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Nukes in 1626? Beijing explosion created mushroom cloud, stripped everyone naked

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posted on Mar, 10 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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Vimanas-the "UFOS" of ancient India. Recorded in the Vimanika Shastra which is undoubtedly a modern version based on earlier texts, these craft along with missiles (brahmastras) and NUCLEAR WARFARE makes the pages of the most ancient scriptures of India including the Ramayana and Mahabharata which are thousands of years old.




posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by diqiushiwojia
reply to post by Bedlam
 


I admire your expertise in nuclear warfare and completely understand the position you have taken (that it was technically impossible to make such weapons at the time). However, I do think 'miracles' can happen. They might have been assisted by external forces, or there could have been a much easier way to make nukes that modern science hasn't discovered yet. This is where we'd have to agree to disagree.

The post I was referring to was the one that started with the 'scientific evidence' section. I'd like to know your opinion on the incident itself, and whether it could have resulted from a nuclear explosion if it had taken place in the 20th or 21th century. Thanks.


LOL - I love it : "yeah, yeah okay I know it's scientifically impossible for there to have been a nuclear explosion, but I want to believe it so much that in the absolute certainty that it couldn't possibly have happened, I'm going to suggest instead that it did because of a "miracle" or "help from external (i.e ET) forces".

LOLOL - THIS is why ATS is completely NUTS.

Ignore the evidence, focus on the ludicrous.

Deny ignorance, embrace stupidity.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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reply to post by Power_Semi
 


So far, Bedlam has only been saying that they didn't have the technology to do it. He didn't say that the phenomena that occurred at the time of the explosion were non-nuclear.

I am not convinced that it was the gunpowder, meteor, earthquake or tornado yet. From the sources I've read, focusing only on the explosion itself, nukes still come closest.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 06:58 AM
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The obvious points to gun powder. When you hear hoof beats, expect horses not zebras.
Star and flag though. You took the time and effort to make a well researched thread, while many just throw up a Youtube video and say "Whaddya think?"



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by OOOOOO


Japan could probably blow at any time, it's got nice glow down there, but that would be what America syndrome.



To add to the list of ridiculous comments that need correction.....

No, japan would not ever blow up from a nuclear power plant. Nuclear power plants cannot physically cause a nuclear explosion.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by Anonbeleiver77
Vimanas-the "UFOS" of ancient India. Recorded in the Vimanika Shastra which is undoubtedly a modern version based on earlier texts,

"Undoubtedly?"

The work was channelled, and says nothing at all about anything nuclear.

The name "Vimanyka Shastra was known. It is referred to in ancient Sanskrit literature, but has never been found.

The only one we have is a version that was channelled (not copied) in the mid 20th century.

Harte



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 04:14 PM
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I live next to a quarry. Very often they let off a siren before about to do a bit of rock-blasting, with the largest explosions marked by a long siren followed by five short ones. First you hear the muffled ground thump, then there's a sharp thunderclap as the pressure wave comes through the air. There's actually a rather dusty mushroom cloud that forms.

A metallic asteroid that travels through the atmosphere is often associated with ground rumbling due to distortions in the magnetic field.

If there were a nuclear explosion in that factory, it would have been more of a "dirty bomb", which is an explosion caused by the partial detonation of the uranium rather than a complete fusion or fission explosion.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by diqiushiwojia

Firstly, mushroom clouds are often formed by nuclear explosions. (The amount of gunpowder in the factory is not enough to produce a mushroom cloud, but a nuclear explosion is.)


Mushroom clouds are formed with pretty much any large explosion. It's characteristic of Rayleigh-Taylor instabilities. I don't know how you would know if there were enough explosives present or not.



The other strange clouds (cloud 'ribbons' and clouds with strange colours) may be formed by the explosion's electromagnetic pulse ionising the atmosphere. The blinding light is also produced by nukes. As for the fireball, that appeared in Hiroshima as well.


None of this would be unusual around a fireworks plant. Colors or white flashes, and fireballs are common to any incendiary explosion.



Secondly, the amount of destruction was reasonable. The Hiroshima bomb killed 66000, while this one killed 20000. The population density was much lower in 1626 and this explosion may not be of such a great magnitude, so it makes sense.


I'm not sure I believe the accuracy of some of the observations from this period, but whatever.



Thirdly, the shock waves generated were extremely powerful. About 2.4 sq. km faced utter and total destruction. It was probably also the shock waves which removed the clothing. Shock waves may create a temporary vacuum environment which rips off any clothing that isn't stuck to the body. These shock waves are eerily similar to those of neutron bombs.


For any explosion, there are several phases to it, you've got both positive and negative overpressure waves at different times. However, there's no particular clothes-ripping aspect to the negative overpressure wave. Neutron bombs have less atmospheric effect than other thermonuclear designs.



Apart from the historical evidence above, there's another 'storyline' we could refer to as evidence of ancient nukes. In the Battle of Ningyuan, Yuan Chonghuan, a Ming general, fired at Nurhaci with a cannon, killing Nurhaci. In that battle, Yuan had



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by stormcell
If there were a nuclear explosion in that factory, it would have been more of a "dirty bomb", which is an explosion caused by the partial detonation of the uranium rather than a complete fusion or fission explosion.


There would have been no detonation at all of uranium in an explosion, partial or otherwise.

Uranium isn't very radioactive, so you couldn't make a 'dirty bomb' out of it. You generally use cesium or radium or the like for those - you want something very very active so that you get a lot of specific activity to make the area unlivable. Scattering uranium wouldn't cause anything except a temporary bit of chemical poisoning of the natives.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 07:46 PM
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Hi OP, excellent thread, you have really put together a good case with lots of good evidence


I am absolutely fascinated by these thunderstones. You mention that they were discovered earlier then someone heated them and whoopsie daisies, caused a massive explosion. This was followed by a mysterious plague that could perhaps be interpreted as radiation sickness.

I am no nuclear expert, but my basic understanding is that to cause an explosion, one simply has to start a chain reaction of exploding nuclei by sending electrons (?) flying through the middle of them. Uranium is already reactive and unstable due to the fact that it is already shedding electrons because the element has so many layers of electrons it can't retain them. I hope my memory of high school physics is serving me correctly.

So based upon the above would it not be entirely possible if one found a piece of this thunder rock and excited the electrons enough (heating is one way to get atoms jiggling around at high speed) that it could cause a nuclear explosion indeed? The explosion would be nothing like modern day nuclear bombs because the ore would not be pure, but I could see how your theory makes sense.

In the case of the gunpowder factory explosion perhaps the factory did indeed explode from the gunpowder initially, but if thunder rocks were present perhaps they could have been excited into a fission reaction. It would have been more like a 'dirty' bomb that a classic nuke that we are all used to thinking of, but a nuclear explosion of sorts nonetheless.

P.S What do you make of the ancient texts from India that report of the same thing - the city is still there today and shows remarkable similarities to what happened in Hiroshima as far as damage goes
veda.wikidot.com...
edit on 13-3-2013 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by markosity1973

I am no nuclear expert, but my basic understanding is that to cause an explosion, one simply has to start a chain reaction of exploding nuclei by sending electrons (?) flying through the middle of them. Uranium is already reactive and unstable due to the fact that it is already shedding electrons because the element has so many layers of electrons it can't retain them. I hope my memory of high school physics is serving me correctly.


Nope. Electrons don't fly through the nucleus. Although for some elements, the nucleus can reach out and grab one, or spit one out.

To get one nucleus to fiss, it has to be the right sort, and you have to hit it with a neutron (neglecting direct photo-nuclear reactions). The neutron often has to be of a particular temperature or speed, if you want fission instead of capture, depends on the isotope you're hitting.

Uranium does not 'shed electrons', although some of the decay chain does emit betas. It is not particularly unstable.




In the case of the gunpowder factory explosion perhaps the factory did indeed explode from the gunpowder initially, but if thunder rocks were present perhaps they could have been excited into a fission reaction.


Not at all.
edit on 13-3-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 

Thanks for the correction, I was unsure if it were the electrons of part of the nucleus that started it all off. I do remember now that you mention it, it was only certain isotopes that react.

But, I do remember a Victorian scientist nearly blowing up London by starting a chain reaction playing around with Uranium. He only avoided a total disaster by lowering a lead rod into whatever he was playing with.

So, perhaps it is possible that the Chinese had learned a way to refine the uranium and maybe were experimenting with it and it went horribly wrong.



posted on Mar, 13 2013 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by markosity1973
But, I do remember a Victorian scientist nearly blowing up London by starting a chain reaction playing around with Uranium. He only avoided a total disaster by lowering a lead rod into whatever he was playing with.


I think you're misremembering. Natural uranium is very very very weakly fissile, to the point that it took 40-50 tons of carefully refined natural uranium and graphite to reach critical mass, by THAT much (holds fingers a fraction of an inch apart), making only a few watts of heat.

You don't get chain reactions with natural uranium metal without a huge amount of it, and even then it gets warm, it doesn't go bang.

eta: a lead rod wouldn't have done anything - lead is effectively transparent to neutrons.



So, perhaps it is possible that the Chinese had learned a way to refine the uranium and maybe were experimenting with it and it went horribly wrong.


Again, 'refining' isn't an issue. You can easily 'refine' natural uranium ore into natural uranium metal. And then you'll find that if you have 40-50 tons of it, and a lot of amazingly pure graphite, you can get a few dozen watts of heat.

What you can't do easily is enrich it. And by 'easily', I mean it takes massive effort, advanced metallurgy, a ton of electrical power, a huge underpinning of scientific knowledge they didn't have etc, etc. Not in the realm of Victorian England, much less 17th century China.
edit on 13-3-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2013 @ 12:19 PM
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Does it describe in detail anywhere that the people's clothes were BLOWN off, or BURNED off? It makes a difference. Were radiation burns reported or just explosive effects? Was there fallout effects, the survivors being sick afterwards of strange illnesses?

And I haven't read every post but Tsar Bomba was most definitely a nuclear bomb. Seems like one post thought not.

Maybe it was an incoming comet hitting a firecracker factory that was also loaded with those new strange 'thunder stones' occurring at the same time as an underground methane deposit hiccup'ed, causing a sinkhole crater that in turn caused a .... well you get the drift.


Great thread! I continue to be amazed at the history the Chinese managed to keep such detailed records of over the centuries.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 08:47 AM
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Thanks a lot; you have input a lot to this thread.




Mushroom clouds are formed with pretty much any large explosion. It's characteristic of Rayleigh-Taylor instabilities. I don't know how you would know if there were enough explosives present or not.


I guess I just believe my sources, ha ha.



None of this would be unusual around a fireworks plant. Colors or white flashes, and fireballs are common to any incendiary explosion.

Are you sure they would cause those strange clouds?


I'm not sure I believe the accuracy of some of the observations from this period, but whatever.

I don't those were observations... I'm pretty sure they ordered somebody to investigate. They were pretty precise about the exact number of deaths (500 in this street, 500 in that...)


For any explosion, there are several phases to it, you've got both positive and negative overpressure waves at different times. However, there's no particular clothes-ripping aspect to the negative overpressure wave. Neutron bombs have less atmospheric effect than other thermonuclear designs.

Okay, okay, I give up on the neutron bomb similarity bit.
How about nuclear weapons in general? Would it be possible to rip off those poor people's clothes with any model at all?


I struggle to see how this implies nukes. Sounds like hyperbole.

It makes sense. If I remember correctly, towards the end of the Ming Dynasty, they couldn't even pay all the soldier's wages. Their army shrank quite a bit.


I don't. Sounds more like he fired the propaganda gun, and had hyperbolic explosions intended to strike fear into others.


If the canon wasn't doing all the work, what made him so confident that he could win an army that's over six times the size of his and has much higher morale?


I guess you can 'hypothesize' that aliens gave him tiny cannon-fired nukes. But why stop there? Why not have the aliens doing all the work with death rays from their UFOs? Any way you go with this, there's one or more "miracle occurs here" steps. Unless you assume the historical record isn't all that accurate.


I'm not hypothesising anything. There could be a lot of ways in which they obtained this kind of technology. With no evidence, of course nothing can be said about those, but I think it's reasonable nevertheless to look into what the explosion actually was. Like, if by some chance people do think it was a nuke, they will start looking for evidence for *how* they got them.
edit on 16/3/13 by diqiushiwojia because: (no reason given)
edit on 16/3/13 by diqiushiwojia because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by signalfire
 


As I've said earlier in the thread and in the chatroom during the ATS Live episode, there was a plague shortly afterwards. I don't know if it's related, though. I'm also pretty sure they were blown off. I don't recall reading it in any contemporary records, but tons of contemporary records record the incident and I'm far from reading them all. However, I did read in one of the websites that they were blown off; in fact, one female victim was found to be clutching on her clothes.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by diqiushiwojia

I guess I just believe my sources, ha ha.



Try a physics text that deals with R-T instability. Or go to 'google scholar' and search 'rayleigh taylor mushroom cloud', get lots of math. By the way, R-T instabilities factor into the design of nukes in several ways, it's really interesting. You also have to pay attention to it in design of things that intentionally use the Munroe effect, like shaped charge design.

eta: Here's you a nice one, free.



Are you sure they would cause those strange clouds?


Are you sure that half educated peasants wouldn't interpret them that way? Remember, the accident was widely believed to be the work of gods and/or dragons.



How about nuclear weapons in general? Would it be possible to rip off those poor people's clothes with any model at all?


Not really. You have to ask yourself - what's the mechanism for ripping clothes that's particular to a nuclear blast? And the answer is, not much. Overpressure causes air motion, if a stout wind can rip off clothing and not send a person flying as well, then that would be your answer. My take is that most clothing is better secured than that, and you'd likely be bashed to pieces by the time your clothing was mystically removed, unless they're all wearing togas.

Now, if your peasants were all wearing black clothing, you could get flash burning of the clothes and lose them that way, but then all your peasants would be crispy critters.



If the canon wasn't doing all the work, what made him so confident that he could win an army that's over six times the size of his and has much higher morale?


If the king asks you if you can win the war, the correct answer is 'yes'.



I'm not hypothesising anything. There could be a lot of ways in which they obtained this kind of technology.


Instead of invoking mystical nukes, why not go with 'it was an explosives factory'?
edit on 16-3-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by RavenSpeaks
According to This Site
conventional explosives are used to initiate the nuclear reaction in an atom bomb.
So maybe they were playing with gun powder and uranium.......



It has to be highly enriched Uranium. Just take a look at what the U.S. had to build in Tennessee to make enough for two bombs. It was the largest building at the time.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by James1982

Originally posted by OOOOOO


Japan could probably blow at any time, it's got nice glow down there, but that would be what America syndrome.



To add to the list of ridiculous comments that need correction.....

No, japan would not ever blow up from a nuclear power plant. Nuclear power plants cannot physically cause a nuclear explosion.



If the reactor melts down into the water table then you will see the largest explosion in the history of mankind. The Russians dug under their reactor to add a lot of sand to stop this from happening as well as polluting the water for most of Russia forever.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge

If the reactor melts down into the water table then you will see the largest explosion in the history of mankind. The Russians dug under their reactor to add a lot of sand to stop this from happening as well as polluting the water for most of Russia forever.


A steam/hydrogen explosion is not a nuclear detonation. Second line.





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