Reconciliation, an accomplished fact

reply to post by newnature

God has taken the initiative to reconcile man back to himself. God is not reconciled to man, as though God were partly to blame for the enmity.

"God" is entirely to blame. Assuming the Bible to eb entirely accurate, he is the one who distanced himself from mankind. He could have lived among us. He could have taken the role of a king. No one would have contested his power. Any who did, could have been tested and given a suitable position in accordance with their demonstrations. But instead, "God" has chosen to remain forever above and apart from his children.

Simply put, the only barrier between us and your god is the gap he has placed there. His ephemeral nature has proven a greater obstacle than anything else. Do you think that if he were to claim this planet as his kingdom and establish his rule over us, anyone would be able to rebel? No. Would anyone want to, once his love and benevolence were clear for all to see? No.

Of all the people involved, "God" has the most power to create peace and the least inclination to do so. After all, no one needs a god when there's nothing to be afraid of.

Rather, man is reconciled to God, for it is man who moved away from God. When people need to be reconciled to one another, it normally involves a situation where fault lies on both sides to some degree.

He created us. Every imperfection started with him. If it exists, it is because "God" willed it. I will not be blamed for his mistakes. I would rather be recognized for my humanity than my perfection. Perfection creates inequality, imperfection creates bonds.

Not so with the case between man and God, man has moved away from God, and it is man who needs to be reconciled back to God, not God back to man.

He is the one who has judged us. He is the one who determined our fate. And why? Because of what he himself did to us.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by newnature

 

God has taken the initiative to reconcile man back to himself. God is not reconciled to man, as though God were partly to blame for the enmity.

"God" is entirely to blame. Assuming the Bible to eb entirely accurate, he is the one who distanced himself from mankind. He could have lived among us. He could have taken the role of a king. No one would have contested his power. Any who did, could have been tested and given a suitable position in accordance with their demonstrations. But instead, "God" has chosen to remain forever above and apart from his children.

Simply put, the only barrier between us and your god is the gap he has placed there. His ephemeral nature has proven a greater obstacle than anything else. Do you think that if he were to claim this planet as his kingdom and establish his rule over us, anyone would be able to rebel? No. Would anyone want to, once his love and benevolence were clear for all to see? No.

Of all the people involved, "God" has the most power to create peace and the least inclination to do so. After all, no one needs a god when there's nothing to be afraid of.

Rather, man is reconciled to God, for it is man who moved away from God. When people need to be reconciled to one another, it normally involves a situation where fault lies on both sides to some degree.

He created us. Every imperfection started with him. If it exists, it is because "God" willed it. I will not be blamed for his mistakes. I would rather be recognized for my humanity than my perfection. Perfection creates inequality, imperfection creates bonds.

Not so with the case between man and God, man has moved away from God, and it is man who needs to be reconciled back to God, not God back to man.

He is the one who has judged us. He is the one who determined our fate. And why? Because of what he himself did to us.

You said "God is entirely to blame" Does this imply that God is not sovereign because I got news for you he is. God does what ever he sees fit to do and he always takes the blame.

Isaiah 45 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

You said "God is entirely to blame" Does this imply that God is not sovereign because I got news for you he is. God does what ever he sees fit to do and he always takes the blame.

When has he ever atoned for his actions without blaming someone else for the necessity?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

You said "God is entirely to blame" Does this imply that God is not sovereign because I got news for you he is. God does what ever he sees fit to do and he always takes the blame.

When has he ever atoned for his actions without blaming someone else for the necessity?

edit on 18-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Are you serious. God does not have to atone for anything he is sovereign. Sovereign means that He can do what ever He sees fit to do. Does the clay question the potter?

reply to post by mplsfitter539

Are you serious. God does not have to atone for anything he is sovereign. Sovereign means that He can do what ever He sees fit to do. Does the clay question the potter?

Clay isn't sentient, and I've never seen a potter demand worship from his/her newly crafted vase because it was slightly asymmetrical and not quite as tall as s/he had planned.

So yes, I am entirely serious. And I find such a mentality incredibly hypocritical in a species that rejected Hitler. Either you support authoritarian rule or you do not. If you fight dictators in a finite life, then why the hell would you embrace one in the infinite afterlife?

And again, we should not have to reconcile for being born flawed. I find more potential in imperfection than there ever was in perfection. Perfection is perpetual monotony, whereas imperfection is perpetual change. Which teaches us more? Which gives us more to fight for, more to learn from, more to value and more to remember? To be perfect is to be damned. To be imperfect is to find your own salvation, the ultimate blessing of free will.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

Are you serious. God does not have to atone for anything he is sovereign. Sovereign means that He can do what ever He sees fit to do. Does the clay question the potter?

Clay isn't sentient, and I've never seen a potter demand worship from his/her newly crafted vase because it was slightly asymmetrical and not quite as tall as s/he had planned.

So yes, I am entirely serious. And I find such a mentality incredibly hypocritical in a species that rejected Hitler. Either you support authoritarian rule or you do not. If you fight dictators in a finite life, then why the hell would you embrace one in the infinite afterlife?

And again, we should not have to reconcile for being born flawed. I find more potential in imperfection than there ever was in perfection. Perfection is perpetual monotony, whereas imperfection is perpetual change. Which teaches us more? Which gives us more to fight for, more to learn from, more to value and more to remember? To be perfect is to be damned. To be imperfect is to find your own salvation, the ultimate blessing of free will.

edit on 19-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Praise God for that will you call free. I am sorry but He paid the ultimate price so there goes your free will theory.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Clay isn't sentient, and I've never seen a potter demand worship from his/her newly crafted vase because it was slightly asymmetrical and not quite as tall as s/he had planned.

So yes, I am entirely serious. And I find such a mentality incredibly hypocritical in a species that rejected Hitler. Either you support authoritarian rule or you do not. If you fight dictators in a finite life, then why the hell would you embrace one in the infinite afterlife?

And again, we should not have to reconcile for being born flawed. I find more potential in imperfection than there ever was in perfection. Perfection is perpetual monotony, whereas imperfection is perpetual change. Which teaches us more? Which gives us more to fight for, more to learn from, more to value and more to remember? To be perfect is to be damned. To be imperfect is to find your own salvation, the ultimate blessing of free will.

edit on 19-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Besides an utter failure to understand what an analogy is, you seem to be grasping at the straws of ever-more-desperate arguments. We rightly reject authoritarian rule by fellow humans, for they did not build what they desire to rule. God did. You want to get out from under God so much, you are willing to state that imperfection is better than perfection. Come again? How long are you going to take this tack??

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Besides an utter failure to understand what an analogy is,

You compared ownership of an inanimate substance with a relationship between sentient entities. Your analogy was a very poor one, so don't even think about lecturing me in that area.

you seem to be grasping at the straws of ever-more-desperate arguments.

And what does that say about your hitherto failure to defend yourself adequately? Stop attacking me and start refuting my arguments.

We rightly reject authoritarian rule by fellow humans, for they did not build what they desire to rule. God did.

Just because you make something, doesn't give you any right to control it. Just ask all the men paying child support. They are not fathers, they are sperm donors, and they chose that position when they stopped taking responsibility for the life they helped bring into the world.

When he starts acting like a king, I'll call him one.

You want to get out from under God so much, you are willing to state that imperfection is better than perfection. Come again? How long are you going to take this tack??

It is clear from your arguments that your partiality and bias will not allow you the broadened perspective and flexibility of mind to recognize the potential represented by imperfection. What will you do when you are so complete that life no longer provides challenges for you? Will you sit and twiddle your thumbs for the rest of eternity? What does that do for you, in contrast to being an imperfect creature that experiences both pain and joy? A creature that is still capable of wonder and surprise?

Would you give up change for monotony? Give up the ability to be hurt for the inability to grow? If so, you are a sad, frightened little being who doesn't understand the first thing of what it is to truly live.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I don't have to put up with this, so I am going to leave you to your own device (beloved imperfection). As I did yesterday with jmdewey60, it's goodbye time. I'll see your posts around the forum, but I will probably not read them anymore. Movin' on...

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I don't have to put up with this, so I am going to leave you to your own device (beloved imperfection). As I did yesterday with jmdewey60, it's goodbye time. I'll see your posts around the forum, but I will probably not read them anymore. Movin' on...

I see. You're found yourself unable to tolerate a challenge you have difficulty coming to terms with, so you choose to retreat in favor of less hardy obstacles. On the bright side, you'll feel more comfortable among your more sheeple-minded acquaintances, I'm sure.

No wonder you admire perfection. If you deal with all of your shortcomings so efficiently, perfection must be the Holy Grail of your existence.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

I don't have to put up with this, so I am going to leave you to your own device (beloved imperfection). As I did yesterday with jmdewey60, it's goodbye time. I'll see your posts around the forum, but I will probably not read them anymore. Movin' on...

I see. You're found yourself unable to tolerate a challenge you have difficulty coming to terms with, so you choose to retreat in favor of less hardy obstacles. On the bright side, you'll feel more comfortable among your more sheeple-minded acquaintances, I'm sure.

No wonder you admire perfection. If you deal with all of your shortcomings so efficiently, perfection must be the Holy Grail of your existence.

edit on 20-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You might say that perfection is the holy grail. Creator God has called us all to be perfect. Relax though God will give ample time for all to become perfect, even you, some will just take much longer than others do.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

You might say that perfection is the holy grail. Creator God has called us all to be perfect. Relax though God will give ample time for all to become perfect, even you, some will just take much longer than others do.

If you say that the goal is to be perfect, then you obviously have no idea what perfection is.

Perfection is lack of change. No thought, no emotion, absolutely no change in either mind, heart, or soul. Call it eternal suspension, for as long as you are perfect, you are motionless, unaware, unthinking, unfeeling. You effectively cease to exist in any fashion we are familiar with, because there is nothing distinguishing you from millions of other perfect beings.

To feel, to think, is to stray from the one razor line of perfection. It is to disagree, to have an other opinion, to have a distinct thought pattern and personality of your own. It is to be a break in the line of otherwise identical mentalities and emotional states. To be perfect is to be a statue amongst statues, forever dead because to be alive is to be flawed.

Imperfection allows change, which allows shift in focus and perspective, in thought and emotion, in understanding and awareness. All of the things we enjoy as human beings come from being imperfect. From being ignorant, weak, finite, and mortal. Love, joy, anger, grief, challenge, triumph....all of these emotions are only possible when you are imperfect, because imperfection invites adjustment and growth. When you are perfect, you do not grow. You remain spiritually stagnant, like a patient in a coma. You are no longer anything like what a human being is. Perfection is death, because no manner of life is perfect in the way you envision perfection.

If that is your desire, then you do not desire salvation. You desire damnation, the damnation of monotony, repetition, and stagnation. You know nothing of perfection. You are an ignorant, ungrateful mortal, and as such, you have much to learn about this life before you even begin to hope for the next. I'm sorry if I sound crass and unforgiving, but perfection is a curse I would not wish on my greatest enemy. Perfection is a more complete hell than any you can possibly suggest to me. Because perfection is a hell of monotony, and boredom is a greater agony than any torture you could suggest. Feeling pain is better than feeling nothing at all. You can't tell what is real and what isn't. You wish you could die, but you can't. It's like the same record playing over and over again, the theme song to an inescapable nightmare where you can do absolutely everything but the one thing that would bring you peace.

You know nothing of perfection, and your desire for it reeks of ignorant ingratitude. Be grateful for your flaws - you clearly have no idea the opportunities they present, the joys they provide of being able to feel and learn and grow. Even pain serves its purpose. But again, you have no appreciation for that sort of thing. You want to be something you know nothing about. But how could you? You're an unappreciative human. It's to be expected.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

You know nothing of perfection, and your desire for it reeks of ignorant ingratitude. Be grateful for your flaws - you clearly have no idea the opportunities they present, the joys they provide of being able to feel and learn and grow. Even pain serves its purpose. But again, you have no appreciation for that sort of thing. You want to be something you know nothing about. But how could you? You're an unappreciative human. It's to be expected.

I know Jesus Christ and He is perfect. With opinions like the ones you have just aired I think it is safe to assume that you do not know Christ or of Him. He is perfect and calls on us to be perfect like Him. So you can take up your little argument with the Creator of the universe when you get the chance....good luck with that!

reply to post by mplsfitter539

I know Jesus Christ and He is perfect. With opinions like the ones you have just aired I think it is safe to assume that you do not know Christ or of Him. He is perfect and calls on us to be perfect like Him. So you can take up your little argument with the Creator of the universe when you get the chance....good luck with that!

No, he's what you were taught to expect from perfection. There's a difference from knowing and being taught to believe. There's no way you can ever be the kind of perfect you're trying to reach in Jesus. If that's what you want to be, then you want to not be human. Why can't you be satisfied with who and what you are? Who is Jesus to tell you you have to be better? If he wants us to be perfect so badly, maybe he could have spared us all a hadache and left out our brains! Made us so much easier to just reach in and turn us into meat dolls! That's all he wants, right? He wrote the story, all the roles hav been written and all the stages have been set and all the props lined up and the schedules arranged. We're just here to give the play some life. Give it that spark of realism. What's the point? I don't want to live my life as a puppet. I believe there is power in independence. Screw destiny, I'll rewrite that whole darn play! Start throwing some die, flip a coin a few times instead of rigging it all from the beginning. You want free will? I won't even write it. Random number generator all the way! Every decision gets an odd or even response - odd for no, even for yes. We'll take the whole Grand Design deal right out of the question.

But yeah...if that's what he's selling, I ain't buying. What would I do with a perfect forever? That's dull. Mundane. Boring. Unoriginal. Mainstream. Whatever. It's a shallow-minded dream, one that doesn't appreciate how much someone can learn from being utterly screwed by life. I've seen a man with deformed arms and legs, like stubby twigs, and he still manages to go swimming, get around, and give presentations about how great a life he's having. You don't have to be perfect to live an awesome life. See, that man inspires through imperfection. That takes a lot more talent than touting perfction like it's a badge. Anyone can hate a flaw. But anyone who matters will accept it. And no, they can't ask to be worshipped in return. That's just wrong.

Don't run away! Do you still think you can defend your faith?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

I know Jesus Christ and He is perfect. With opinions like the ones you have just aired I think it is safe to assume that you do not know Christ or of Him. He is perfect and calls on us to be perfect like Him. So you can take up your little argument with the Creator of the universe when you get the chance....good luck with that!

No, he's what you were taught to expect from perfection. There's a difference from knowing and being taught to believe. There's no way you can ever be the kind of perfect you're trying to reach in Jesus. If that's what you want to be, then you want to not be human. Why can't you be satisfied with who and what you are? Who is Jesus to tell you you have to be better? If he wants us to be perfect so badly, maybe he could have spared us all a hadache and left out our brains! Made us so much easier to just reach in and turn us into meat dolls! That's all he wants, right? He wrote the story, all the roles hav been written and all the stages have been set and all the props lined up and the schedules arranged. We're just here to give the play some life. Give it that spark of realism. What's the point? I don't want to live my life as a puppet. I believe there is power in independence. Screw destiny, I'll rewrite that whole darn play! Start throwing some die, flip a coin a few times instead of rigging it all from the beginning. You want free will? I won't even write it. Random number generator all the way! Every decision gets an odd or even response - odd for no, even for yes. We'll take the whole Grand Design deal right out of the question.

But yeah...if that's what he's selling, I ain't buying. What would I do with a perfect forever? That's dull. Mundane. Boring. Unoriginal. Mainstream. Whatever. It's a shallow-minded dream, one that doesn't appreciate how much someone can learn from being utterly screwed by life. I've seen a man with deformed arms and legs, like stubby twigs, and he still manages to go swimming, get around, and give presentations about how great a life he's having. You don't have to be perfect to live an awesome life. See, that man inspires through imperfection. That takes a lot more talent than touting perfction like it's a badge. Anyone can hate a flaw. But anyone who matters will accept it. And no, they can't ask to be worshipped in return. That's just wrong.

Don't run away! Do you still think you can defend your faith?

Don't worry I won't run away and yes I can still defend my faith you have not said anything to change my mind. God created you just the way you are. If you hate God that's ok for now. Many people who think they hate God will learn to love Him..............John 12
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The word draw here actually translates more accurately as drag. What Christ is saying here is that He will drag all men unto Himself. I do not see a time limiting factor in this verse. So since God owns time He has enough of it to accomplish everything He said He would. Even the stubborn people of this earth will see God in all His glory and will not be able to resist His love.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


I don't see how you're refuting the points I raised in that post.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

I don't see how you're refuting the points I raised in that post.

You are correct I decided not to respond to most of your posts anymore because it is beginning to appear as though you may be trying to evoke a response out of desperation. Now learn how to debate an issue without getting emotionally attached to either view.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

You are correct I decided not to respond to most of your posts anymore because it is beginning to appear as though you may be trying to evoke a response out of desperation. Now learn how to debate an issue without getting emotionally attached to either view.

I'm still trying to break you of your habit:



You know, the general flow of your previous arguments. All you do is spit scripture as though it's a court verdict. I'm hoping for something more...substantial, but I'll understand if something like that isn't forthcoming. At least be honest with yourself, with everyone here. Admit that you lie to yourself because you aren't comfortable with the reality of this world. No one would blame you.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

You are correct I decided not to respond to most of your posts anymore because it is beginning to appear as though you may be trying to evoke a response out of desperation. Now learn how to debate an issue without getting emotionally attached to either view.

I'm still trying to break you of your habit:

You know, the general flow of your previous arguments. All you do is spit scripture as though it's a court verdict. I'm hoping for something more...substantial, but I'll understand if something like that isn't forthcoming. At least be honest with yourself, with everyone here. Admit that you lie to yourself because you aren't comfortable with the reality of this world. No one would blame you.

edit on 6-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Well I am glad to hear that no one will blame me anyway. I don't spit scripture as though it's a court verdict because I don't put God on the level of the court system since He is far above it. Likewise I don't treat man's laws as if they were divine.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

Well I am glad to hear that no one will blame me anyway. I don't spit scripture as though it's a court verdict because I don't put God on the level of the court system since He is far above it. Likewise I don't treat man's laws as if they were divine.

Obviously, otherwise you would hopefully be asking for a little more to go on. Court cases aren't won through faith, they are won through fact. There's a reason for that. But I don't suppose you would understand.

Divinity means nothing if it is based on nothing. And that's all faith is. A reason to ignore what the facts tell you, which is usually a very bad idea considering facts tell you everything about your reality. But is it reality you're interested, or being able to get up in the morning? You're not interested in truth, you're interested in the strength to not give up.

I'm not sure how reconciliation fits into that scheme though. Do you blame the need for that strength on your fallibility as a human? Do you hold a grudge against your imperfection for allowing the pain and ardor of life? Explain why reconciliation is so necessary, please. Why do you have to atone for being imperfect?