Conversation with A Christian, and Other Thoughts.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by budski

 

Try answering a question for just once.

I think it's obvious at this point in time from all of the evasion, that you have absolutely no idea what the person you had the conversation with supports.

You haven't asked a question.

You've made a series of statements requesting information, mingled with some thinly veiled abuse, a couple of strawmen and a lack of comprehension regarding the basic premise of the discussion.

I have given you the information you need. If you cannot understand it then it's your problem, not mine.

Stop making assumptions, read and try to understand.

Interesting read and you bring up good points. I was baptized so that "makes" me a Christian but I have never been told to study the Bible but to make a choice myself which I am grateful for.
I have always been curious and thoughtful so it was only natural (or was I destined?) to learn about the world in a physical sense but also study history and religion quite thoroughly to gain a better understanding of my heritage.
It didn't take long for me to come to the conclusion that the God I believe in is a just one and we are blessed with the gift of choice to both decide what actions to take and choose what to have believe.

The God I believe in wants nothing more for me than to learn the truths of existence and live a righteous life. That means; do not judge or condemn. Do not be selfish and do not steal, betray, hurt or murder (obviously) but also to do my best to tend to the poor and those in need; if not by charity, at least lend a supporting shoulder for them to cry upon or an ear for them to speak to.

If anything is right than it is to make the choice to be righteous regardless of what anybody says.
If you doubt an act in your heart and sense it is morally controversial; then it is probably not right.

Quite simple philosophy but not always easy to practice.

Originally posted by budski

Originally posted by jjkenobi
As far as I can tell the sole point of this post is to try to correlate someone being a Christian and being against having their taxes raised and distributed by the government. Complete nonsense.

Then you would be incorrect.

The level of reading comprehension has really gone downhill here over the last few years.

Just say it, Budski.

Do you live off of your government?

Are you a veteran suffering from PTSD and needs support?

There's no harm in that as long as you're not spending all of your money out at bars.

Originally posted by ABeing
Interesting read and you bring up good points. I was baptized so that "makes" me a Christian but I have never been told to study the Bible but to make a choice myself which I am grateful for.
I have always been curious and thoughtful so it was only natural (or was I destined?) to learn about the world in a physical sense but also study history and religion quite thoroughly to gain a better understanding of my heritage.
It didn't take long for me to come to the conclusion that the God I believe in is a just one and we are blessed with the gift of choice to both decide what actions to take and choose what to have believe.

The God I believe in wants nothing more for me than to learn the truths of existence and live a righteous life. That means; do not judge or condemn. Do not be selfish and do not steal, betray, hurt or murder (obviously) but also to do my best to tend to the poor and those in need; if not by charity, at least lend a supporting shoulder for them to cry upon or an ear for them to speak to.

If anything is right than it is to make the choice to be righteous regardless of what anybody says.
If you doubt an act in your heart and sense it is morally controversial; then it is probably not right.

Quite simple philosophy but not always easy to practice.

Thank you for your input, and a very good post.

As you say, help comes in many forms but in the world we live in (I'm generalizing a bit here, sorry) help always seems to mean money to many people.

Unfortunately, selfishness and the other things you mentioned also come in many forms, and people try so terribly hard to justify them rather than spending their energy thinking (and acting) on ways to be a better christian.

I was raised in the catholic church, as I mentioned, so I have a reasonable grounding in not only the bible, but also religious dogma.
It was this church where I first saw evidence of not only the hypocrisy of which I spoke in the OP, but many other forms of it as well.

I would like to say I respect your beliefs, even though they are not my own, but more than that your insight into trying to live a life as best you can whilst also recognising that not everything is about money, and that help comes in many forms.
I doff my metaphorical cap to you.

reply to post by budski

many christians are not real "christ followers", you will know a christian by their actions, not their words.

gandhi said it best "i like their christ, but i do not like their christian".

today's christian is willfully ignorant of the atrocities committed so that they can have clothes, computers, cell phones, large houses, etc. companies like apple, microsoft, and nike use sweatshops to produce their goods so that they can make a larger profit.

social programs are a grey area, as insurance has artificially increased the cost of medical care, yet an idea like social security was brilliant (until the politicians saw how much money was in the fund and robbed it).

if you're looking for someone who is perfect, look at christ. the whole point of his self-sacrifice was that we aren't capable of living perfect lives. you are right that the church has become hypocritical and self serving, but it is a sign of the times.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by budski

 

many christians are not real "christ followers", you will know a christian by their actions, not their words.

gandhi said it best "i like their christ, but i do not like their christian".

today's christian is willfully ignorant of the atrocities committed so that they can have clothes, computers, cell phones, large houses, etc. companies like apple, microsoft, and nike use sweatshops to produce their goods so that they can make a larger profit.

social programs are a grey area, as insurance has artificially increased the cost of medical care, yet an idea like social security was brilliant (until the politicians saw how much money was in the fund and robbed it).

if you're looking for someone who is perfect, look at christ. the whole point of his self-sacrifice was that we aren't capable of living perfect lives. you are right that the church has become hypocritical and self serving, but it is a sign of the times.

Some very good points, but I would like to add that there are some, possibly many, who call themselves christians because they attend church, and yet are completely un-christian in almost every other aspect of their lives.
No one is asking anyone else to be perfect, but to be wilfully unchristian because a person attends church is perhaps the worst hypocrisy.

reply to post by budski

Some very good points, but I would like to add that there are some, possibly many, who call themselves christians because they attend church, and yet are completely un-christian in almost every other aspect of their lives.

Yes, but we're not talking about "every other aspect of their lives" on this thread are we?

We're talking about political affiliations and government programs, remember?

If not, maybe you should have removed that portion from your original post.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by budski

 

Some very good points, but I would like to add that there are some, possibly many, who call themselves christians because they attend church, and yet are completely un-christian in almost every other aspect of their lives.

Yes, but we're not talking about "every other aspect of their lives" on this thread are we?

We're talking about political affiliations and government programs, remember?

If not, maybe you should have removed that portion from your original post.

I would have thought you could grasp the concept that these things are interrelated.

I remain disappointed in this regard, especially as government programmes were not mentioned, but yet again assumed by you.

You also seem to be willfully ignoring part 2 of the 2 part OP posted, and seem unable to understand that during an adult discussion the conversation naturally evolves.

I had hoped that you could contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.
I remain disappointed in this regard as well.

reply to post by budski


You're the one who mentioned politics and "social welfare".

You derailed your own thread when you tried to change the subject to just Christians acting non-Christian.

reply to post by budski

I had hoped that you could contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.

I was hoping for the same, but you contributed nothing but an opinion about non-Christian behavior.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by budski

 

You're the one who mentioned politics and "social welfare".

You derailed your own thread when you tried to change the subject to just Christians acting non-Christian.

The fact that you cannot see how these things relate to each other speaks volumes.

Social welfare is a concept, and in no way can be called an absolute, however what can be seen as an absolute is the inherent selfishness that certain political systems encourage and actually thrive upon.

This in turn spills over into other aspects of peoples lives, until selfishness and a disregard for fellow beings becomes the norm, yet at the same time some still insist on calling themselves christians, when their actions are the complete opposite of such.

So, you see, one example of selfish behaviour and disregard for fellow beings naturally leads to other peoples thoughts and experiences regarding this.

I shouldn't really have to explain this, but you seem to be having some issues comprehending the nature of discussion and how they can evolve into different area's, so I thought I'd help you understand.

If you think the thread is being derailed, hit that alert button you see up the top there.
And good luck with that.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by WhoKnows100

 

Are you trying to tell us you talk to god?

Pics or it didn't happen...

I talk to Him all the time. I ask about everything, I ask Him to show me my own hypocrisy, my own faults, I ask Him to show me His Character, I ask Him whatever His Spirit prompts me to understand. Anything and everything as I'm led.

Your post is causing me heartache for a very specific reason, and that is I can sense that you truly care about people. But....your accusation of hypocrisy MAY be unfounded in the case of your conversation. And it may not be. Without understanding the subject which brought about the conversation, there really is no way to determine hypocrisy.

But your view of Jesus Christ is utterly false. And my heartache comes from knowing that you judged that person from an unfounded position. Let me show you how:

1)

The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless.

Victim = fatherless
Whilst you see the orphan, I have been led to understand that orphan not only means the physical orphan but victims. If you are a person who runs a program for orphans yet takes bribes as a judge, thereby denying justice to a victim, are you really caring for orphans as God commanded?

2)
You see the physical widow getting a state pension from a social program as GOOD. (example)

But you cannot see this

The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help  1 Timothy 5:5

The communist state oppresses its population and demands loyalty and worship and sole provider status. Anything that gets between it and the citizen is outlawed. Socialism, whilst seemingly providing for people, insidiously puts itself as God in the lives of those it professes to care for. Look at the above scripture, the widow 'taken care of' by the state has no need and guess what happens? She stops putting her hope in God and stops praying for His help. Why? The beast takes care of her. Her children no longer do so as they abandon their responsibility. Felow Christians who used to do the Lord's work of sharing and caring for her are pushed out. It's her prayers for help and care that are met by fellow Christians through Our God. This is how His blessings come, through the body of Christ. But it is the state that steps in between man and God. It is the same as the teachers and leaders in Judea who put themselves as the ultimate authority over their subjects - this cutting off the citizens from their Creator. Instead of the fear of God the citizens lived in fear of being thrown out of the synagogue. How crazy!

Windward (sp?) made a comment about conservatives wanting to cut social programs as it was some great evil. But He doesn't understand that Our God works with humbled hearts and contrite spirits, and pressure upon a person has two different outcomes - one cries out to the Lord for mercy and the other gets so stinking mad that he revolts.

Jesus Christ didn't preach a 'brotherhood of man'. Be ye separate and holy and dedicated to the Lord, doing His Will not your own will. Go into a town - preach the Kingdom of God and shake the dust off your feet if they won't accept the good news. Go and sin no more. Go out and show mercy as He is merciful. Go out and sing the praises of a glorious Creator and God! Follow Him. And that all judgement belongs to Him who will judge both the living and dead and that His wrath would come upon the ungodly.

And understanding this, your friends lack of support for social program's (if that was the topic) may have been entirely scripturally sound and yet you charge hypocrisy. But without further clarification from you, who knows? Perhaps as you view the slaves making Nikes as victims, you'll come to view your fellow citizens as the victims of tyrannical God-hating and God-rejecting men who are under the selfish compulsion to be seen as your god and master, and in order to make such a thing possible, they managed to convince you that social programs are the construct of men who simply love you. No they don't, they knew the means to destroy Faith. 90%+ today look to the state for all their needs. We don't even realise that we would need no military if those same people looked to God for protection and their needs instead.. That is victimisation by wicked men and when they can get us to forget all of Our Creator's promises, we are truly their victims.

reply to post by budski


Likewise, I find the most joy in my every day life studying all that comes my way, and it just so happens that I found myself in a major crisis in my life after tolerating and enduring much injustice and suffering that I prayed for the very first time in my life for my very life itself and well.. Some people may call it "agape" happened and then my life turned around completely and now I am looking into the history of religion. A fascinating field of research! Wherever I turn my attention there is another question to ponder. Most enlightening and confusing at the same time.

But, that is also why it feels much better to simply put my fate in the hands of the Almighty so I don't put something so delicate in the wrong hands by accident as I am still learning much about all of this. Interesting times we are living in, right? :-)

May your life be full of love, light and joy!

reply to post by WhoKnows100


Thank you for your interesting post, and some well made points.

However, socialism/communism by itself takes away nothing: as with religion it is what man makes of it that is the problem.

I do not share your view of Jesus however, and regard him mostly as a minor historical figure that is the subject of a mythology that has grown up around him, mainly due to the need for a replacement for a failing roman empire.
This can be easily seen in the ecumenical councils of constantinople, where men decided what should or shouldn't be included in the new testament.

In this instance I was indicating how others belief in Jesus seems to me, and am not trying to paint or portray any picture of him due to the reasons already stated.

Your view of god is your own, and I respect your beliefs, I would ask that you do me the courtesy of respecting mine.

Originally posted by ABeing
reply to post by budski

 

Likewise, I find the most joy in my every day life studying all thar comes my way, and it just do happens that I found myself in a major crisis in my life after tolerating and enduring much injustice and suffering that I prayed for the very first time in my life for my very life itself and well.. Some people call it "agape" and then my life turned around completely and now I am looking into the history of religion. A fascinating field of research! Wherever I turn my attention there is another question to ponder. Most enlightening and confusing at the same time.

Sorry to just pick out one part of your post, but to me this is the very essence of life itself: questioning, understanding and then more questioning!

My opinion on the reasons for this may differ from yours, but in my view are just as valid, after all, it's not the destination that matters but rather it is the journey itself.

reply to post by budski

Some very good points, but I would like to add that there are some, possibly many, who call themselves christians because they attend church, and yet are completely un-christian in almost every other aspect of their lives. No one is asking anyone else to be perfect, but to be wilfully unchristian because a person attends church is perhaps the worst hypocrisy.

very true. going to church and being baptized won't save you, or make you a christian. think about the thief on the cross, he probably never went to church, and he probably wasn't baptized, but because of his faith in the end, he was saved.

i have stopped going to church because i find it to be more like a social club than a place where any and all can come and feel loved. i pray and think on what it is to be like christ often, and i have found that my nonattendance at church has increased my awareness of the plight of others and i've grown in my faith through finding things out for myself, instead of being told.

I personally view Christianity as the following of the established "church" of Christianity which I see as being the church the was created by the state for control reasons. And I see those very same issues interwoven with the viewpoints of most all whom claim to be Christians. I view their "God" as one of which rules the people thru fear. This is the god of the old testament in my eyes, not the teachings nor life of Jesus of Nazereth. And I'm not even going to get into my not taking what is written in that bible as truth in as much as I view the spirit of love that I personally take The person of Jesus to have tried to convey to others. I will profess at this point in this life that I don't view myself as one who believes anything, but more so cares to live this life to either exemplify that which is "right" or be of help to my fellow man. If one would view this as whatever or however they may, this is their choice. Some may have come to see my point of view as atheistic perhaps. I won't confer that nor will I oppose the label. I just don't care how I'm perceived as much as how I benefit the needs and lives of others. I AM a conspiracy theorist and that comes ith the personal choice of believing no one, no way, no-thing. I am that I am....nothing more, nothing less. Nd yet, no matter how you take this, It is what it is.

reply to post by budski

So, you see, one example of selfish behaviour and disregard for fellow beings naturally leads to other peoples thoughts and experiences regarding this.

If you think a political affiliation/system that brings government abuse of spending to light has anything to do with promoting selfishness, you're confused.

OP, your puzzle is missing one MASSIVE piece:

Satan and his "elite" gangsters are the ones BEHIND religion.

Religion has become nothing more than a massive mind control operation.

Even Christianity has been almost completely Illuminati infiltrated to the point where it does not in any way resemble the early Church.

"...the goal is to infiltrate it with their compromising philosophies and attempt to destroy the Church from within." Infiltration of the Church

The entire agenda here is to malign God, Jesus, and the truth.

This is the one single thing that very few comprehend and I believe it is the reason that so few see the real picture.

Originally posted by borntowatch
Its so tragic when some people hold Christians up to be perfect human beings beyond sin.
What a boring sensationalist thread.
Christians are just normal people with the same issues as every other person, trying very hard to live like Christ in a broken world.
Christians are saved by Gods grace, not charity works.
If Christians were perfect they wouldnt have needed Jesus.

If this justifies your comment "Christians are hypocrites" then well done, stating the bloody obvious.

Hey, I am a Christian and I am a hypocrite....happy now?

But Grace is from my point of view a lie told by Paul to build a church not to save souls. Saving souls by making them evolve and be the best them they can be (depending on circumstances). Do you really think heaven will be heaven for long if you let in the egoistic people who only care for themselves and their need and will not give up any comfort to help others? We all create the future that we deserve by our actions or inaction. Sorry do not want to be connected at all to people who cannot do the right thing because they are to concerned about material possessions to the point that they enslave other people to get thing by manipulating the financial system that humans have created. Being a parasite is a very dangerous thing to be. You will one day have to pay for everything that have been created for you. Justice must be served and the piper must be payed. What you create for others you have to experiance for yourself.

Follow the synchronicity and let yourself be guided by the unconscious if you are ready for it.