect...

If you step away from your pride into humility, you see how beautiful the entire thing is.

It really has nothing to do with pride or humility... I recognise the beauty in all of life... The fact is the OT shows the ignorance of that beauty... and the lack of respect for life this OT god has...

Jesus said not to judge. If you judge, you are really judging him and the lot of humanity. There is a reason he said that you do it unto him if you do it unto the least of these.

how can I be judging him when I believe he is the standard... the example to which all of us should attempt to measure up to?

Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

There is one ocean, but many drops of dew. The sun evaporates and distills it all when it rises.

Lovely..

I'd have much more to say if I was debating with a typical Christian but I know you are not... you hold many of the same beliefs as I do... which complicates matters...

Though as usual... your replies are excellent

I know you were a teacher as we've discussed this in your past incarnation as Mr. Ed... I wish I had you as a teacher when I was a lad sir...

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by MamaJ

 

That's assuming a man named Adam actually lived. I personally believe that the garden story is just that, a story. It is an allegorical story used to get a certain message across, where Adam and Eve represent mankind and the forbidden fruit representing self-awareness. I think them covering themselves after eating the fruit points toward that.

The "son of man" does represent humanity in my opinion, but only because we do not worship the true god. If we worshiped the true god, we would be the son of god, not man. My opinion is that whenever Jesus uses that term he is not talking about himself, but the rest of humanity and those who spread lies.

edit on 9-3-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

For arguments sake, there was one before there were many. We will call him Adam or as I like to call him... Atom.

The first is the father of MAN because man was created out of the one.

The Son of God is all of us, as our true self is from the creation of spirit, which came first before the flesh.

The first man represents mans evolution to perfection (Adam to Christ), as this is what is evident we are doing. Perfecting the spirit.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

To believe this "Adam" to be the Father of man kind is also to believe at one point in human history there was only ONE person on the planet...

I have huge issues with that theory...

edit on 9-3-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

I did too, at first.

I think of it this way, happened this way, if you will.

Atom/Adam split and became mankind before any sexual encounters there was a split, or rather a big bang.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I understand what you are saying and how we could be ONE.

One loaf, one son, one image. I get it.

In the OT tough love was used to raise his son/all of us via nature that some call God's will?

I've always had a hard time as well in regards to the OT. Is it the true God? Really? I still ponder.

We really get one life, one chance? I still ponder and lean toward a big fat NO!

Many questions still left to answer.

reply to post by Akragon


Read this on Adam as Son of Man

reply to post by EnochWasRight


You might want to do a keyword or exact phrase search in an online Bible regarding "Son of God". It doesn't match up with what your link is stating.

Answer these questions: Is Adam the first born of all creation?

No, Cain is the firstborn.
Adam is the first created man.

Jesus is the first 'borne' of ALL creation because He is the projection of Light & the Life of God Himself as the zero point of His own creation. God exists outside of creation, thus He participates in it spiritually through the self projection of His Spirit of Wisdom and physically through the creamy cosmic nougat of light & life itself, which He incarnated within the flesh of Jesus Christ. The Creator reduced Himself to fully, yet perfectly, participate within His own creation.

Jesus is not created, He is the impetus of creation itself Who was truly from the beginning because He IS our beginning..."Let there be light, and there was Light."

Is Adam the Father of mankind?

Physically, yes.

Does 1 Corinthians 15 name Christ as the Last Adam?

It says that "the first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit".

It does not say nor imply they are the same person. It clearly contrasts the two, with the implications being that Christ was a type of Adam. Just as THE Adam was the corruptible physical, Jesus is the incorruptible spiritual.

Did Job name the Redeemer as the one the trouble come through?

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,

No.
Verse 28 is the continuation of Job's lament of his miserable condition which begins at verse 1. Verses 25, 26 & 27 is Job's expression of confidence that God will vindicate the faithful when faced with false accusations, such as those claimed against him by his three friends.
Job pleads with his accusers for pity in verse 21, then warns them in verses 28 & 29 that their accusations are baseless & that they will have to answer for their false claims.

Read it again. What I've shared with you is true and sound. You are letting the yeast of gnosis spoil your loaf.
There are mysteries of our faith, but it is not a mystical faith. There is a difference.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

You might want to do a keyword or exact phrase search in an online Bible regarding "Son of God". It doesn't match up with what your link is stating.

Three times.

1) Jesus of course.

2) Hebrews 7 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

3) And, of course, Adam. LUKE 3 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


I just showed you the three places where it matches up. Show me where it doesn't.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight


Are you familiar with involution and evolution?

Involution and Evolution

The reason for involution is Delight - the Delight of Being (the Spirit or Absolute) moving to Delight of Becoming (temporal existence, the cosmos). Being throws itself forward into a multiplicity of forms, becoming lost in the inconscience of matter,[3] and then through evolution it partakes in the Delight of rediscovering the Spirit which had been hidden in the interim.

Evolution is thus the movement forward by which the created universe evolves from its initial state of inconscience (i.e. as matter), evolves animated life forms and mental beings (i.e. humans), and continues to evolve spiritual properties, and in that process rediscovers its Source. Such an Evolution of animated forms is only possible because at each stage of development, the developing entity contains within itself the conception of what it may become. Thus, the evolution of animated life out of matter supposes a previous involution of that animated capacity. This is akin to a seed that already has the essence of the tree that will emerge from it.

The Truth within your spirit perceives the involution & evolution construct of creation, yet it seems you cannot see the forest because you are distracted by the trees.
The involution & evolution of creation is the projection of God (Who exists outside of it) within it & reconciling all things back unto Himself in the person of Jesus.

You cannot intellectualize faith. Jesus said Himself that the kingdom of heaven belongs to those with child-like reason. Knowledge and wisdom are not the same. Wisdom vindicates her children, knowledge perverts them.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Three times.

1) Jesus of course.

2) Hebrews 7 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

3) And, of course, Adam. LUKE 3 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


I just showed you the three places where it matches up. Show me where it doesn't.

As for Hebrews 7, "made LIKE unto the Son of God" isn't Son of God.

As for Luke 3, "son of God" without capitalized letters was always used to represent followers of God. There was a separate Greek word used as it pertained to "Son of God" with capital letters and Jesus was the only one that held that specific title.

reply to post by stupid girl

No, Cain is the firstborn. Adam is the first created man.

I had not thought of this. Compare this to Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

If Cain is the first born of creation, how do we reconcile this to the tradition that Cain is the seed of Satan?

1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.

Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;

Who is the seed of the Serpent? Clearly, if we read Jude 1 concerning Cain and the reference to Enoch's fallen watchers, we get some idea that mankind has been corrupted by the seed of Satan.

Cain (Farmer) wanted to give the work of his hands as a sacrifice. Able (Shepherd) gave the perfect sacrifice of the substitute animal. As you say, the Bible holds mysteries, but this one is hard to answer. I am actually at a loss on this one. You point out something I had not thought about.

Another interesting note is that God loved Jacob (Farmer) but hated Esau (Hunter). By comparison, we see the Farmer above killing the Shepherd.

reply to post by stupid girl

No.
Verse 28 is the continuation of Job's lament of his miserable condition which begins at verse 1. Verses 25, 26 & 27 is Job's expression of confidence that God will vindicate the faithful when faced with false accusations, such as those claimed against him by his three friends.
Job pleads with his accusers for pity in verse 21, then warns them in verses 28 & 29 that their accusations are baseless & that they will have to answer for their false claims.

Read it again. What I've shared with you is true and sound. You are letting the yeast of gnosis spoil your loaf.
There are mysteries of our faith, but it is not a mystical faith. There is a difference.

The subject above the description of 'HIM' is not in reference to the friends (Plural) or Job himself. It is in reference to the Redeemer that Job notes within the very same idea he is speaking of.

If we consult a different translation, your idea comes to the surface. The question is, which is the correct translation.

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?

29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

So much of our confusion with the Bible arises from what is lost in translation. The same is true with knowing if Cain is the seed of Satan and if, by first born, it is referring to Cain or the only begotten Son of God.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Always go with the translation that doesn't contradict itself. I've only found it in the KJV.

I need to look into the Bible further and I find it fascinating if one only begin to search for patterns and hidden clues during study, but, I find myself coming back to a scenario of thought in which we exist in a thought, which is the Universe, created by the thought of another entity, perhaps God/Yahweh/Yahua/YWHW who projected himself into this reality as Jesus/Jeh(s)uhs/Ye(s)hua/YHSWH and is all knowing as he is the original thinker of this conscious thought. Perhaps he lives in a God Universe in which every God is simply meditating, like monks in a circle, while consciously shaping reality after reality and in one of these we happen to exist.

O enigmatic reality, infinitely overflowing of infinite possibilities.

If this is the case, I'd really like God to answer me how the great pyramid of Giza was buildt and who did it... I simply cannot accept that early Egyptians did it with primitive technology.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Put on some Pink Floyd and take a seat.

Jesus is the Light, the Eternal Life, the Word of God. Just a few names we are given for Him.
In the beginning, or what we are capable of fathoming as such with our linear perspective, the Spirit of God was brooding over the dark abyss of the undulating chaos of infinite potential.
His first action was to speak.
He spoke Words and the Words made order from chaos.
That spoken potential for order was light & God said it was very good.
That Light was not created, as it was the initial projection of God Himself into the beginning of the realization of His own creation, "reality" as we know it.
The Light was the point of beginning of all creation from which all the potential of creation itself was drawn.
The projection of Light draws Its potential from the formless, shapeless, indescribable God from which it came.
Jesus said no one was good except the Father, but Jesus was the perfect, sinless representation of all humanity.
Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, but He also said that if you have seen Him (Jesus in the flesh) then you have seen the Father.
These seem like contradictions, but our Mighty God speaks only truth, so we must be certain that they can be reconciled. And they can if you have understanding of the precious pearls I'm sharing with you.

Jesus is the uncreated "Son" of God, the first "borne" of ALL creation, He is the infinite potential of order in a given existence- our existence is finite, thus infinite existence can truly only be attained through Jesus.
Jesus said no one may get to the Father but from Him and Jesus can only speak Truth.
Those who have eyes to see & ears to hear will understand the depth and breadth of what I'm sharing with you.

Jesus is the uncreated, begotten "Son" of Man because mankind was created in God's image and Jesus is the perfection of that image and God's revelation of Himself to the whole of creation.

If Cain is the first born of creation, how do we reconcile this to the tradition that Cain is the seed of Satan?

1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.

Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;

Adam & Eve sinned and opened the door for all those born from them to be "born in sin", meaning Adam & Eve were not created with inherently sinful natures. Through deception, they chose rebellion & self-acquired knowledge. Self-acquired knowledge creates flawed understanding.
Because of their sin, all those born from Adam & Eve would have a flawed and inherently sinful, rebellious nature.

Cain, as the firstborn of the fallen Adam, exemplified this fallen proclivity to listen to the serpent over God. If anyone was a shadow of Jesus as the Incarnate Christ, it would have been Abel, who pleased God and did no wrong and died an innocent man.
Cain represents the seed of rebellion & sin.
Abel represents the potential for goodness within mankind.
Between the two, there is strife & enmity.

There is a spiritual & physical manifestation of all things. As above, so below. The watchers were part of what could be understood as the physical seed.

reply to post by stupid girl


At any rate, we must admit there is more here than we can get simply from the text. Begotten is monogenes in Greek, which means "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." I am not sure borne is a good definition of this as God is infinite. If the Son had a beginning, then he is not infinite. Since we know God is infinite, then one thing can never be divided and also called, itself, infinite. All things must comprise the whole. 1 Corinthians 15 makes it clear that Jesus was not God. He said he was one with the Father and I still see this as Adam. It is clear that the first man was from the Son of God. Jesus came from both infinite (Holy Spirit) and finite (Mary). Clearly, He is either finite with a beginning or He is as monogenes suggests--of a kind in relationship to the first.

Mankind is the monogenes of Adam. Adam is of the Son and the Son is of God the Father. I think it is also worth noting that God is three as a mirror to the family. The Holy Spirit is clearly the female aspect of the Father. The Son is the combination of Father and Spirit. In John 1, we find that the Son of God is WORD. Logos implies what physics sees as Consciousness (Spirit) collapsing wave function in the descending dimensions above. Light is the key imagery for God. From a creative aspect, light and life come from Consciousness (Spirit) and wave (Word).

I am still perplexed by Cain. I think there is much hidden in this. The Dead Sea Scrolls have a fragment of Genesis 4 that states Cain is Satan's seed. This makes me wonder even more. The twins of the Bible are unmistakable. Freemasonry has an obsession with twins. Many traditions in Masonry identify themselves as the Sons of Cain. There is also this document from the DSS that speaks of the Angel of Light and the Angel of Darkness. As you point out, Jesus is identified with the light.

Mystery.

reply to post by stupid girl


Think a bit further on this. 1 Corinthians 15 clearly states that Jesus is related to God and hands everything over to Him. This denotes a hierarchy. Additionally, if Jesus is born, he is not infinite. For him to be God, he must be infinite as well. What is time but a cut segment of infinity. For anything to exist apart from God, it cannot be God. It can only be a secondary aspect of God. Monogenes in Greek suggests this very thing.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


'borne'= carried, transported, realized
The 'real'-'ization' of God Himself within His own creation.
How can we, as creations, put limitations on God? Who says and by what authority that God is not divisible? For all intents and purposes, God is infinitely divisible and infinitely whole. He is everything, nothing and a side of mashed potatoes.

It seems that you are drowning in the futile attempt to find God in philosophical vanities. Jesus is God. The exact machinations are a mystery of our faith, but any attempt to associate Him with anything less is no good. Anything less and you are flirting with great deception. Anything less and you make Him a liar, for there is only one God and only Him are we to serve and worship, yet all knees bow to Christ and by Him our sins are forgiven.

I cannot fathom how someone could truly read the Bible in its entirety, cover to cover, and not see it. Most of those on ATS who categorically argue about it have never even read the whole thing. And that includes most Christians, utterly absurd.

There is only one God.
There can only be one order of Truth.
Anything else is chaos outside of order.

Your replies have many words, but never really say anything. I understand your orgy of words & scholarly rambling, but I can make no sense of what you are really trying to say.
It all sounds very intellectual and deeply philosophical, so surely you must know what you are talking about? But as I continue to watch you work through your faith, I'm beginning to wonder if you really do.

God doesn't care how well-read we are, nor is He impressed with the scope of our self-attained knowledge. True Wisdom is given, not earned. Everything else is truly vanity and a chasing after the wind.

There are two paths: life or death. God said to choose life, to seek His Wisdom and instruction. But men continue to choose death, to lust for knowledge by their own devise.
To truly begin to know God, we must first completely empty our cup of speculation and presumption before He can begin to fill it with new wine.
God can only be approached by one like a child. There is no other way.

I wish you the best, Brother. But it seems your cup is full to the brim and sloshing over. Just because thistles can grow in the garden of Truth doesn't mean they belong in there.

reply to post by stupid girl

'borne'= carried, transported, realized
The 'real'-'ization' of God Himself within His own creation.
How can we, as creations, put limitations on God? Who says and by what authority that God is not divisible? For all intents and purposes, God is infinitely divisible and infinitely whole. He is everything, nothing and a side of mashed potatoes.

I'm only making the point that God is eternal and without beginning or ending. Jesus is begotten, which show him to be made from with a beginning. I support the claim that there is a difference between God and Jesus by this very fact, but mostly on the basis of 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Only God can put any authority under a life form. Clearly, there is a division between Christ and God. This also supports my contention that saying, "I and the Father are one," does not imply that He is God, but that He IS the Father of mankind as the Son (first born image).

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Here is where I am returning to your statement that the firstborn is Cain and not Adam. To me, this makes a great deal of sense but gives us something to consider with the verse above.

Also, keep in mind what an image is. It is only a representation of God in reflection. We like to think of God as a man like us. I think it is closer to the truth that the Cosmos is the image of God as stated in the Hermetic writings. If we lump all things under Christ, made by him and rendered into our reality by WORD, then we need to broaden our view of what the Son of God really is.

Did he come in human form as Christ? Yes. The consciousness that Christ possessed was that of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by stupid girl

It seems that you are drowning in the futile attempt to find God in philosophical vanities. Jesus is God. The exact machinations are a mystery of our faith, but any attempt to associate Him with anything less is no good. Anything less and you are flirting with great deception. Anything less and you make Him a liar, for there is only one God and only Him are we to serve and worship, yet all knees bow to Christ and by Him our sins are forgiven.

I have already quoted 1 Corinthians 15. There is also this verse.

"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).

Additionally, we get this comparison of Christ to future mankind:

John 14

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Can a mere mortal do greater things than God Himself? I think the Bible answers itself. In John 14:28, it is clear that Jesus denotes a Father. I would assume God the Father, but it is not clear since the Father of mankind is also Adam, the first created soul (Son of God).

Is there any question in your mind that Adam is the Son of God?

Luke 3

38 the son of Enosh,

the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Clearly, Cain is the firstborn, but Adam is the begotten Son of God. Is there any doubt that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God? Again, there can only be one if he is an ONLY Son. Additionally, we then return to Colossians 1.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God's fullness dwells in Him. We are ALL the Son of God in this respect. We, who are many, are ONE Loaf.

1 Corinthians 10

And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

The Bread (Body) of Christ allows us to overcome the sacrifice that is needed. Cain offered the WORKS of his hands. Able offered a perfect sacrifice and was the sacrifice for the fallen nature in Cain. By his wounds, we are healed.

I am not so much trying to convince you of this, just show you that my thinking on this is solid. I would never go against the Word of God, but I an never unwilling to challenge my theology. I am always a child in this respect and theology is not a consideration to me. It is pride.