Japan tsunami survivors turn to exorcists for help- Many claim they are seeing ghosts of victims

Originally posted by Millions
You shouldn't criticise the strength of other people's arguments when you are coming out with this kind of half-assed stuff.

Ok

The presence of psychotic symptoms in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) has already been recognized. Using the Structured Clinical Interview Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, we searched for and assessed psychotic symptoms in 91 males suffering from combat-related PTSD. Hallucinations and delusions were present in 20% of patients.

www.ingentaconnect.com...

Among combat veterans with PTSD, 30% to 40% report auditory or visual hallucinations and/or delusions.

source

scholar.google.com...

Did anyone see ghosts after 9/11, 7/7, any of the previous tsunami's, any of the massive earthquakes in the last few centuries, Pompei, Nagasaki, Dresden, Hamburg, Omaha, Pearl Harbour ,The London blitz, the Allahabad stampede, the Titanic, the Hindenburg disaster etc etc?

Surely all those all add to the same levels of hysteria, PTSD etc... I know it's very hard to compare each and every case with each other, but they all involved massive losses of life in short spaces of time and I don't remember 'ghost sightings'.

So why this in particular? Is it Japanese culture? Or something else?

reply to post by mr-lizard

I know it's very hard to compare each and every case with each other, but they all involved massive losses of life in short spaces of time and I don't remember 'ghost sightings'.

You are making the same argument to ignorance that the OP did.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

I know it's very hard to compare each and every case with each other, but they all involved massive losses of life in short spaces of time and I don't remember 'ghost sightings'.

You are making the same argument to ignorance that the OP did.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well I don't think it is ignorant when I say I don't remember mass 'ghost sightings', from all the varied reports and stories of the aforementioned events, I don't recall a single instance.

Again, how is that ignorant?

reply to post by mr-lizard

It's not ignorant. It's an argument to ignorance. A logical fallacy.
"I didn't hear any stories, so it's safe to assume there weren't any."

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

It's not ignorant. It's an argument to ignorance. A logical fallacy.
"I didn't hear any stories, so it's safe to assume there weren't any."

edit on 3/8/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Misquoting me now eh?

I have friends and family who are interested in historical events and also incidents regarding the paranormal and none of them have ever mentioned anything of the sort. I didn't say 'it's safe to assume there weren't any' , I simply said I haven't heard of any.

If I'm being logically improper, then you're being assumptive.

Surely all those all add to the same levels of hysteria, PTSD etc... I know it's very hard to compare each and every case with each other, but they all involved massive losses of life in short spaces of time and I don't remember 'ghost sightings'.

Do you remember any? Genuine question, you could educate me instead of misquoting me.

reply to post by mr-lizard

No. I didn't quote you at all. How can I misquote?

Here is a direct quote. You said this:

So why this in particular? Is it Japanese culture? Or something else?

It seemed you were assuming there were no such experiences related to the other events you mentioned.

If I misunderstood, I apologize. But aside from that, it is my thought, that it may indeed be a cultural influence.

reply to post by Phage


No need to apologise, crossed wires is all.

Just asking questions really. Trying to figure out if indeed large areas of disaster have shown previous sightings.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Or someone stuck a strange UBB code or character in their post.
It started here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Science works. No ghosts.

edit on 3/7/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Laughed so hard at this post. The irony was absolutely delicious.

OT: Not ready to say these are ghosts, as in the spirits of dead people. Phage's point is quite valid, but of course, believers will only listen to that which confirms their own personal belief in the subject. Not really enough info to go by, and making an opinion based on such little information isn't very wise, imo. Deny ignornace.

This is quite strange. The possibilities, imo, are as follows: this hysteria that seems to be relatively widespread is due to mental issues, likely PTSD related. Or, there truly are paranormal events going on due to certain factors, probably associated with the mass deaths, which were quick and likely violent. Ghosts do in fact exist, as myself and my family can attest to, as can thousands of other individuals and families. I'm sure there are many who do not believe, but this is just because you have not had any experiences. I hope those who are adamant about the non-existence of the paranormal really have some crazy ghost stuff happen to them, and then they can apologize, lol.

But, exorcisms are not designed to rid any place of spirits. This will not work, as I'm sure if there are ghosts they are the spirits of deceased people. Exorcisms are only for extremely evil spirits, and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, depending on the faith and strength of the person performing the ritual, and the strength of the evil spirit. I will say that it is not only the Chrstian rite of exorcism that can succeed in these cases, but also the rites of other groups, like Native Americans, etc...How or why it works I have no clue, but the truth seems to be that it does. Ignoring the substantial amount of direct, not circumstantial, evidence found in sighting reports for various topics is just foolish, and completely unscientific.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Ok, so... from now on if you see ghosts or apparitions, people, you are suffering from PTSD. Got it?

Who said that? Not I. That would be a straw man argument.
And your argument from ignorance about Hiroshima is still an argument from ignorance.
That's two logical fallacies. But who's counting.

the apparent fact that more than one are seeing ghosts

And the actual fact that the Japanese have strong cultural influences regarding ancestral ghosts (check out Obon). Traumatic experiences could well result in hallucinations which draw from those cultural influences.

edit on 3/7/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

hey, buddy, until you've viividly experienced the paranormal, sometimes in the presence of others who see or hear the exact same thing, there's no compelling reason to believe. 'seeng is believing', as they say, if you trust your own perception and grounded sanity. i do think hardcore materialist 'skeptics' (such as those who make their livings this way like shermer or randi) tend to have subliminal filters to block unwanted perceptions. still, i'd like to record on camera (with i.r. and u.v.) some of you spending a week alone in one of those houses considered uninhabitable due to extreme negative energies--would be fascinating either way.

Originally posted by Pinke
I might go against Phage on this one, except the article itself doesn't really present a compelling case for an epidemic of sightings; it only presents a handful of cases. What it does present is a slow news day!

These are desolate quiet areas that are heavily associated with tradgedy and loss. I'd be worried if they didn't make people feel uneasy, it's in our nature to escape danger and horror. The news story is certainly creepy.

I guess I'm just not sure ghosts as a general rule are deceased people, because the vast majority of apparitions that are seen are exactly what we would expect to see based on our culture / knowledge etc ... Ghosts (to my understanding, please correct me if I missed something) have never given us unique knowledge of our past.

Guess the other feeling I have is ... if humans can see them, they must interact with light in some way and therefore can be photographed ... yet they are not. Evidence here would at least point to them being images contained within our minds or at least percieved with something other than physical light.

I'd personally believe the vast majority are contained within our own minds but maybe am wrong and now and then one is 'put' there.

honey, do you live in a cave? more honestly anomolous photos exist, many with clear images, than you could ever count. and yes, spirits have communicated information to people, such as where things are hidden. a great deal of kinetic activity occurs as well, including such dramatic instances as dishes flying out of cupboards e.g. now some apparitions are just loops of events, referred to as 'non-intelligent', while others interact. some are apparently 'non'human' in nature, apparently being formed from the accumulation of negative energies or coming from darker realms.

i'd be skeptical of these things too (and am always openminded about the veracity of any single account before evaluating evidence) unless i had personally experienced things that forced me to accept their existence.

don't mean to be snippy; what your assumptions tell me is that you've probably never had any particular interest in the subject, therfore don't know the canon of evidence. if interested, check it out.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Did anyone see ghosts after 9/11, 7/7, any of the previous tsunami's, any of the massive earthquakes in the last few centuries, Pompei, Nagasaki, Dresden, Hamburg, Omaha, Pearl Harbour ,The London blitz, the Allahabad stampede, the Titanic, the Hindenburg disaster etc etc?

Surely all those all add to the same levels of hysteria, PTSD etc... I know it's very hard to compare each and every case with each other, but they all involved massive losses of life in short spaces of time and I don't remember 'ghost sightings'.

So why this in particular? Is it Japanese culture? Or something else?

why don't you just google it and see?

Originally posted by ouvertaverite
honey, do you live in a cave?

Is more an apartment type thing ... is by shore. It's kind of pretty except near highway.

more honestly anomolous photos exist, many with clear images, than you could ever count.

Not investigated all photos ever made EVAR ... but I got real fascinated ages ago by them, and majority of them are double exposures or things of this nature.

Recently some of them have got betterish but that's only because adobe after effects is on torrent web sites now.

and yes, spirits have communicated information to people, such as where things are hidden.

I haven't seen any repeatable instances of this. These things always seem to fail soon as myself or control methods enter the room.

I've had personal experiences too but none that can't be explained in other ways.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by gunshooter

 

No, I dont think its impossible for ptsd to be a cause.

Good. I didn't say it's impossible it was ghosts.
But I don't think it was.

No, you did- on page 3, you said "Science works, No ghosts"- pretty definitive.

Oh, and the 'skeptoid' link you posted, as to their opinion on the Schole experiments, where you say "Scole, are you kidding? Sucked in by frauds.". I would have thought that a scientific man would realise that, because something might be possible, that doesnt mean that it is actually a fact- as in, yes, Penn & Teller probably could have faked some of this, but that doesnt mean that the Scole members were all talented stage magicians. And yet you say "I prefer not to argue from ignorance.Produce the data.Then we'll talk.". Certainly no 'data' in that link, or in any of your other posts- just opinions, which you are entitled to as much as mine or anyone elses.

On the thread topic- a chilling thought indeed. If it is just a case of PTSD, then we would be having the same phenomenon all around the world, whenever there was great loss of life. As was previously posted, you dont hear of this following the atomic strikes in WWII, or in Manhattan after 9/11 etc etc. You do, however, hear of apparitions around areas of fatal road crashes......

reply to post by Thunda

No, you did- on page 3, you said "Science works, No ghosts"- pretty definitive.

Perhaps you should refer to the post I was replying to.

Oh, and the 'skeptoid' link you posted, as to their opinion on the Schole experiments, where you say "Scole, are you kidding? Sucked in by frauds.".

Yes, the Scole "investigators" were sucked in by frauds.

just opinions, which you are entitled to as much as mine or anyone elses.

I couldn't agree more.

Really? The scole investigators were 'sucked in by frauds'? Is there some data for this, or just your opinion?

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Did anyone see ghosts after 9/11, 7/7, any of the previous tsunami's, any of the massive earthquakes in the last few centuries, Pompei, Nagasaki, Dresden, Hamburg, Omaha, Pearl Harbour ,The London blitz, the Allahabad stampede, the Titanic, the Hindenburg disaster etc etc?

Surely all those all add to the same levels of hysteria, PTSD etc... I know it's very hard to compare each and every case with each other, but they all involved massive losses of life in short spaces of time and I don't remember 'ghost sightings'.

So why this in particular? Is it Japanese culture? Or something else?

There's a show called Ghosts: Caught on Camera and they had a few stories about 9-11, particularly one about a NYPD cop who worked through the rubble of the twin towers. He described seeing several ghosts and took several pictures.

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

reply to post by texasgirl


Well, if he had pictures, that certainly suggests a phenomenon outside post traumatic stress or any other perception issue.

I just posted that its well known that people report apparitions being seen (or auditory phenomenon) at the scene of fatal road crashes, or at airfields where there have been fatal accidents. I think the point he was making that, if its just a result of PTSD, then it would be a much more common occurrence, happening to people who had witnessed great loss of life at or near the place they see the phenomenon. Usually, these 'area specific' cases are witnessed by people who werent there during the original, fatal event, ruling out PTSD altogether (or PTSD brought on by the event).