CERN: Higgs-Boson edges closer to total confirmation

CERN announced today (paraphrase) that the announcement of the discovery of the Higg-Boson is closer to factual confirmation. They say that the Higgs, which has to have no spin, has either spin-zero (does that mean no spin?) or something called spin-two. Here's the link to the CERN announcement.

public.web.cern.ch...

Physicists speaking today at the Moriond conference in La Thuile, Italy, have announced that the new particle discovered at CERN last year is looking more and more like a Higgs boson. However, more analysis is still required before a definitive statement can be made. The key to a positive identification of the particle is a detailed analysis of its properties and the way that it interacts with other particles. Since the announcement last July, much more data has been analysed, and these properties are becoming clearer.

The key property that will allow us to say whether or not it is a Higgs particle is called spin. If this particle has spin-zero, then it is a Higgs particle. If not, then it is something different, possibly linked to the way gravity works. All the analysis conducted so far strongly indicates spin-zero, but is not yet able to rule out entirely the possibility that the particle has spin-two.

Here's an interesting explanation of particle spin by a fellow named Markus Ehrenfried:

www.markusehrenfried.de...

Perusual I don't have much clue but look forward to reading intelligent replies from people that do

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Perusual I don't have much clue but look forward to reading intelligent replies from people that do

Me either, at least not enough to discuss it as if I did know. In looking on the web most of the "hits" are for a band named "Spin Zero". Perhaps the drummer knows.

reply to post by Aleister


This link could provide you with some answers.


Advanced Quantum Mechanics PDF

reply to post by Aleister


In Other Words: Give us more funding so we can bull# you some more.
What a bunch of queer minded freaks.
We need Clean Energy not a bunch of " I Promise to Pay You Tuesday For a Hamburger Today",
Snake Juice Crap.

How Many BILLIONS has that cost already?

www.nytimes.com...

I really feel terrible about busting chops about this when we bailed out the Banks for Trillions.
So, Nevermind, I respect Science. Carry On.

Was doing good with the first link then got brave and click the second link

Only to read first 3 page and got a headack

Here's a Huffington Post article on the new data and announcement:

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Last July scientists with the world's largest atom smasher, the $10 billion Large Hadron Collider on the Swiss-French border, announced finding a particle they described as Higgs-like, but wouldn't say it was conclusively the particle. Now thousands of checks show them even closer.

"It looks more and more like a Higgs boson," said Gagnon after an update presented Wednesday at a conference in the Italian Alps.

Gagnon compared finding the Higgs to identifying a specific person. This looks, talks, and sings like a Higgs, but scientists want to make sure it dances like the Higgs before they shout "Eureka."

She said there is only one last thing the particle they found could also be: a graviton. That's another subatomic particle associated with gravitational fields, not mass.

By checking the spin of the particle, scientists will be able to tell if it is a Higgs boson, which is far more likely, or a graviton. If it has no internal spin, it's the Higgs boson; if it has a lot of spin it's a graviton.

A Higgs (apparantly the overwhelming favorite) or a graviton (far less chance) - either way it's a winner. Apparantly the Higgs is all but confirmed, they've just got to dig its spin state out of the data.

It's in there someplace (a pic of a 2011 CERN LHC experiment);

Is it just me or does it seem a bigger benefit practically speaking if it IS a graviton. I don't know a lot about either particle but any benefit the HB might give seems theoretical or just a confirmation of a theory. Now if we could discover (and manipulate) the basic particle of gravity, I can foresee many practical applications...

Originally posted by 35Foxtrot
Is it just me or does it seem a bigger benefit practically speaking if it IS a graviton. I don't know a lot about either particle but any benefit the HB might give seems theoretical or just a confirmation of a theory. Now if we could discover (and manipulate) the basic particle of gravity, I can foresee many practical applications...

You are right in either case. They seem to be saying that they are trying to dot all their "T's" and cross all their "i's" but that it is very likely the Higgs with zero-spin rather than the graviton. But yes, if the graviton is found, then I would think it would be a very useful particle or particle state to play with and experiment with. Yet the same is true for the Higgs. Since there is a still a very slight chance of this being a graviton, what are some of the practical applications (aside from moving stones to build new pyramids) you were thinking of? Thanks.

First of all I would like to say that I am not a scientist.... but curious about the search for that "god particle". The words I wrote are about the way I understand it.

You know what I consider weird in this whole Higgs adventure....?

The fact that "they", the involved scientist are spinning to long around the matter. First they were optimistic and was it a matter of time and did it all depend on the exact amount of energy for the "collision" in their search. In the end of 2012 the energy gap was closing steadily.....the Higgs boson would soon pop-out the debrie and case closed.

Now "they" aren't so sure and is the identification of the boson not so easy....for some reason. If you'd ask me they can not find it. They see other stuff flying around and spent all their time sticking the expected Higgs properties on these new finds. But each attempt doesn't fit and fails...

IMHO they have completed all the collisions possible for this specific boson and did not find the expected Higgs boson within these collisions. Now they have great difficulty to admit it to the world that it isn't there where they expected it would be. For as long as they have unknowns to study caused by all the collisions performed they will say the discovery is forthcoming.

The Higgs boson not finding will have great consequences for how scientists understand nature at the sub-atomic scale. It will mean that the assumed sub-atomic model isn't right and can be thrown into the bin. Therefore they must be damn sure they didn't miss it somewhere...

On the otherhand if the Higgs doens't exist.....scientist will be forced to think other thoughts..and that will bring us new surprises.

Discovery & manipulation of the Higgs would be more valuable than the Graviton. It would enable cancelling out mass and thus creating FTL drives and sending probes to other star systems at the speed of light or beyond. Massless objects can do that without violating the laws of physics.

Of course that probably won't happen anytime soon because the energy needed to remove the Higgs from a space probe would be more than we could generate with portable means. Still it would be a step closer to something big

reply to post by zatara

That's an interesting analysis. To me it seems more likely that the people "in charge of knowing these things" know for sure that it's the Higgs, but want to remove any doubt and nail it down 99.9+ percent. If it wasn't, and they were just spinning their wheels in hopes that everyone goes away and they won't have to announce that it isn't the Higgs, wouldn't this have leaked? There are dozens if not hundreds of people directly involved in the discovery, clarification, and further study of the particle (or particle state). Some of them, as principled scientists and honest human beings (a rare thing, I'll admit), would just tell the world or at least their hairdresser. That the entire thing has fallen apart, and there is no Higgs, and everyone is hiding that fact, seems a little less feasible than the team just making as sure as they can. But your theory may pan out after all, we shall see - and I think I see a Higgs right, over, there.....

Originally posted by DarkSecret
Discovery & manipulation of the Higgs would be more valuable than the Graviton. It would enable cancelling out mass and thus creating FTL drives and sending probes to other star systems at the speed of light or beyond. Massless objects can do that without violating the laws of physics.

Of course that probably won't happen anytime soon because the energy needed to remove the Higgs from a space probe would be more than we could generate with portable means. Still it would be a step closer to something big

Nice! I haven't heard it put like that before. Even if part of your answer is eventually possible, Gene Roddenberry's visions of the future seem very old school.

reply to post by DarkSecret


OK, that's cool. I didn't know that HB manipulation could lead to that. So, yeah, FTl trumps anything I was thinking of, like ( to answer the other poster who asked me ) reactionless type propulsion, "inertial dampeners" like in all sci-Fi stories so that graviton drive wouldn't crush us into jelly when we really got up there in the acceleration dept., artificial gravity on spaceships to cancel out the negative effects of low-g on long trips, a really comfortable adjustable-g bed, Etc...

Originally posted by Aleister

Originally posted by DarkSecret
Discovery & manipulation of the Higgs would be more valuable than the Graviton. It would enable cancelling out mass and thus creating FTL drives and sending probes to other star systems at the speed of light or beyond. Massless objects can do that without violating the laws of physics.

Of course that probably won't happen anytime soon because the energy needed to remove the Higgs from a space probe would be more than we could generate with portable means. Still it would be a step closer to something big

Nice! I haven't heard it put like that before. Even if part of your answer is eventually possible, Gene Roddenberry's visions of the future seem very old school.

Well I think a space probe made out of basic materials (Silicon for the computer, Carbon for the shell) would be possible to de-higgs. But humans and any complex organic molecules would probably be destroyed.

So within 50 years we'll see a probe being sent to the nearest star with a Higgs drive. Humans will probably have to wait another 200, if ever, considering the major complications associated with keeping them alive in space...

Originally posted by 35Foxtrot
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

OK, that's cool. I didn't know that HB manipulation could lead to that. So, yeah, FTl trumps anything I was thinking of, like ( to answer the other poster who asked me ) reactionless type propulsion, "inertial dampeners" like in all sci-Fi stories so that graviton drive wouldn't crush us into jelly when we really got up there in the acceleration dept., artificial gravity on spaceships to cancel out the negative effects of low-g on long trips, a really comfortable adjustable-g bed, Etc...

Well, this stuff isn't mash either. So if "they" can't decide which thing this is, but have to nail down the spin to spin-zero or spin-two, are they saying that the graviton is also in the same energy range as the Higgs? That they expect to find the graviton as well within a couple/few years?

reply to post by DarkSecret

I'm probably out of the loop on this topic, but that's the first I've read the term "de-Higgs". You make a good case for the best-possible-result potential of this discovery.

Originally posted by Aleister
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

I'm probably out of the loop on this topic, but that's the first I've read the term "de-Higgs". You make a good case for the best-possible-result potential of this discovery.

I just came up with "de-Higgs" just sounds so natural

I think a probe the size of a water bottle which would contain a camera and the computer plus something much bigger as a power source would be what we'll send. Although I'm assuming we will have to wait the full round trip of light to the nearest star until we can get the radio waves back... because information can't travel FTL even if our probe does - or it would create a paradox.

Originally posted by DarkSecret

Originally posted by Aleister
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

I'm probably out of the loop on this topic, but that's the first I've read the term "de-Higgs". You make a good case for the best-possible-result potential of this discovery.

I just came up with "de-Higgs" just sounds so natural

I think a probe the size of a water bottle which would contain a camera and the computer plus something much bigger as a power source would be what we'll send. Although I'm assuming we will have to wait the full round trip of light to the nearest star until we can get the radio waves back... because information can't travel FTL even if our probe does - or it would create a paradox.

De-Higgs is a keeper, and tis a proud thread to have it appear. A probe the size of a water bottle! By the time such a probe would be launched it will contain the latest in quantum computers and miniturization, graphene technology, and maybe the signals "coming back" will be already attuned to quantum disconnectiveness and reach whatever receiver is set up to receive them instantly. Might as well stretch the envelope out as far as it can go and let the science catch up - and I'm sure this only pushes the envelope a little way open. What else woud the probe contain?