There is no "middle path" - only the heartless path of enabling - You are either FOR or AGAINST!

I see many conspiracy theories here and people are usually talking about "balance" and saying "it is what it is". This is redundant nonsense. In the past, when people were suffering or conspiracy theories had evidence they'll just deny it or say "I got Faith" in whatever spiritual authority they believe to be protecting them. Now, we have these so-called "New" age people saying "it is what it is" and talking about "balance". It is the same old message, be apathetic and hope that things get better. Now, I guess they are not even afraid to admit that it is all about control anymore since the popular words for spirituality nowadays seems to be "accepting" and "surrendering" and then some deceptive explanation about how "surrendering is freedom". Remember what the book 1984 said, they will trick people into believing that "freedom is slavery".

If you are not AGAINST pain and suffering, then you are FOR it. There is no "middle path" to allow people to suffer for no reason at all shows your "enabling" and "apathy" - you are NOT enlightened! How are you enlightened when your Heart/Compassion is not even working properly? If you are not helping others while they suffer, don't be surprised when nobody helps when you are in the situation. Apathy seems to be contagious.

They're FOR suffering or NOT - if they are on the "middle path" they are FOR it by enabling.
They're FOR empowering you or NOT - if they tell you to give your power away to another they are FOR it.

Turn your fear into anger, do not let others control you. Fear and Love is giving your power away, and while it is nice to Love someone, it can be blind if you are loving someone who is destructive and hateful. Those who do nothing but bring you down, why keep them in your life? Form better friendships and let old "friendships" go. Instead of putting others down to make yourself feel better, make yourself feel better so you won't have to put others down. Empower yourself, and empower others. Putting them down is working for pain and suffering.

reply to post by arpgme


Dear arpgme,

I am for pain, it is what causes us to know we are harming ourselves. My mother diabetes, it can result in you not feeling pain in your feet and that is how you damage them. Nobody likes pain; but, what other senses would skip because they are not always pleasant? How much are you willing to learn of life because pain is a part of life? I am for pain in the same way that I for pleasure and variety and love and all kinds of crazy things. Apathy is the killer, that is when you just don't care about anything and I have been there in my life.

reply to post by arpgme


Freedom is not being afraid to answer any question put to you and especially so much more true a statement if the question being put to you is from your soul mate. And that extends to her soul mate hear answers no matter how shocking and supporting her and aligning with her, and being one and the same as her decisions.

reply to post by AQuestion


I'm not talking about pain in and of itself, I'm talking about those who do not care about the suffering of others who just want to stay "zen" or "think happy thoughts" to ignore the reality and be apathetic, but I see your point.

Some people deserve to suffer.
More than that, some people need to suffer. How would we know happiness when we found it if we didn't suffer?

You paint with too broad a brush, things are not black and white.

reply to post by watchitburn


You don't need to know suffering to know its opposite. You are brainwashed if you believe so. Why would it be impossible to feel peace or happiness without pain?

Things are black and white, you are either FOR something promoting it, or AGAINST something stopping it.

If you don't care either way then you are enabling it, accepting it, and allowing it to happen so you are FOR it.

reply to post by arpgme


I guess we will just have to disagree.

I don't know I'm right. I really don't know anything. But at least I'm aware of it.

reply to post by watchitburn


I was not insulting your intelligence. I didn't mean to say that you didn't know anything I was just curious about your reasoning. I'm still open to hearing why you believe happiness cannot be without unhappiness. And what do you think about my reasoning that neutrality is stilling being for something since it is allowing it to happen without resisting it?

The middle path brings people to the place of peace, if you are not in the middle you are working the drama that drives the world, as need be mind you. It's all a game where people can play heroes or villains, the light is always winning but never wins, the dark is always losing but never losses. It creates a state of drama despite all the suffering, when you finally let go of the suffering there is intense relief, like a dream...But you can keep playing the drama as long as you wish, if you thinks it fun or righteous, it's allowed. The middle way is for when you tire of playing the drama, now or later, it doesn't matter.

For some reason people get interested in those people who seem to lack religion but are somehow are intensely spiritual, they guide people who come asking about it, it's a dialogue of reason that delves into depths of the human soul. Those on the middle path don't come looking for you, people come looking for them out of curiosity. We think they are weird somehow that they hold some ancient secret, but they have nothing to teach. What is, is, somehow that is hard to understand, though I'm entirely sure that it's not. Being the eternal moment of now is curiously slippery.

I don't claim to walk the middle path, I'm still out in the forest searching for it, clinging to it's underside perhaps. I still am the ego of me and cling to it, perhaps not entirely done with my drama yet, what I believe I really cling to still, is those things that I perceive as injustice and catching the elusive "now", the ever-changing current.

reply to post by Konoyaro


So when you find this "middle path" are you FOR or AGAINST the darkness? Are you FOR or AGAINST the light?

Or if you do not care either way, then isn't that just apathy? What is keeping order of morale if not compassion?

If suffering happens to others you just allow it to happen because "what is, is", right? Do you feel the same way about yourself? Are you accepting of such pain when it happens to you or is it a special situation where you avoid it?:

reply to post by arpgme
I will try to answer it as much as I can...I wouldn't say I'm either for the light or against the darkness, as they are opposing forces of equal strength, but either one can't exist without the other. Both are necessary and must be, otherwise we couldn't tell the one from the other.

To really understand this you must believe that all humans have the same consciousness but experience life subjectively, egos comparing themselves to each other enjoying life. Life is a dream, but a dream where we have forgotten that we are dreaming, because it's more exiting that way. It makes sense in a modern way too, in that we try to create immerse experiences such as in games, the goal has obviously always been to create a game that is so immersive that we almost can't tell the difference from reality, take Oculus Rift for example, it's a step closer, and graphics are getting damn good too.

That we have the same consciousness implies that when you die, you will be born again, not as yourself (your memories reside with your body) but someone completely different, yet exactly like you; a human. Perhaps you will die of cancer at the age of 2, suffering is spread equally as is happiness, and you will experience both suffering and happiness. Equally does not imply geographic location but just throughout the universe in general.

Anyway the middle path is just another role to play, but one that knows the workings behind the scenes, the causes of suffering and how to escape it and with dissolution ego comes a understanding that everyone are equal, therefore compassion but not meddling compassion that stirs up drama, causing suffering in the first place. Some have tried clinging to suffering as to be immune (escape) to it, hence bed of nails and such practices. But that is still clinging to something, in the ever changing now there is nothing to hang on to and that is why very few reach nirvana, the breath, relief, freedom or whatever you want to call it, it scares us that nothing is permanent that there really is nothing to cling to, no government that will always be there, no parents that will always be there, not even this moment or the earth you stand on. We humans go extraordinary lengths to preserve the illusion of permanency.

I'm not permanent perhaps I will play the hero or be brought up in place that makes me an arch villain next time, other fragments of us and our environments form us to be what we are. When we are aware of this process we can just be, but it really is hard to let go of who you were and what you are going to be in a society that condition us to think only of what isn't (past and future) instead of what is, the now.

reply to post by arpgme


I will try to explain my point of view.

Saying you are for or against something, means nothing. Actions are what count.
Lots of people are against a lot of things.
Is not someone who is against suffering and does nothing, just as culpable as someone who is for suffering?

There are actually people on this planet who thrive on suffering, it gives them a strange kind of peace for lack of a better word. Should they be denied the comfort they find in their suffering?

As was previously explained, the need for suffering to know the good when you find it.

There are people who are so sheltered/oblivious/self-centered they just can't comprehend the idea of others suffering.

My point that all these examples encompass, is that there are far too many perspectives and circumstances involved that just for/against is entirely too narrow a concept to address the topic.

From my perspective you may as well be saying you are for or against electrons.


And don't be concerned about insulting my intelligence.
My comment about not knowing anything was very vague.
I meant that I like to learn stuff, doesn't matter what it is. If it's something, I want to learn about it. I've learned lots of stuff(most of it useless). The more I learn, the more I realize that I know nothing. And I think that is applicable to humanity as a collective. In the grand scheme of things, we know nothing of consequence about how and why anything is the way it is.

Originally posted by arpgme
I see many conspiracy theories here and people are usually talking about "balance" and saying "it is what it is". This is redundant nonsense. In the past, when people were suffering or conspiracy theories had evidence they'll just deny it or say "I got Faith" in whatever spiritual authority they believe to be protecting them. Now, we have these so-called "New" age people saying "it is what it is" and talking about "balance". It is the same old message, be apathetic and hope that things get better. Now, I guess they are not even afraid to admit that it is all about control anymore since the popular words for spirituality nowadays seems to be "accepting" and "surrendering" and then some deceptive explanation about how "surrendering is freedom". Remember what the book 1984 said, they will trick people into believing that "freedom is slavery".

If you are not AGAINST pain and suffering, then you are FOR it. There is no "middle path" to allow people to suffer for no reason at all shows your "enabling" and "apathy" - you are NOT enlightened! How are you enlightened when your Heart/Compassion is not even working properly? If you are not helping others while they suffer, don't be surprised when nobody helps when you are in the situation. Apathy seems to be contagious.
...

Almost always like seeing what you have to say on a subject... At the least, your thoughts are thought-provoking.
I don't think I agree, however, with a lot of what you're saying, here -- or maybe, it's that I don't agree with the parallels...
"...How are you enlightened when your Heart/Compassion is not even working properly?..."
Is there a manual?
Are you suggesting that you can "fix" any of these "broken Heart/Compassion"'s?
Not that I have "NO Heart/Compassion"...but, I have a feeling, if you inspected mine very closely - you would call it "broken".
There is another old saying - that says, in essence - "be wise about choosing your battles".
Some of us don't have the time, ability, resources...and even, "care"...to fight every time our ire is aroused.
After seeing so much injustice, pain, hurt, greed, etc...for so long...one tends to learn to tune-it-out...unless it meets a certain set of criteria.
Going to take another blue pill, now... Everything will be better in the morning.

reply to post by watchitburn

Originally posted by watchitburn
I will try to explain my point of view.

Saying you are for or against something, means nothing. Actions are what count.

I agree with you that actions are what count, but did you think of this?

Not doing anything IS an action, it is allowing what is (suffering) to continue, in the same way that if you are playing blackjack, you can "do something" and hit, or "do nothing" and stay.

It may seem like "doing nothing" isn't an action but that is not the case.

Are you familiar with Taoism and the idea of "wei wu wei" (doing without doing)?

Originally posted by watchitburn
Is not someone who is against suffering and does nothing, just as culpable as someone who is for suffering?

There are actually people on this planet who thrive on suffering, it gives them a strange kind of peace for lack of a better word. Should they be denied the comfort they find in their suffering?

No, they should not be denied the comfort. If they like suffering then that is their choice, however, if you do nothing to protect the freedom of one who is forced to suffer against their will, then you are allowing a threat against free-will (including your own and the ones you love)...

Originally posted by watchitburn
As was previously explained, the need for suffering to know the good when you find it.

There are people who are so sheltered/oblivious/self-centered they just can't comprehend the idea of others suffering.

I agree with you here. I believe a great way to achieve this is to be grateful for even the simplest things in life. "I am happy I have a chair to sit on. I am happy I have clothes to wear. I am happy I am alive." always keeping such thoughts in the mind will remind people that all of this is a gift including life. Then by contrast, we can feel such compassion for those who do not have.

Originally posted by watchitburn
My point that all these examples encompass, is that there are far too many perspectives and circumstances involved that just for/against is entirely too narrow a concept to address the topic.

Yes, I agree. I should have clarified. I meant suffering in regard to choice: when one isn't CHOOSING suffering for themselves and it is forced upon them.

Originally posted by watchitburn
From my perspective you may as well be saying you are for or against electrons.

Electrons do not cause people to suffer against their will, not that I am aware of.

reply to post by WanDash

Originally posted by WanDash
After seeing so much injustice, pain, hurt, greed, etc...for so long...one tends to learn to tune-it-out...unless it meets a certain set of criteria.
Going to take another blue pill, now... Everything will be better in the morning.

So to be consistent, you'd have to feel the same way when it comes to your suffering and those you love, otherwise it is hypocritical and a lie that your feelings are "tuned out" - more like selective caring.

Originally posted by arpgme
...So to be consistent, you'd have to feel the same way when it comes to your suffering and those you love, otherwise it is hypocritical and a lie that your feelings are "tuned out" - more like selective caring.

Entirely incorrect. If you have only enough fuel in the tank to accomplish a measured/limited amount of work...you do not go to every fire and rumor of fire you see, hear or smell. If you did - your lifetime supply of "fuel in the tank" would be spent in your first few days/hours/weeks...and then, you'd have no fuel left for your own needs or to help others thereafter.
There are all kinds of "needs" and "injustices"...and they are all around. Even Superman would not be able to take care of everyone's "needs and injustices"...in Metropolis.
This is the scenario, as I see it - You race off to handle someone-else's pain/need/injustice...and while You're gone, another someone-else kidnaps your unattended child... As you're returning from your heroism, you find your child missing... As you seek to find your child...you hear of (or see) another pain/need/injustice...
WHAT TO DO???
Take care of what's important to you ("selective caring" - someone has called it)...or get back on your path to Buddha-hood?

reply to post by WanDash


If people actually cared enough to help then it wouldn't be "too much" because it would be a team effort. Humanity would work as ONE to keep pain and suffering at bay (heaven on earth).

reply to post by arpgme


I still disagree with your overall perspective. But that's Ok.

That's one of the great things about ATS, we can all disagree and still be civilized about it.